Game 37: Phoenix Suns (19-17) @ LA Clippers (22-13) | Monday | 8:30PM

[darealjuice]

The “Big 3s don’t work” crowd is salivating and I don’t blame them at all

[Golanator]

We might be in trouble. I don't know how you can fix this.

The easiest change is always to change coaches. Moving guys around is difficult because of the salary cap but coaching staff is outside of those limitations so we may just need to pull the plug

I think we could have a coaching staff of prime Pop, Phil Jackson and Erik Spoelstra and they would struggle with this team. The defense is a disaster. All 3 stars don't want to shoot 3's. We can't rebound. We have 3 elite mid range guys, which great, but it's still not a great shot when the other team has a layup line and shoots >50% from deep.

It's fantasy land and neither Beal (NTC) or Toronto would do this but Beal for Siakam I think would help a lot. Play KD at the 3. We need to play bigger like the Nuggets have with Jokic/Gordon/MPJ.

I love Book but I'm also ready to move past the Point Book experiment. The issue is we have no options there either.

[AtheJ415]

Beal not moving the needle. Any stats he puts up are empty because you can get the same production, if not more, from Grayson. If we had traded Ayton first, they wouldve never traded for Beal. Beal is a huge problem now because he eats up 46mil in salary and can go down at any time with the break of a nail.

Beal is the star who tries the most on defense off ball. He is the one most trying to do the little things. He attacks closeouts and doesn't try to do too much. I don't think the problem is Beal. I think the problem is the team as a whole, and especially our 2 leaders, are not taking any pride in doing the little things and KD is not a leader to begin with. He's more of a quiet dude. Book speaks his mind though, but I think he has taken too much of a backseat with KD coming here. He has to be lighting into the rest of the team and he and Vogel need to be benching every single player who does not play with full effort when on the court. Even if that's KD or Book.

[Qwigglez]

Booker ends up with 0 rebounds the last two games. Kyrie Irving is 6 foot 2 inches tall, is averaging 9 rebounds the last 4 games. I just don't understand why the effort level isn't there.

[AtheJ415]

Honest question here -- with how awful this team plays and given how we defend like we're in an exhibition all star game, if you added Steph Curry to this team, would we even be much better?

We wouldn't rebound. Wouldn't defend. It's ridiculous that we have the players we have and suck this badly.

[Golanator]

The “Big 3s don’t work” crowd is salivating and I don’t blame them at all

Big 3's can still work, but maybe not ours?

Do the Nuggets not have a big 3 with their 3 max guys? The 2021/22 Warriors also had 3 max guys (Steph, Klay, Wiggins) and Draymond almost making a max.

[Golanator]

We might be in trouble. I don't know how you can fix this.

Is it possible to fix?
Suns put all of their eggs into one basket and now the eggs are rotten. We don't have any draft capital, we don't have any youth, we don't have any cap space. A new coach might be refreshing, but we aren't getting a Tyron Lue clone.
Suns seriously need to find it within themselves. The issue is, I don't recall any team just turning things around, and while I don't think the players will resent each other, they will simply just ask to be traded. There is no accountability anymore.

Qwigglez you're supposed to make me feel better

[lilfishi22]

We might be in trouble. I don't know how you can fix this.

The easiest change is always to change coaches. Moving guys around is difficult because of the salary cap but coaching staff is outside of those limitations so we may just need to pull the plug

I think we could have a coaching staff of prime Pop, Phil Jackson and Erik Spoelstra and they would struggle with this team. The defense is a disaster. All 3 stars don't want to shoot 3's. We can't rebound. We have 3 elite mid range guys, which great, but it's still not a great shot when the other team has a layup line and shoots >50% from deep.

It's fantasy land and neither Beal (NTC) or Toronto would do this but Beal for Siakam I think would help a lot. Play KD at the 3. We need to play bigger like the Nuggets have with Jokic/Gordon/MPJ.

I love Book but I'm also ready to move past the Point Book experiment. The issue is we have no options there either.

My view now is that if we're not playing great defense anyway, we might as well try and be elite at offense. It was mentioned that Vogel's defensive schemes are complex and needs time to really get across it but I kind of think we should just simplify it as much as possible and just go all out offensively. We're not going to win many games being middle of the pack defensively and outside the top 10 offensively so we might as well throw caution to the wind and do whatever we can get to get into the top 5 in offense even at the expense of being a bottom 10 defensive team.

I don't think Vogel is the kind of coach that would endorse and run that kind of system which is why I think we may need to just make a call on his Suns tenure. I highly doubt D'Antoni is keen to get back into coaching at 72 but if we're not playing great D we might as well hand the reigns to one of the most balls to the wall offense coach in NBA history.

[Qwigglez]

Honest question here -- with how awful this team plays and given how we defend like we're in an exhibition all star game, if you added Steph Curry to this team, would we even be much better?

We wouldn't rebound. Wouldn't defend. It's ridiculous that we have the players we have and suck this badly.

Unsure if the team even enjoys playing basketball. I see people at my local gym give more effort playing basketball than the guys wearing Suns uniforms.
Would Steph Curry hold the guys accountable? I feel like that is more of a Draymond Green type role. Suns need a leader.

[Qwigglez]

We might be in trouble. I don't know how you can fix this.

Is it possible to fix?
Suns put all of their eggs into one basket and now the eggs are rotten. We don't have any draft capital, we don't have any youth, we don't have any cap space. A new coach might be refreshing, but we aren't getting a Tyron Lue clone.
Suns seriously need to find it within themselves. The issue is, I don't recall any team just turning things around, and while I don't think the players will resent each other, they will simply just ask to be traded. There is no accountability anymore.

Qwigglez you're supposed to make me feel better

I can send you a trade on Dynasty, that might cheer ya up.

[AtheJ415]

Booker ends up with 0 rebounds the last two games. Kyrie Irving is 6 foot 2 inches tall, is averaging 9 rebounds the last 4 games. I just don't understand why the effort level isn't there.

Cole Anthony is like 6'1" and is an elite rebounder.

As a team we, when we do spread the floor, have all players run back on defense the second the shot goes up. This despite not having an athletic disadvantage. We abandon offensive rebounding entirely aside from Okogie, and we do it in the dumbest way possible (unnecessarily, as we run even if the other team is not leaking out). This knocks a lot of rebounds with premium shooting % opportunities out of the game. I don't see any other team doing this schematically to this extent when I watch other teams play.

Defensively it isn't schematic though. We are supposed to get rebounds, but don't care to bang around in the paint against other guards. This was a problem even when we had CP3. I think Mikal being the 3 covered up a lot for Book in this regard. Mikal did ALL the little things for us.

Our team, including the stars, are checked out. Vogel lost this locker room a long time ago. Nobody is having fun. We have a coach who preaches no urgency and that health will solve all our problems. So we had no reason to really improve for half the season. Now everybody is healthy and maybe we'll finally recognize we can't just show up to win, but MY **** GOD, WHAT A WASTE OF HALF A SEASON TO DO THAT.

We have not improved a lick since the season started.

[Golanator]

The easiest change is always to change coaches. Moving guys around is difficult because of the salary cap but coaching staff is outside of those limitations so we may just need to pull the plug

I think we could have a coaching staff of prime Pop, Phil Jackson and Erik Spoelstra and they would struggle with this team. The defense is a disaster. All 3 stars don't want to shoot 3's. We can't rebound. We have 3 elite mid range guys, which great, but it's still not a great shot when the other team has a layup line and shoots >50% from deep.

It's fantasy land and neither Beal (NTC) or Toronto would do this but Beal for Siakam I think would help a lot. Play KD at the 3. We need to play bigger like the Nuggets have with Jokic/Gordon/MPJ.

I love Book but I'm also ready to move past the Point Book experiment. The issue is we have no options there either.

My view now is that if we're not playing great defense anyway, we might as well try and be elite at offense. It was mentioned that Vogel's defensive schemes are complex and needs time to really get across it but I kind of think we should just simplify it as much as possible and just go all out offensively. We're not going to win many games being middle of the pack defensively and outside the top 10 offensively so we might as well throw caution to the wind and do whatever we can get to get into the top 5 in offense even at the expense of being a bottom 10 defensive team.

I don't think Vogel is the kind of coach that would endorse and run that kind of system which is why I think we may need to just make a call on his Suns tenure. I highly doubt D'Antoni is keen to get back into coaching at 72 but if we're not playing great D we might as well hand the reigns to one of the most balls to the wall offense coach in NBA history.

I'm with it.

I was at the Knicks game the other week when Brunson dropped 50 (my first Suns home game in 13 years) and D'Antoni was there for the Shawn Marion Ring of Honor induction. He got a huge ovation. I could see him igniting the fanbase.

Vogel ain't it. And Kevin Young - whose offense was straight garbage last postseason and for some reason a bunch of people talked themselves into him as a legit HC candidate - is definitely not it.

[darealjuice]

The “Big 3s don’t work” crowd is salivating and I don’t blame them at all

Big 3's can still work, but maybe not ours?

Do the Nuggets not have a big 3 with their 3 max guys? The 2021/22 Warriors also had 3 max guys (Steph, Klay, Wiggins) and Draymond almost making a max.

I think it can work with the right pieces. Clippers have worked well, but they also fit together much better. We don't fit the same way.

I think of a Big 3 as 3 guys that would be the best player on a few other teams, so I don't know if I'd consider those teams in that category, but it's all in the eye of the beholder anyways.

[Golanator]

Is it possible to fix?
Suns put all of their eggs into one basket and now the eggs are rotten. We don't have any draft capital, we don't have any youth, we don't have any cap space. A new coach might be refreshing, but we aren't getting a Tyron Lue clone.
Suns seriously need to find it within themselves. The issue is, I don't recall any team just turning things around, and while I don't think the players will resent each other, they will simply just ask to be traded. There is no accountability anymore.

Qwigglez you're supposed to make me feel better

I can send you a trade on Dynasty, that might cheer ya up.

You want Rudy Gobert? Lol

[garrick]

The easiest change is always to change coaches. Moving guys around is difficult because of the salary cap but coaching staff is outside of those limitations so we may just need to pull the plug

I think we could have a coaching staff of prime Pop, Phil Jackson and Erik Spoelstra and they would struggle with this team. The defense is a disaster. All 3 stars don't want to shoot 3's. We can't rebound. We have 3 elite mid range guys, which great, but it's still not a great shot when the other team has a layup line and shoots >50% from deep.

It's fantasy land and neither Beal (NTC) or Toronto would do this but Beal for Siakam I think would help a lot. Play KD at the 3. We need to play bigger like the Nuggets have with Jokic/Gordon/MPJ.

I love Book but I'm also ready to move past the Point Book experiment. The issue is we have no options there either.

My view now is that if we're not playing great defense anyway, we might as well try and be elite at offense. It was mentioned that Vogel's defensive schemes are complex and needs time to really get across it but I kind of think we should just simplify it as much as possible and just go all out offensively. We're not going to win many games being middle of the pack defensively and outside the top 10 offensively so we might as well throw caution to the wind and do whatever we can get to get into the top 5 in offense even at the expense of being a bottom 10 defensive team.

I don't think Vogel is the kind of coach that would endorse and run that kind of system which is why I think we may need to just make a call on his Suns tenure. I highly doubt D'Antoni is keen to get back into coaching at 72 but if we're not playing great D we might as well hand the reigns to one of the most balls to the wall offense coach in NBA history.

I don't even know why Ishbia/Thomas chose Vogel as the head coach as he wasn't ever known as a great offensive coach and our roster doesn't suggest that we are going to be an elite defensive team anytime soon. It's just one of the many curious and disastrous decisions our glorious owner has made which is backfiring spectacularly.

[AtheJ415]

Honest question here -- with how awful this team plays and given how we defend like we're in an exhibition all star game, if you added Steph Curry to this team, would we even be much better?

We wouldn't rebound. Wouldn't defend. It's ridiculous that we have the players we have and suck this badly.

Unsure if the team even enjoys playing basketball. I see people at my local gym give more effort playing basketball than the guys wearing Suns uniforms.
Would Steph Curry hold the guys accountable? I feel like that is more of a Draymond Green type role. Suns need a leader.

Our team sure does laugh a lot when getting their assess kicked

[Golanator]

I think we could have a coaching staff of prime Pop, Phil Jackson and Erik Spoelstra and they would struggle with this team. The defense is a disaster. All 3 stars don't want to shoot 3's. We can't rebound. We have 3 elite mid range guys, which great, but it's still not a great shot when the other team has a layup line and shoots >50% from deep.

It's fantasy land and neither Beal (NTC) or Toronto would do this but Beal for Siakam I think would help a lot. Play KD at the 3. We need to play bigger like the Nuggets have with Jokic/Gordon/MPJ.

I love Book but I'm also ready to move past the Point Book experiment. The issue is we have no options there either.

My view now is that if we're not playing great defense anyway, we might as well try and be elite at offense. It was mentioned that Vogel's defensive schemes are complex and needs time to really get across it but I kind of think we should just simplify it as much as possible and just go all out offensively. We're not going to win many games being middle of the pack defensively and outside the top 10 offensively so we might as well throw caution to the wind and do whatever we can get to get into the top 5 in offense even at the expense of being a bottom 10 defensive team.

I don't think Vogel is the kind of coach that would endorse and run that kind of system which is why I think we may need to just make a call on his Suns tenure. I highly doubt D'Antoni is keen to get back into coaching at 72 but if we're not playing great D we might as well hand the reigns to one of the most balls to the wall offense coach in NBA history.

I don't even know why Ishbia/Thomas chose Vogel as the head coach as he wasn't ever known as a great offensive coach and our roster doesn't suggest that we are going to be an elite defensive team anytime soon. It's just one of the many curious and disastrous decisions our glorious owner has made which is backfiring spectacularly.

I bought into Vogel's "we're gonna be scrappy" BS during the preseason.

I've seen a wet paper towel be more scrappy than this team (other than Okogie...he's saved from any slander in this department)

[AtheJ415]

The NBA has to be pissed at us too. We should be the most exciting team in the league due to our offensive firepower. We absolutely suck to watch

[lilfishi22]

The “Big 3s don’t work” crowd is salivating and I don’t blame them at all

Big 3's can still work, but maybe not ours?

Do the Nuggets not have a big 3 with their 3 max guys? The 2021/22 Warriors also had 3 max guys (Steph, Klay, Wiggins) and Draymond almost making a max.

I think it can work with the right pieces. Clippers have worked well, but they also fit together much better. We don't fit the same way.

I think of a Big 3 as 3 guys that would be the best player on a few other teams, so I don't know if I'd consider those teams in that category, but it's all in the eye of the beholder anyways.

I still think this Big 3 could work. We've seen it work. I didn't think the Clippers "big 3" with WB worked well either and they were just as inconsistent as we are even when Kawhi and PG were healthy. They weren't legit until they integrated Harden and his elite playmaking into the fold. What we need is a PG (and a better offensive system) to take at least 50% of the playmaking duties away from Book so he can just go off as a scorer which is what got him to the dance.

[AtheJ415]

Vogel should be benching Nurkic at this point. His effort level to start this game was beyond inexcusable. Set an example to the rest of the team. Start Bol for a game.