2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - the calm before the storm

[Saberestar]

So with Allens' bird rights, the suns can really onlyn offer him a deal of up to 75/4 or basically around 18 million per year. Does anyone here seeing Grayson possibly getting anything more than that 18 million, or do we fully expect Ishbia to pay up to that full amount when he's already paying upwards of 79+ million? just in luxury taxes alone which will of course double under the repeater tax next season too.

Grayson, I feel is the singlest most important player to bring back. With Bol "ironically" as a close 2nd and O'neale (within reason of incurred cost) as the 3rd. Although with O'neale, I'm less concerned as there'll be a number of very very solid defensive wings that could fill his role from the draft or undrafted range at significantly lower cost.

It’s not like that.

We can offer him now an extension for at most $75M/4 years.

But in the offseason he will be an UFA and we could use his Bird Rights to offer him whatever we want, no limits.

[King4Day]

So with Allens' bird rights, the suns can really onlyn offer him a deal of up to 75/4 or basically around 18 million per year. Does anyone here seeing Grayson possibly getting anything more than that 18 million, or do we fully expect Ishbia to pay up to that full amount when he's already paying upwards of 79+ million? just in luxury taxes alone which will of course double under the repeater tax next season too.

Grayson, I feel is the singlest most important player to bring back. With Bol "ironically" as a close 2nd and O'neale (within reason of incurred cost) as the 3rd. Although with O'neale, I'm less concerned as there'll be a number of very very solid defensive wings that could fill his role from the draft or undrafted range at significantly lower cost.

Grayson's been critical to this team. Hard to see us staying afloat if we let him go. I guess we need O'Neale too. But... are we really going to pay the biggest bill in the history of the league (I reckon, haven't done the math) for a play-in team?

We'll sign these guys, even if to trade them later to recoup assets. This 2nd apron spending is only a 2-3 year thing before ownership/GM decides it's just not happening

[King4Day]

Question. And this is jumping ahead a bit. Let's say next year we flame out again.

Assuming the Nets were open to it, would you trade Booker to the Nets for our controllable picks back?
Pick swaps are basically out since we've got them tied to multiple teams.
But doing this at least allows a semi-reset.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

So with Allens' bird rights, the suns can really onlyn offer him a deal of up to 75/4 or basically around 18 million per year. Does anyone here seeing Grayson possibly getting anything more than that 18 million, or do we fully expect Ishbia to pay up to that full amount when he's already paying upwards of 79+ million? just in luxury taxes alone which will of course double under the repeater tax next season too.

Grayson, I feel is the singlest most important player to bring back. With Bol "ironically" as a close 2nd and O'neale (within reason of incurred cost) as the 3rd. Although with O'neale, I'm less concerned as there'll be a number of very very solid defensive wings that could fill his role from the draft or undrafted range at significantly lower cost.

Grayson's been critical to this team. Hard to see us staying afloat if we let him go. I guess we need O'Neale too. But... are we really going to pay the biggest bill in the history of the league (I reckon, haven't done the math) for a play-in team?

We'll sign these guys, even if to trade them later to recoup assets. This 2nd apron spending is only a 2-3 year thing before ownership/GM decides it's just not happening

Contracts at FMV usually aren't very valuable. If Grayson declines to the mean, we may end up having to surrender a pick or two if we want to avoid the tax.

I continue to vote TEAR DOWN & REBUILD. Invest the money we would have spent on the luxury tax on quality scouts (or an app that allows fans to vote for our draft pick). Drowning ourselves in sunk cost will only set us up for a bloodbath at the 2025 trade deadline.

Booker to BKN and KD to NYK is OK with me.

[bwgood77]

So with Allens' bird rights, the suns can really onlyn offer him a deal of up to 75/4 or basically around 18 million per year. Does anyone here seeing Grayson possibly getting anything more than that 18 million, or do we fully expect Ishbia to pay up to that full amount when he's already paying upwards of 79+ million? just in luxury taxes alone which will of course double under the repeater tax next season too.

Grayson, I feel is the singlest most important player to bring back. With Bol "ironically" as a close 2nd and O'neale (within reason of incurred cost) as the 3rd. Although with O'neale, I'm less concerned as there'll be a number of very very solid defensive wings that could fill his role from the draft or undrafted range at significantly lower cost.

Grayson's been critical to this team. Hard to see us staying afloat if we let him go. I guess we need O'Neale too. But... are we really going to pay the biggest bill in the history of the league (I reckon, haven't done the math) for a play-in team?

It's tough...we need Grayson. Honestly, if we could find a cheap defensive, rebounding, rim protecting C, even if he couldn't score, I'd trade Nurkic if we needed to clear cap space. Nurkic has been great but his defense probably hurts our defense the most given he plays the most important defensive position, and he can't finish well. His 3 pt shot is gone too. He gives us passing and rebounding, but I am not sure he is worth his salary. I'd love to see more of Bol Bol. Not sure he could start, but if we could get some C that could focus on rim protecting and rebounding on the cheap, and shore up our defense some, I would prefer to get rid of him over Allen. I assume some would rather deal KD or Beal or whatever but neither of those will happen. I think KD would be the most probable out of the 3, given his trade value, and a team like NY maybe really wanting him, desperate to compete, but not sure I see it, unless he wants it. I'm curious what we'd look like starting Booker/Beal/Allen/O'Neale/Nurkic or def center/Bol. I still think our offense would be great and Beal is no stranger to scoring 25-30 on solid efficiency, so I don't think our scoring would drop off much. But a KD trade is unlikely to happen so I shouldn't really get into it.

[bwgood77]

Question. And this is jumping ahead a bit. Let's say next year we flame out again.

Assuming the Nets were open to it, would you trade Booker to the Nets for out controllable picks back?
Pick swaps are basically out since we've got them tied to multiple teams.
But doing this at least allows a semi-reset.

No. We see if we can trade KD to the Knicks for a bunch of draft picks and a couple good young players and some filler like DiVincenzo and Randle. Not a Randle fan but the picks are the main thing.

They are the one team that would be desperate enough to go for KD if he's still healthy. Plus his family wants him there.

[Puff]

This franchise will never learn.

We tried going with three point guards in the past Goran, Bledsoe and IT. That was a disaster.

This year we have 2 head coaches. Numb Nuts and Booker's friend.

Why would we hire a Championship defensive coach and at the same time pay for Booker's Friend to coach him.

Who in the world is the team/Booker listening to. It apparently is not numb nuts.

I know it is not popular but the one constant in our previous playoff flame outs and the current struggles is Booker.

We all need to wake up to that fact.

Do both Booker and KD make the Olympic team if we do not make the playoffs this year?

Booker certainly has not been legendary.

[bwgood77]

This franchise will never learn.

We tried going with three point guards in the past Goran, Bledsoe and IT. That was a disaster.

This year we have 2 head coaches. Numb Nuts and Booker's friend.

Why would we hire a Championship defensive coach and at the same time pay for Booker's Friend to coach him.

Who in the world is the team/Booker listening to. It apparently is not numb nuts.

I know it is not popular but the one constant in our previous playoff flame outs and the current struggles is Booker.

We all need to wake up to that fact.

Do both Booker and KD make the Olympic team if we do not make the playoffs this year?

Booker certainly has not been legendary.

I don't see it happening, at least not in the near future, but I wonder if Ishbia would consider trading Book considering he wasn't the owner when he drafted him, etc. It's also easier to get a great GM if and maybe an up and comer coach if you do a rebuild. I am sure people don't want another rebuild, but given how tough the west is getting, will we turn into an old treadmill team with no picks, as our "stars" get older and lose value? I feel like we could get a monster return for Book.

I don't see it happening due to his popularity. I'm not even sure he is eligible with his supermax starting next year.

[bwgood77]

Landale doing work in Houston....

The Rockets have outscored opponents by 92 points in Landale's 166 minutes, and he ranks second on the team in plus-minus during that span behind only Green (plus-131).

[lilfishi22]

Question. And this is jumping ahead a bit. Let's say next year we flame out again.

Assuming the Nets were open to it, would you trade Booker to the Nets for out controllable picks back?
Pick swaps are basically out since we've got them tied to multiple teams.
But doing this at least allows a semi-reset.

This line of thinking was mentioned I think on a podcast maybe a year or so ago. The conversation was around ring culture these days and how teams are more motivated than ever to go all in with assets/picks because the thinking is that if it doesn't work, you can trade those big pieces again to get some assets back for a rebuild/semi-reset.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Question. And this is jumping ahead a bit. Let's say next year we flame out again.

Assuming the Nets were open to it, would you trade Booker to the Nets for out controllable picks back?
Pick swaps are basically out since we've got them tied to multiple teams.
But doing this at least allows a semi-reset.

Just for our controllable picks back alone as the centerpiece of a deal? I'd have to say absolutely not! It really depends upon what players and salaries would also be coming back additionally?

For me, I'd at the very least want something back along the lines of either:

1- Book for Bridges/Johnson/Thomas/Sharpe/ PHX 25 1st/ PHX 27 1st/ 2029 DAL 1st.

2- (Salary Dump) "blow it all up" scenario:
Simmons $40 million expiring/ Cam Thomas/Day'ron Sharpe/ PHX 25 1st/ PHX 27' 1st/ Philly 27' 1st (1-8 protected)/ DAL 29' 1st.

So basically Simmons 40 million expiring, two young talents in Thomas and Sharpe, And 4 premium 1sts. ***Then I'd look to offload Simmons expiring to a team in need of cap relief for more young players and assets. And I'd trade KD to either OKC or New York for even more young players and draft assets, and IF Beal then decides that he doesn't really want a long rebuild, and is willing to waive his "No trade clause", I'd look to trade him to a team for whatever we could get back? Seeing as Miami did previously have some interest in him before he decided to come here and they switched to pursuing Lillard whom they ultimately lost out on, Maybe we could trade Beal there to give them another big name, and we'd take back:

Beal/Roddy/Eubanks for Herro (29 million)/ Rozier ( 24.9 million)/ Orlando Robinson/ LAL/26' 2nd. Not truly great! But at least we'd break up Beals' $50 million into multiple younger players/contracts that would be tradable compared to his. Herro could be our young Booker replacement (Book 2.0)?? Rozier could be our somewhat cheaper starting scoring guard (sans the injuries), And Orlando Robinson is a very promising and talented, versatile young 7'0 4/5 big man project. The draft asset package that Miami has truly sucks, but perhaps we could finaggle a 1st from them on draft night per stepien rules (they'll make the selection for us). Maybe ask for 2026 or 27' perhaps.

And of course we get the bulk of our rebuild assets from trading KD to OKC or New York, and the Book trade to BRK?

1- KD Trade- (To OKC)
KD for Dort/Giddey/ Dieng/ Wiggins/ Miami 25' 1st ( 1-14 protected), DENV 27' (1-5 protected)/ OKC 27' 1st/ MIL 28' 2nd.

2- Book Trade- (Brooklyn or New York)
IF Brooklyn:
Book for Bridges/ Johnson/ Sharpe/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st/ 29' DAL 1st.

IF New York:
Book for Randle/Bojan (20 million expiring)/ 25' Wash 1st (1-10 protected)/ MIL 25' 1st (1-4 protected)/ NYK 27' 1st/ BRK 25' 2nd/ 29' 2nd (via Indy or Wash).

Beal Trade: (To Miami)
(Beal waives his trade clause)
Beal/Roddy/Eubanks for Herro/Rozier/ Orlando Robinson/ Miami 29' 1st/ LAL 26' 2nd (no protections).

[KdoubleDees23]

Man - Ya'll hate Ayton , but he was on a winning team!!! Not a play-in team!

GO NURKIC

[lilfishi22]

This franchise will never learn.

We tried going with three point guards in the past Goran, Bledsoe and IT. That was a disaster. This was the result of getting IT as a backup plan because we weren't sure if we could resign Bledsoe. Bledsoe ended up resigning and we were left with 3 PGs. It wasn't intentional.

This year we have 2 head coaches. Numb Nuts and Booker's friend. The thought there was one guy would be in charge of defense and another for offense. It clearly hasn't worked out but a lot of teams do have a HC who's not as good at a certain aspect of the game and has associate HC's/assistant coaches who fill that gap. Not uncommon.

Why would we hire a Championship defensive coach and at the same time pay for Booker's Friend to coach him. See above

Who in the world is the team/Booker listening to. It apparently is not numb nuts. Who knows.

I know it is not popular but the one constant in our previous playoff flame outs and the current struggles is Booker. He's also the one constant that has been part of a team that has elevated itself to contender status from half a decade at the bottom of the league. Give the guy some credit

We all need to wake up to that fact.

Do both Booker and KD make the Olympic team if we do not make the playoffs this year? Pretty sure making the playoffs and the Olympic team isn't really connected.

Booker certainly has not been legendary. He's already a Suns legend. Maybe that means nothing to you

A few points

[Slim Charless]

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt? Who are they? Bartlestein and his boy?

He's been brought up a lot to pair with Book in the past, but hard to find post. Here is some discussion...

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1815466&start=500#p73744708

For the record, the problem with the Beal/Booker backcourt besides health is the lack of playmaking and defense.

That's why BW I constantly bring up OKC as a perfect team for a KD trade. They'd have to give up Dort and Giddey who together could play next to the Book/Beal combo nicely. Dort could even come off the bench and be ready to start when/if the other 2 can't play. Giddey's playmaking and passing ability would be a Godsend on this team and his lack of shooting won't kill us playing next to Brad and Devin.

[Slim Charless]

Man - Ya'll hate Ayton , but he was on a winning team!!! Not a play-in team!

GO NURKIC

Nurk needs to be traded at the earliest possibility. It's what's known as selling high on your stock. His will never be higher than it is right now.

We can get a 1st and/or a good young player from a team that needs his size, rebounding and toughness. There's no reason why he should be on the team come October. He's our only assest that another team would want (outside of Book and KD)

[Ghost of Kleine]

Question. And this is jumping ahead a bit. Let's say next year we flame out again.

Assuming the Nets were open to it, would you trade Booker to the Nets for out controllable picks back?
Pick swaps are basically out since we've got them tied to multiple teams.
But doing this at least allows a semi-reset.

No. We see if we can trade KD to the Knicks for a bunch of draft picks and a couple good young players and some filler like DiVincenzo and Randle. Not a Randle fan but the picks are the main thing.

They are the one team that would be desperate enough to go for KD if he's still healthy. Plus his family wants him there.

I believe (at least to me personally) that Randles' value to us coming back in the trade would be in that playing alongside of Nurkic, we'd have two big, strong, PHYSICAL aggressive, full effort/high motor bigs at the 4 and the 5 that not only could both average a double/double, but both could also iniate an offense and facilitate through the frontcourt to help take pressure off of Beal/Book having to focus heavily on playmaking from the backcourt, allowing them both instead to focus more on scoring. In having a starting 5 (post trade) of maybe Beal / Book / Allen / Randle / Nurkic, we could still stay pretty competitive, while banking away a cache of young talent and draft picks from the KD trade. Then we should use our draft pick on Ryan Dunn to be our 6'8 non stop motor ELITE LOCKDOWN DEFENSIVE WING and our starting lineup can get even stronger and more balanced. Now I'd prefer Bojan Bogdanovich coming back as a 20 million expiring to help us absorb retaining both Allen/O'neale, but it's not a deal breaker to take back DiVincenzo instead (although I think he's a bit redundant if we're bringing back Allen, unless he'll replace Gordons' role)?? Anyways, .................. Post KD (New York trade):

Beal/ Book/ Dunn/ Randle/ Nurkic.
Allen/ O'neale/ Bol/ Dunn/ Undrafted 4/5.
Gordon/ Lee/ Okogie/ Undrafted 4/5/ Eubanks.

- 25' Wash 1st (1-10 protected).
- 25' MIL 1st (1-4 protected).
- 27' NYK 1st.
** I focused primarily on the 25' draft because it's flush with high end talent throughout with an increased chance of landing a potential star or at the very least a high end starter/ high level impact rotation player??
https://nbadraftroom.com/2025-nba-mock-draft/

[bwgood77]

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt? Who are they? Bartlestein and his boy?

He's been brought up a lot to pair with Book in the past, but hard to find post. Here is some discussion...

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1815466&start=500#p73744708

For the record, the problem with the Beal/Booker backcourt besides health is the lack of playmaking and defense.

Back when people brought it up all the time I wasn't sure about it mostly because of the defense. I thought offensively it would work fine.

However, since then, both have become much better defenders. They are not great, but can be fairly solid.

As far as playmaking, two games ago they had a combined 21 assists. Against Phillyh they had 18. They are averaging at least 15 combined assists over the last 20 or 30 games.

[bwgood77]

Man - Ya'll hate Ayton , but he was on a winning team!!! Not a play-in team!

GO NURKIC

Nurk needs to be traded at the earliest possibility. It's what's known as selling high on your stock. His will never be higher than it is right now.

We can get a 1st and/or a good young player from a team that needs his size, rebounding and toughness. There's no reason why he should be on the team come October. He's our only assest that another team would want (outside of Book and KD)

Nobodies going to give us a first and a good young player for Nurk. Or I'd be surprised if they did. Not sure who would.

[KdoubleDees23]

TBH - Give me the Ayton, Bridges, CamJo, Booker team over this crap any day of the week.

[SunsRback4Good]

TBH - Give me the Ayton, Bridges, CamJo, Booker team over this crap any day of the week.

Is that your final answer?