2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - the calm before the storm

[sunsbg]

Play in is almost guaranteed but if I had to bet I would put money on Suns having to win two games to qualify for the playoffs after Lakers overtake us in the standings.

It's unfortunate Beal's contract is with no trade clause. Not sure if there is another team which would want that contract, probably not, but in theory that's 5 10M players to fill the bench. So what's left is to consider trading one of Nurk or Allen for better fitting players around Big 3. Read defensive players. Both have played great for this team, but mainly on offense as it's easy to see they are targeted on the other end. So my fix for this team is draft the best prospect and split one of those two contracts into two others targeting a PG and defense.

[Puff]

I have been suggesting for a while that our real issue was if we were going to make the Play-in. Most have been buying the thought that this team with had a good chance to avoid to Play-in.

With this coach, with this team's attitude, with our injuries and with our schedule I do not see a game that we will be the favorite. I can see us going 2 & 8. Both the Lakers and GS will pass us and the way the Rockets are playing they may pass all of us.

I repeat. We are not a lock for even the Play in.

Maybe Monty was not the problem. Who was/is the problem? Something is seriously wrong behind the scenes. We can no longer blame Ayton. What is it?

Is this the worst 14 month period in the history of this franchise?

I also repeat that I think the biggest issue not counting Vogel is that they really do not like each other. They just go through the motions to collect paycheck. Prior to Durant, they really liked each other and were a likable team to watch.

[SunsRback4Good]

At this particular moment we all miss Monty even Slim wants him back. But the bottom line is Vogul is our coach until Ishbia fires his azz and brings in a coach that has the respect of his players. You can tell that Phoenix is running through the motions like Puff said and are just collecting paychecks. They don’t enjoy playing together as a unit it’s easily seen on the court. Something drastic has to be done moving forward towards next season or a repeat will continue and nobody wants to see that again.

Secreast out!

[Frank Lee]

Jeezus Ghost…. That was a dismal outlook on the up coming off season/future in general. Nothing i wasnt expecting but reading it is like a ‘dear john’ written in blood.

I was already edging myself to the door with the nba (at least as an emotionally invested fan) … but sheesh, i didn’t really need a boot in the ass like that. It will be a remarkable feat for this team to be competitive over the next 3-4 years.

Rah Rah Mat shite his pants in his debut… then soiled himself again trying to hide the stain.

Those calling for apologies from the dwindling optimistic crowd ought to direct their ‘I told ya so’ ire upward. TheMadMatter snatched away a significant portion of our entertainment. F him and his bottomless wallet and delusional enthusiasm.

[Calvin Klein]

Maybe Monty was not the problem. Who was/is the problem? Something is seriously wrong behind the scenes. We can no longer blame Ayton. What is it?
.

Did we really have a "problem"? We went to the Finals, had the best record in franchise history, and were first in the west prior to injuries in 2022-23.

I don't think we had a problem, unless not winning a ring is a problem. I think we were pretty **** good. And the core was young so they could keep improving. Changing the coach, moving Ayton and getting a decent PG to replace CP's minutes was required. Everything else was stupid, attention seeking BS.

[Calvin Klein]

Jeezus Ghost…. That was a dismal outlook on the up coming off season/future in general. Nothing i wasnt expecting but reading it is like a ‘dear john’ written in blood.

I was already edging myself to the door with the nba (at least as an emotionally invested fan) … but sheesh, i didn’t really need a boot in the ass like that. It will be a remarkable feat for this team to be competitive over the next 3-4 years.

Rah Rah Mat shite his pants in his debut… then soiled himself again trying to hide the stain.

Those calling for apologies from the dwindling optimistic crowd ought to direct their ‘I told ya so’ ire upward. TheMadMatter snatched away a significant portion of our entertainment. F him and his bottomless wallet and delusional enthusiasm.

it's quite amazing how most fans don't direct their anger towards him. People prefer **** on the coach, the GM and the players when it's clear as day who the most responsible person behind this mess is.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Play in is almost guaranteed but if I had to bet I would put money on Suns having to win two games to qualify for the playoffs after Lakers overtake us in the standings.

It's unfortunate Beal's contract is with no trade clause. Not sure if there is another team which would want that contract, probably not, but in theory that's 5 10M players to fill the bench. So what's left is to consider trading one of Nurk or Allen for better fitting players around Big 3. Read defensive players. Both have played great for this team, but mainly on offense as it's easy to see they are targeted on the other end. So my fix for this team is draft the best prospect and split one of those two contracts into two others targeting a PG and defense.

I remember talking with Fishi about wanting to trade for Thybulle from the 76ers so he could roam defensively and help lock down the perimeter, and was rebuked politely with we already have Okogie who's identical. And I mentioned that if one was good for our defense, then two would be even better to reduce the number of threes the opposition effectively takes against us. Nothing came of that of course and the blazers added him in a 3 team deal only giving up a 2nd and a young average minimum salary player in that trade. I'd ask, what did we not have to trade for that 1ST TEAM ALL DEFENSIVE WING again? And how many teams have just killed us from three while our players just stand there and watch.

I also remember soapboxing a bit for a backup center with size, athleticism and physicality that could protect the rim, and even gave numerous decent unsigned options readily available and nothing happens there either. And how many times have the opposition beat us with easy buckets in the paint and at/around the rim. And with Nurkic possibly missing some time, that's only likely to get exploited even more. My point in this is NOT to try and take any victory laps for being accurate or right, but to importantly point out that if an average fan can see these obvious issues that should be considered important enough to actually address, then why is it that our front office GM, scouts and talent evaluators/consultants realize this and actually prioritize addressing or shoring up these issues so maybe just maybe these glaring weaknesses won't be easily exploited to our detriment.

FWIW, I definitely don't think our future is doomed! BUT due to poor planning with regard to the valuation of the amount of assets we surrendered in these trades to build our "paper dominant super team," as well as very poor planning on our post Vogel hiring acquisition of bottom tier garbage time offensive players with intent for the coach to somehow make them lockdown defensive players for the first time in their entire careers. We have some very difficult choices that WILL HAVE TO be made in order to turn this thing around. And those choices must be made no later than by next seasons' trade deadline to recover any value whatsoever towards correction.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Jeezus Ghost…. That was a dismal outlook on the up coming off season/future in general. Nothing i wasnt expecting but reading it is like a ‘dear john’ written in blood.

I was already edging myself to the door with the nba (at least as an emotionally invested fan) … but sheesh, i didn’t really need a boot in the ass like that. It will be a remarkable feat for this team to be competitive over the next 3-4 years.

Rah Rah Mat shite his pants in his debut… then soiled himself again trying to hide the stain.

Those calling for apologies from the dwindling optimistic crowd ought to direct their ‘I told ya so’ ire upward. TheMadMatter snatched away a significant portion of our entertainment. F him and his bottomless wallet and delusional enthusiasm.

Sorry man! Was this in reference to my 4 points post on why we're struggling mightily??? Honestly, I don't think our future is totally and completely doomed even though I'm sticking to my amatuer prognostication of our team finishing around 46/36 with a first round exit, or maybe IF incredibly lucky, miraculously sneaking our way into the 2nd round by virtue of fluke occurance that really has nothing to do with us actually getting our act together as much as an anomalous outcome of the opposition struggling at the right moment for us to capitalize. But then we'll get booted out of the playoffs handily as we low key collapse from our unaddressed/exploited weaknesses.

BUT there is hope! FWIW, as I mentioned early in my reply, I don't believe that our future is completely doomed or even lost, although to correct things, and get things back on track and headed in the right direction, we'll ABSOLUTELY need to set a concrete deadline for these tough decisions, and that deadline (line in the sand) is next seasons' trade deadline (the start too not the end) and those obvious tough choices will include names like Kevin Durant, Jusuf Nurkic, Grayson Allen, Royce O'neale and maybe just maybe even Devin Booker himself. We'll have to consider some really tough choices, But IF we're openminded and receptive to a possible fresh start rather than a continual low end disapppointing outcome for the next 5-7 years, then we CAN actually reverse alot of the damage that has been done by overzealous impulses. We'll have to make some really tough choices very soon, but making those choices could put us back on a timeline similar to the thunder and other young promising teams that are actually fun to watch and have legit options/assets going forward.

[Slim Charless]

At this particular moment we all miss Monty even Slim wants him back. But the bottom line is Vogul is our coach until Ishbia fires his azz and brings in a coach that has the respect of his players. You can tell that Phoenix is running through the motions like Puff said and are just collecting paychecks. They don’t enjoy playing together as a unit it’s easily seen on the court. Something drastic has to be done moving forward towards next season or a repeat will continue and nobody wants to see that again.

Secreast out!

The fucckk?

Moronty sucks. Never forget that. Ever. Terrible take.

[bwgood77]

I'm nearly done with our current team. Maybe my most unliked team as a Suns fan since '93.

Let' see if we get our sh*t together in this brutal closing stretch. If so, a deep playoff run incoming. If not, our season ends very soon. Could not be soon enough for me.

I don't find it super unlikable, but it is, of course, compared to the last 4 years or so, since the bubble year and Rubio.

It was not more fun watching Bender, Jackson, Chriss, Tyler Johnson, etc.

However, I do with Book would have not been so eager to play with the old injury prone KD and realized what he had with Bridges and Cam was something special. Sure, move on from Ayton. Time to move on from Paul and Shamet, and not one person expected we would be able to get a player like Beal.

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt over the years. Keep smart young players in Mikal and Cam, deal Ayton, have two great combo players in Book and Beal for the scoring, Mikal as a 3rd option, Cam as the 3 pt threat, trade Jae for Allen, trade Ayton for another C.

And have all our draft picks...maybe make smaller moves but keep players in development to sustain us....find one or two diamonds in the rough...beef up scouting.

I wonder if Book could go back in time and undo the KD trade, if he would.

[Slim Charless]

I'm nearly done with our current team. Maybe my most unliked team as a Suns fan since '93.

Let' see if we get our sh*t together in this brutal closing stretch. If so, a deep playoff run incoming. If not, our season ends very soon. Could not be soon enough for me.

I don't find it super unlikable, but it is, of course, compared to the last 4 years or so, since the bubble year and Rubio.

It was not more fun watching Bender, Jackson, Chriss, Tyler Johnson, etc.

However, I do with Book would have not been so eager to play with the old injury prone KD and realized what he had with Bridges and Cam was something special. Sure, move on from Ayton. Time to move on from Paul and Shamet, and not one person expected we would be able to get a player like Beal.

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt over the years. Keep smart young players in Mikal and Cam, deal Ayton, have two great combo players in Book and Beal for the scoring, Mikal as a 3rd option, Cam as the 3 pt threat, trade Jae for Allen, trade Ayton for another C.

And have all our draft picks...maybe make smaller moves but keep players in development to sustain us....find one or two diamonds in the rough...beef up scouting.

I wonder if Book could go back in time and undo the KD trade, if he would.

Booker had nothing to do with it.....? I think you mean if Ish could do it over again would he. Which I imagine he probably would.

[bwgood77]

Maybe Monty was not the problem. Who was/is the problem? Something is seriously wrong behind the scenes. We can no longer blame Ayton. What is it?
.

Did we really have a "problem"? We went to the Finals, had the best record in franchise history, and were first in the west prior to injuries in 2022-23.

I don't think we had a problem, unless not winning a ring is a problem. I think we were pretty **** good. And the core was young so they could keep improving. Changing the coach, moving Ayton and getting a decent PG to replace CP's minutes was required. Everything else was stupid, attention seeking BS.

Losing to Dallas in the game 7 was horrendous, but we were in control of that series, before Paul lost his mojo, likely due to the hip injury, since his midrange game disappeared, he frustratingly fouled out in one game, had more turnovers than assists in another, resorted to a 3 pt spot up shooter, was picked on by Luka since he was obviously hampered.

Good teams lose series...Denver did, Milwaukee did....they had disappointing seasons on their way to championships..they made more minor moves.

Replace CP3 and Shamet with Beal...do some sort of Ayton and Crowder trade.....make some changes, use your draft picks. We could have sustained quite a bit better. Maybe we take a slight step back but retain a brighter future by far.

[bwgood77]

I'm nearly done with our current team. Maybe my most unliked team as a Suns fan since '93.

Let' see if we get our sh*t together in this brutal closing stretch. If so, a deep playoff run incoming. If not, our season ends very soon. Could not be soon enough for me.

I don't find it super unlikable, but it is, of course, compared to the last 4 years or so, since the bubble year and Rubio.

It was not more fun watching Bender, Jackson, Chriss, Tyler Johnson, etc.

However, I do with Book would have not been so eager to play with the old injury prone KD and realized what he had with Bridges and Cam was something special. Sure, move on from Ayton. Time to move on from Paul and Shamet, and not one person expected we would be able to get a player like Beal.

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt over the years. Keep smart young players in Mikal and Cam, deal Ayton, have two great combo players in Book and Beal for the scoring, Mikal as a 3rd option, Cam as the 3 pt threat, trade Jae for Allen, trade Ayton for another C.

And have all our draft picks...maybe make smaller moves but keep players in development to sustain us....find one or two diamonds in the rough...beef up scouting.

I wonder if Book could go back in time and undo the KD trade, if he would.

Booker had nothing to do with it.....? I think you mean if Ish could do it over again would he. Which I imagine he probably would.

Yeah, Ish pulled the trigger but no doubt Book was all over wanting KD. I am not sure he realized it was going to cost Mikal...but I think he was pushing to get KD.

[Stix]

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt? Who are they? Bartlestein and his boy?

[spanishninja]

Maybe Monty was not the problem. Who was/is the problem? Something is seriously wrong behind the scenes. We can no longer blame Ayton. What is it?
.

Did we really have a "problem"? We went to the Finals, had the best record in franchise history, and were first in the west prior to injuries in 2022-23.

I don't think we had a problem, unless not winning a ring is a problem. I think we were pretty **** good. And the core was young so they could keep improving. Changing the coach, moving Ayton and getting a decent PG to replace CP's minutes was required. Everything else was stupid, attention seeking BS.

Losing to Dallas in the game 7 was horrendous, but we were in control of that series, before Paul lost his mojo, likely due to the hip injury, since his midrange game disappeared, he frustratingly fouled out in one game, had more turnovers than assists in another, resorted to a 3 pt spot up shooter, was picked on by Luka since he was obviously hampered.

Good teams lose series...Denver did, Milwaukee did....they had disappointing seasons on their way to championships..they made more minor moves.

Replace CP3 and Shamet with Beal...do some sort of Ayton and Crowder trade.....make some changes, use your draft picks. We could have sustained quite a bit better. Maybe we take a slight step back but retain a brighter future by far.

Denver did not really make a ton of moves. They simply got healthy. And Milwaukee's moves were not "minor" lol. Trading the farm for Lillard and then also having three head coaches this season? not minor at all.

[bwgood77]

Did we really have a "problem"? We went to the Finals, had the best record in franchise history, and were first in the west prior to injuries in 2022-23.

I don't think we had a problem, unless not winning a ring is a problem. I think we were pretty **** good. And the core was young so they could keep improving. Changing the coach, moving Ayton and getting a decent PG to replace CP's minutes was required. Everything else was stupid, attention seeking BS.

Losing to Dallas in the game 7 was horrendous, but we were in control of that series, before Paul lost his mojo, likely due to the hip injury, since his midrange game disappeared, he frustratingly fouled out in one game, had more turnovers than assists in another, resorted to a 3 pt spot up shooter, was picked on by Luka since he was obviously hampered.

Good teams lose series...Denver did, Milwaukee did....they had disappointing seasons on their way to championships..they made more minor moves.

Replace CP3 and Shamet with Beal...do some sort of Ayton and Crowder trade.....make some changes, use your draft picks. We could have sustained quite a bit better. Maybe we take a slight step back but retain a brighter future by far.

Denver did not really make a ton of moves. They simply got healthy. And Milwaukee's moves were not "minor" lol. Trading the farm for Lillard and then also having three head coaches this season? not minor at all.

No, I meant when they traded for Jrue. It was a big impactful move but it wasn't trading 4 picks or something for an average star.

After Denver made the WCF in the bubble, they have gotten rid of Will Barton, Gary Harris, Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap and Torrey Craig and added Aaron Gordon, KCP last year, Bruce Brown, etc.

[Ghost of Kleine]

So with Allens' bird rights, the suns can really onlyn offer him a deal of up to 75/4 or basically around 18 million per year. Does anyone here seeing Grayson possibly getting anything more than that 18 million, or do we fully expect Ishbia to pay up to that full amount when he's already paying upwards of 79+ million? just in luxury taxes alone which will of course double under the repeater tax next season too.

Grayson, I feel is the singlest most important player to bring back. With Bol "ironically" as a close 2nd and O'neale (within reason of incurred cost) as the 3rd. Although with O'neale, I'm less concerned as there'll be a number of very very solid defensive wings that could fill his role from the draft or undrafted range at significantly lower cost.

[bwgood77]

Many dreamed of a Beal/Booker backcourt? Who are they? Bartlestein and his boy?

He's been brought up a lot to pair with Book in the past, but hard to find post. Here is some discussion...

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1815466&start=500#p73744708

[spanishninja]

Losing to Dallas in the game 7 was horrendous, but we were in control of that series, before Paul lost his mojo, likely due to the hip injury, since his midrange game disappeared, he frustratingly fouled out in one game, had more turnovers than assists in another, resorted to a 3 pt spot up shooter, was picked on by Luka since he was obviously hampered.

Good teams lose series...Denver did, Milwaukee did....they had disappointing seasons on their way to championships..they made more minor moves.

Replace CP3 and Shamet with Beal...do some sort of Ayton and Crowder trade.....make some changes, use your draft picks. We could have sustained quite a bit better. Maybe we take a slight step back but retain a brighter future by far.

Denver did not really make a ton of moves. They simply got healthy. And Milwaukee's moves were not "minor" lol. Trading the farm for Lillard and then also having three head coaches this season? not minor at all.

No, I meant when they traded for Jrue. It was a big impactful move but it wasn't trading 4 picks or something for an average star.

After Denver made the WCF in the bubble, they have gotten rid of Will Barton, Gary Harris, Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap and Torrey Craig and added Aaron Gordon, KCP last year, Bruce Brown, etc.

ah, I was thinking of the wrong years lol.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

So with Allens' bird rights, the suns can really onlyn offer him a deal of up to 75/4 or basically around 18 million per year. Does anyone here seeing Grayson possibly getting anything more than that 18 million, or do we fully expect Ishbia to pay up to that full amount when he's already paying upwards of 79+ million? just in luxury taxes alone which will of course double under the repeater tax next season too.

Grayson, I feel is the singlest most important player to bring back. With Bol "ironically" as a close 2nd and O'neale (within reason of incurred cost) as the 3rd. Although with O'neale, I'm less concerned as there'll be a number of very very solid defensive wings that could fill his role from the draft or undrafted range at significantly lower cost.

Grayson's been critical to this team. Hard to see us staying afloat if we let him go. I guess we need O'Neale too. But... are we really going to pay the biggest bill in the history of the league (I reckon, haven't done the math) for a play-in team?