WWE General Discussion II

[Ruzious]

I've no idea how invested they are on Ember on RAW right now. The RAW women's division seems basically an afterthought outside of those involved with the Ronda stuff.

Let's be honest...Ember is the wrong color to get anything other than a "time served" title reign like Naomi got.

She's the most talented female wrestler on Raw, but it won't matter. She'll get a title reign or two if she's lucky but that's it.

Why, she's not Asian?

I think I'd give the WWE a little more time before calling them racist in how they've used Ember, and if you're calling them racist in how they've used Naomi, I think that's way off. Ember's one of the best 5 foot tall female wrestlers in the world, but I would not put her in Charlotte Flair's class at this point.

I think being the world's biggest Ember Moon fan has clouded your judgment.

[improper]

Why, she's not Asian?

I think I'd give the WWE a little more time before calling them racist in how they've used Ember, and if you're calling them racist in how they've used Naomi, I think that's way off. Ember's one of the best 5 foot tall female wrestlers in the world, but I would not put her in Charlotte Flair's class at this point.

I think being the world's biggest Ember Moon fan has clouded your judgment.

You think I'm the world's biggest Ember Moon fan? She's like, not even in my top five female wrestlers right now unless we're solely talking work rate.

But WWE has a very obvious history of not putting titles on black wrestlers, or really non-white wrestlers in general, with any type of consistency. I don't think that changes until Vince is gone. He prefers his girls blonde and white, and so that's who gets the bulk of the womens' titles. That's why Carmella has the Smackdown title instead of Asuka, and that's why Bliss has held belts for almost an entire year now despite defending them at a similar rate to Brock Lesnar.

Also, Ember is a better worker than Charlotte, and I don't think either really offers much outside of the ring. Charlotte is no better than Ember on the mic (neither is impressive) and neither has a very distinct character. Charlotte's character is basically "Ric Flair's daughter" and I honestly have no idea what Ember's character is supposed to be. Ember moves a lot more fluidly in the ring, though, and she's more impressive overall as a worker.

[Ruzious]

Why, she's not Asian?

I think I'd give the WWE a little more time before calling them racist in how they've used Ember, and if you're calling them racist in how they've used Naomi, I think that's way off. Ember's one of the best 5 foot tall female wrestlers in the world, but I would not put her in Charlotte Flair's class at this point.

I think being the world's biggest Ember Moon fan has clouded your judgment.

You think I'm the world's biggest Ember Moon fan? She's like, not even in my top five female wrestlers right now unless we're solely talking work rate.

But WWE has a very obvious history of not putting titles on black wrestlers, or really non-white wrestlers in general, with any type of consistency. I don't think that changes until Vince is gone. He prefers his girls blonde and white, and so that's who gets the bulk of the womens' titles. That's why Carmella has the Smackdown title instead of Asuka, and that's why Bliss has held belts for almost an entire year now despite defending them at a similar rate to Brock Lesnar.

Also, Ember is a better worker than Charlotte, and I don't think either really offers much outside of the ring. Charlotte is no better than Ember on the mic (neither is impressive) and neither has a very distinct character. Charlotte's character is basically "Ric Flair's daughter" and I honestly have no idea what Ember's character is supposed to be. Ember moves a lot more fluidly in the ring, though, and she's more impressive overall as a worker.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but you've brought her name up an inordinate number of times to praise her ability as being top 2 in the WWE. And she is definitely not in Charlotte's class as a pro wrestler at this point - not in the same neighborhood. Charlotte could very well end up going down in history as the top female wrestler of all time. Ember just got to the main roster. She's got very good potential - as do many others.

[improper]

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but you've brought her name up an inordinate number of times to praise her ability as being top 2 in the WWE. And she is definitely not in Charlotte's class as a pro wrestler at this point - not in the same neighborhood. Charlotte could very well end up going down in history as the top female wrestler of all time. Ember just got to the main roster. She's got very good potential - as do many others.

I bring her up because, as far as work rate goes, I do think she's second in the WWE (including NXT) besides Asuka. Maybe third if Io Shirai is indeed on board. Don't know if we ever got real confirmation of that or not.

I'm also not sure what just getting to the main roster has to do with her ability. Ember has been wrestling for five years longer than Charlotte despite being three years younger. She's a better in-ring worker because she's been doing it longer and started at a younger age. Charlotte is good, but she needs a good ring general to lead her. That's why her matches with other great workers tend to be really good, whereas she's been mostly unable to carry lesser workers like Asuka can. Ember, in my opinion, is one of the more talented female workers in the world, and one of the few who, like Asuka, looks like she can actually keep pace with the male wrestlers.

[Ruzious]

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but you've brought her name up an inordinate number of times to praise her ability as being top 2 in the WWE. And she is definitely not in Charlotte's class as a pro wrestler at this point - not in the same neighborhood. Charlotte could very well end up going down in history as the top female wrestler of all time. Ember just got to the main roster. She's got very good potential - as do many others.

I bring her up because, as far as work rate goes, I do think she's second in the WWE (including NXT) besides Asuka. Maybe third if Io Shirai is indeed on board. Don't know if we ever got real confirmation of that or not.

I'm also not sure what just getting to the main roster has to do with her ability. Ember has been wrestling for five years longer than Charlotte despite being three years younger. She's a better in-ring worker because she's been doing it longer and started at a younger age. Charlotte is good, but she needs a good ring general to lead her. That's why her matches with other great workers tend to be really good, whereas she's been mostly unable to carry lesser workers like Asuka can. Ember, in my opinion, is one of the more talented female workers in the world, and one of the few who, like Asuka, looks like she can actually keep pace with the male wrestlers.

It means Charlotte's accomplished a hellavalot more while I think it's clear she's a helluvalot better. I think both of us are convinced the other is wrong - which is fine.

[improper]

It means Charlotte's accomplished a hellavalot more while I think it's clear she's a helluvalot better. I think both of us are convinced the other is wrong - which is fine.

Yeah, I'm sure Charlotte's constant stream of accomplishments have absolute nothing to do with her last name.

Not saying she doesn't deserve some of it, but she's been given a lot more than others because she's got the right dad. Sasha was the better worker in NXT and is miles better on the mic, and yet Charlotte gets all the accolades because her last name is Flair.

[Ruzious]

It means Charlotte's accomplished a hellavalot more while I think it's clear she's a helluvalot better. I think both of us are convinced the other is wrong - which is fine.

Yeah, I'm sure Charlotte's constant stream of accomplishments have absolute nothing to do with her last name.

Not saying she doesn't deserve some of it, but she's been given a lot more than others because she's got the right dad. Sasha was the better worker in NXT and is miles better on the mic, and yet Charlotte gets all the accolades because her last name is Flair.

i really don't think it does. The first time I saw her in a match in NXT, I had no idea who she was and was convinced right there that she was as gifted as any female wrestler I'd ever seen - regardless of race, parents, or household pets.

[LLJ]

I'm not convinced Charlotte is a better worker than Sasha is. Sasha has more four star matches than any woman on the roster. Even by the WWE's very own rankings Sasha appears on the "best women's matches of all time" lists more often than Charlotte.

Charlotte is very good. She's probably the best combination of size and athleticism on the roster. But as far as pure ring psychology, storytelling, selling, execution? I'm not sure. Have you actually taken a good look at her Moonsault? It's her most famous move and yet she almost rarely executes it properly. 9/10 times she basically lands on her feet first, and then drops onto her opponent. That's not how you do a moonsault.

[improper]

I'm not convinced Charlotte is a better worker than Sasha is. Sasha has more four star matches than any woman on the roster. Even by the WWE's very own rankings Sasha appears on the "best women's matches of all time" lists more often than Charlotte.

Charlotte is very good. She's probably the best combination of size and athleticism on the roster. But as far as pure ring psychology, storytelling, selling, execution? I'm not sure. Have you actually taken a good look at her Moonsault? It's her most famous move and yet she almost rarely executes it properly. 9/10 times she basically lands on her feet first, and then drops onto her opponent. That's not how you do a moonsault.

She's not a better worker than Sasha. I don't even think Charlotte is top five if you factor in NXT women as well. I'd rank Kairi over her, and definitely Io if/when she signs (Io is arguably the best female wrestler in the world). I'd also rank Becky, Sasha, Ember, and obviously Asuka over her, which would leave her at roughly sixth. I gotta give her the nod over Bayley because Bayley hasn't done anything relevant since her NXT feud with Sasha.

Charlotte is very good, but as I mentioned, she really struggles when she doesn't have a ring general in there to lead her. That's why all her Sasha matches were so good. Sasha is more experienced and can lead. So can Asuka.

I'd even go so far as to say that, if we go solely by their WWE/NXT careers, Sasha has had the most impressive career thus far of any woman currently on the main roster. She had an epic feud with Bayley in NXT that produced two of WWE's best women's matches ever, had several good to great matches with Charlotte, and has seemed to have a quality match with basically every woman on the roster that's halfway competent in the ring. As you said, she's got the most great matches of any of them, including Asuka.

Although to be fair to Asuka, NXT's women's division was garbage for most of her tenure. She miss the Four Hoursewomen era, caught the back end of Bayley's NXT career, and then basically had no one to work with until Ember showed up (and those matches absolutely delivered).

[WRau1]

[improper]

Guess that settles that then. Can't wait to see her in action.

[LLJ]

Guess that settles that then. Can't wait to see her in action.

Maybe Trips can keep her on NXT until Vince keels over or steps aside due to senility. He was probably doing Asuka a booking favour by holding her there so long. Well, at least they are paid better on the main roster...

[Scott Hall]

Sasha Banks is great and deserves way more then she's been given...

But Charlotte Flair is the best womens wrestler of all-time not many women in history have the total package
like she does. I've seen other wrestlers name their current top 10 in the world and many put Charlotte on that
list that's how good she is. If she was better looking she could be a big cross over star.

[Spens1]

Sasha Banks is great and deserves way more then she's been given...

But Charlotte Flair is the best womens wrestler of all-time not many women in history have the total package
like she does. I've seen other wrestlers name their current top 10 in the world and many put Charlotte on that
list that's how good she is. If she was better looking she could be a big cross over star.

In the ring she is, i'm sorry as a face she still doesn't really do much in terms of promos, at all.

[Scott Hall]

Sasha Banks is great and deserves way more then she's been given...

But Charlotte Flair is the best womens wrestler of all-time not many women in history have the total package
like she does. I've seen other wrestlers name their current top 10 in the world and many put Charlotte on that
list that's how good she is. If she was better looking she could be a big cross over star.

In the ring she is, i'm sorry as a face she still doesn't really do much in terms of promos, at all.

She really hasn't done many face promos but I haven't seen anything wrong with them. She's probably the best
mic worker in the womens division outside of maybe Carmella.

[spykelee]

I agree on Charlotte. I think she's well on her way to best of all time. I don't think I've ever seen anyone with so little experience be so natural, so fast. I find everything she does is so smooth and polished and given her relative inexperience it's really impressive. And as mentioned, probably the best mix of athleticism and power on the roster. If anything I think she's held to a higher standard because of her last name and she has broken through that glass floor in no time. I think everyone else is very good (mostly) but there's only one queen.

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

[Scott Hall]

I agree on Charlotte. I think she's well on her way to best of all time. I don't think I've ever seen anyone with so little experience be so natural, so fast. I find everything she does is so smooth and polished and given her relative inexperience it's really impressive. And as mentioned, probably the best mix of athleticism and power on the roster. If anything I think she's held to a higher standard because of her last name and she has broken through that glass floor in no time. I think everyone else is very good (mostly) but there's only one queen.

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

So you don't think Charlotte has reached GOAT status yet? Who do you have higher then her Trish? Lita?
somebody from Japan or Mexico?

And what does she need to do from here on out to pass who's 1st on your list?

[LLJ]

Sasha Banks is great and deserves way more then she's been given...

But Charlotte Flair is the best womens wrestler of all-time not many women in history have the total package
like she does. I've seen other wrestlers name their current top 10 in the world and many put Charlotte on that
list that's how good she is. If she was better looking she could be a big cross over star.

In the ring she is, i'm sorry as a face she still doesn't really do much in terms of promos, at all.

She really hasn't done many face promos but I haven't seen anything wrong with them. She's probably the best
mic worker in the womens division outside of maybe Carmella.

The best mic worker in the women's division is Alexa.

On Smackdown? Yes, although Becky is actually a very smooth and natural talker, moreso than Charlotte. There are persistent rumours that someone very up top (his name is Kevin Dunn. google him) simply doesn't like her accent, which is why she doesn't get much mic time.

I think Charlotte is a fine representative for the WWE. She's hard working and has a good attitude and never makes a wrong PR step. She can handle the role thrust on her the best of all the women in the WWE, which is why she is given so much.

But she is not the best worker. She is not the a "top 3" mic worker. And, I would argue, at least within the WWE universe, isn't even the most popular woman. As a babyface her crowd reactions are maybe 3rd best on her own brand (Becky for the record is the most consistently cheered woman on Smackdown, with Naomi and Asuka going back and forth for 2nd)

You put her in WM35 against Ronda because her name resonates with people outside the WWE universe. But within the regular WWE fanbase, she doesn't connect with fans as well as other women do. That's not her fault, but she lacks that extra crowd connection. It's that "IT" factor.

To a more obvious degree, Carmella suffers from lack of "IT" factor the most. She tries hard. She's animated. She does her best to get heat. She can carry a 15 minute promo. But week in and week out, she comes out to crickets. She just doesn't have the "IT" factor. Meanwhile people like Naomi and Asuka who can't carry long promos can come out, lift a finger, and get more crowd reactions than Carmella can in 15 minutes of screen time. This is why the WWE are scratching their heads. They fed Charlotte and Asuka to her and she's still getting crickets more often than not.

[Scott Hall]

I have Alexa 3rd as the best mic worker in the womens division... I think Carmella does Alexas gimmick
better then her.

As for Charlotte when she was heel I thought she played it so well I thought she was a legit ****/bitch and I thought
she did the transition well. Keep in mind since it's happened she had to take time off because of Ric Flairs health scare,
injuries and being booked in a feud with a monster face like Asuka.

I mean Charlotte is "given so much" because she's clearly the best all around talent in the womens division she might not
be the best in every single category but shes pretty much near the top. The last 2 Wrestlemania's her matches were
arguably match of the night or in the consideration for it.

She has the respect from all the boys as not only one of the best womens wrestlers but as one of the best wrestlers
overall period in the world. Forbes and some other publications have already proclaimed her the best womens wrestler
of all-time and I didn't hear one person object to that.

I've never understood the appeal for Becky Lench and acknowledge she's extremely over. All I see is a solid ring worker
who's looks bland and sounds bland and in a shallow division and will get her "turn" as champion eventually.

We must be hearing different things because I don't hear crickets for Charlotte and I don't hear loud ovations for Naomi...

Carmella right now is just getting her "turn" the division is so shallow especially with the brand split everyone will be
champion at least once in the next 3-5 years. I think the reason why they brought back Ellsworth is to get some heat on
her. Most fans aren't marks anymore they're smart marks they see Carmella is wildly entertaining so it's hard to boo her
but she's not good in the ring so they're not gonna put her over. A lot of fans hate Ellsworth for whatever reason and
the smart marks hated when he kayfabe ruined the first womens ladder match and him and Carmella actually had some
good heat from that.

The sad thing is WWE's booking can be so bad at times it makes some fans question if certain wrestlers are overrated
or if they actually suck. I never thought we'd be having this discussion about Charlotte. The fans absolutely loved
Ziggler 5 years ago respected by everybody and the WWE booking him into the ground all these years actually
convinced a lot of people that he sucks or is overrated.

Also why are you saying to google Kevin Dunn as if most fans don't know who he is

[LLJ]

I didn't say Charlotte gets crickets. She is definitely over. Just not as over as some other babyface women are.

I think Alexa is the best mic worker and the WWE obviously agrees by how much they push her. She makes bad promos sound natural and her voice and cadence is solid in delivery. Alexa isn't great in the ring either yet she gets consistently solid reactions. She's not much different than Carmella in terms of strengths and weaknesses, just a better and much more successful version. She's a better talker, better looking, better voice, and slightly better in the ring.