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A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg

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A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#1 » by SabasRevenge! » Sun Jun 6, 2010 12:47 am

Oden v. Durant will be a topic of conversation for a long time. Durant is a superstar. He's easily going to be a top five player in the NBA, possibly top three. Oden has played just a season worth of games since turning pro three years ago.

Lets look at this last year:

PER 36:

Code: Select all

Player        FG FGA   FG% FT  FTA  FT% ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF  PTS
Kevin Durant 8.8 18.5 .476 8.4 9.3 .900 1.2 5.8  6.9 2.6 1.2 0.9 3.0 1.9 27.5
Greg Oden    6.6 10.9 .605 3.5 4.6 .766 4.6 8.2 12.8 1.4 0.6 3.4 2.8 6.0 16.7


Durant is certainly a superior volume scorer. His shooting percentages are very good for his position and volume. His ability to get to the line is fantastic and he rebounds well for his position. As a primary scorer, he takes care of the ball and passes just fine.

While not a volume scorer, shooting 60% plus from the field is great, even if 90% of his field goals come from inside. He will undoubtedly get to the line more often as he is better integrated into the offense and 77% from the line is excellent for him. His rebounding is top notch. He's a different sort of rebounder that Howard or Camby, but on the same level. His shot blocking is tremendous as well, though I expect to see him attempt less blocks next year. Points per36 should exceed 20 with just two to three more FGA per game.

Advanced:

Code: Select all

Player PER  TS%  eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg WS/48
Durant 26.2 .607 .514  3.8 17.9 11.0 13.5 1.8  1.9  11.7 32.0 118  104  0.238
Oden   23.1 .647 .605 15.6 28.3 21.9  6.7 0.9  7.7  17.8 20.7 118  100  0.214


This is where it gets really interesting. Durant's PER is elite and Oden's isn't far behind. Oden's top three TS%, REB%, and BLK% bode well for him. Durant's scoring efficiency is excellent, especially for his USG% and his ORTG is great for his role as well. Oden's ORTG is really good and his DRTG was hovering around 90 for most of the year before a bad defensive stretch by the team before he got hurt. 100 will put him among the league leaders, anything approaching 90 puts him in prime Ben Wallace/David Robinson/Bill Walton territory defensively.

The most stunning statistic to me is the WS/48 ratings. Oden's PER is impressive, but IMO win shares are a better metric. This supports the assertion that Durant was the second most valuable player TO HIS TEAM behind Lebron James. Oden comes in sixth or seventh in the league without even being integrated into the offense.

Durant's improvement as a defensive player is also apparent. Rather than a liability, he has become a net positive defensively. The Thunder are horrific offensively and bad defensively with Durant on the bench. Overall, they are pretty good both offensively and defensively, but stellar at neither. This puts them roughly in the top third of the league with Durant and a questionable supporting cast.

The Trailblazers were in the top quarter offensively and right in the middle of the league defensively. Overall, they were in the top third of the league, just like the Thunder. In fact, the teams finished with exactly the same record.

Where were the Trailblazers with Oden?

The biggest single predictor of a win is FG%. Quite simply, the team who shoots the highest percentage usually wins. With Oden in, the Trailblazers had an eFG% of .525 while holding opponents to .479. With Oden out, the Trailblazers had an eFG% of .495 and allowed an eFG% of .506. By scoring very efficiently himself while defending both his man and the bucket well defensively, Greg's impact on shooting percentages were sizable on both ends of the floor.

Rebounding is another top three predictor of winning. Greg is a top three rebounder in the NBA when he's on the floor. In fact, our total rebounding percentage jumped from 50.4% to 54.0%, or from good to dominant.

In combination, Oden's offensive and defensive impact on shooting and rebounding made him a tremendously effective player. To summarize, he forces opponents to shoot a lower percentage and rebounds well to prevent second chances on defense, then converts a high percentage of shots while rebounding teammates' misses for prolonged offensive possessions.

Overall, Greg Oden can turn the Trailblazers into a top five team both offensively and defensively. Any team that can do that is a title contender or favorite and has a very good chance at 60+ wins.

With 20 healthy games from Greg and 300+ games of injuries to key players, the Trailblazers won 50 games. With 82 healthy games from Durant, 82 games from three other starters, and 76 games from the fifth starter, the Thunder won 50 games. Oklahoma City is not done improving, but the Blazers with a healthy Oden and fair to good team health are an elite NBA team.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#2 » by jhern87 » Sun Jun 6, 2010 1:45 am

I agree.. which is why I would never trade Greg for any of those pennies on the dollar trades on the trade board..The fact is, when he's on the floor he's a dominant force. If he can just stay healthy I believe we're contenders.

What I would like to see is him slim down as much as possible. It's blatantly obvious that all of the muscle he put on while sitting out rehabbing from microfracture surgery was a HUGE mistake and set him back for a good 3 or 4 years.

I would be extremely curious to see how his career would be playing out had he not underwent the microfracture surgery immediately. I know, I know.. He would have eventually needed it but he would have never had all of the time to just live in the weight room and would of been able to maintain the playing weight that made him a once in a decade center.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#3 » by ptown08 » Sun Jun 6, 2010 2:47 am

Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#4 » by kumquat » Sun Jun 6, 2010 2:48 am

ptown08 wrote:Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.


Not when you shoot the ball every time you touch it.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#5 » by Walton'sBeard! » Sun Jun 6, 2010 2:52 am

ptown08 wrote:Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.


So far he is the Dominique Wilkins or Adrian Dantley of his generation. If he ever want to have real success he is going to need to double his assists and cut down his turnovers. Right now he is kind of a stat hog.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#6 » by BlazersRizing » Sun Jun 6, 2010 2:55 am

it'd be a good debate if Oden was healthy like Durant always is.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#7 » by nikolokolus » Sun Jun 6, 2010 4:15 am

Walton'sBeard! wrote:So far he is the Dominique Wilkins or Adrian Dantley of his generation. If he ever want to have real success he is going to need to double his assists and cut down his turnovers. Right now he is kind of a stat hog.


Honest question. Who is Oden then?
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#8 » by SabasRevenge! » Sun Jun 6, 2010 4:20 am

Walton'sBeard! wrote:
ptown08 wrote:Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.


So far he is the Dominique Wilkins or Adrian Dantley of his generation. If he ever want to have real success he is going to need to double his assists and cut down his turnovers. Right now he is kind of a stat hog.

At this point I would say that he has surpassed Nique or Dantley on defense and is a more diverse offensive threat due to his shooting ability. He's not as explosive as Nique or as dominant inside as Dantley, but he's possibly on their level as an attacker.

Durant reminds me of George Gervin more than anyone right now. Gervin led the league in scoring and was a perennial 1st team all-NBA player, but he never made an NBA finals, even with Artis Gilmore at center. IMO Durant will be more highly regarded than Gervin, but not as high as Dr. J, Kobe, or Jerry West. If he wins a title, he can be on the level of a guy like Rick Barry all-time, but he'll have to win a few to catch those other greats.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#9 » by Manuel Calavera » Sun Jun 6, 2010 5:49 am

SabasRevenge! wrote:
Walton'sBeard! wrote:
ptown08 wrote:Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.


So far he is the Dominique Wilkins or Adrian Dantley of his generation. If he ever want to have real success he is going to need to double his assists and cut down his turnovers. Right now he is kind of a stat hog.

At this point I would say that he has surpassed Nique or Dantley on defense and is a more diverse offensive threat due to his shooting ability. He's not as explosive as Nique or as dominant inside as Dantley, but he's possibly on their level as an attacker.

Durant reminds me of George Gervin more than anyone right now. Gervin led the league in scoring and was a perennial 1st team all-NBA player, but he never made an NBA finals, even with Artis Gilmore at center. IMO Durant will be more highly regarded than Gervin, but not as high as Dr. J, Kobe, or Jerry West. If he wins a title, he can be on the level of a guy like Rick Barry all-time, but he'll have to win a few to catch those other greats.

I really really don't think Durant has surpassed Nique or Dantley as scorers - maybe Nique, but certainly not Dantley. In 84 he was scoring 31 points on 65TS%. That's unheard of for a guy his size. Dantley's problems as a player were mainly his personality IIRC and definitely because of his bad defense and passing (he really was a black hole on offense).
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#10 » by Shem » Sun Jun 6, 2010 6:16 am

ptown08 wrote:Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.

I'm glad others have seen what I've been pointing out for a long time. There is no way Durant would be that successful under Nate's offense. It's too slow and conservative and Durant would have never been given the freedom to do what he has done.

And make sure you see his assist-to-turnover ratio. It's horrible for someone who handles the ball as much as he does.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#11 » by SabasRevenge! » Sun Jun 6, 2010 4:15 pm

Shem wrote:
ptown08 wrote:Durant with 2.6 assists is bafflingly bad for a superstar player.

I'm glad others have seen what I've been pointing out for a long time. There is no way Durant would be that successful under Nate's offense. It's too slow and conservative and Durant would have never been given the freedom to do what he has done.

And make sure you see his assist-to-turnover ratio. It's horrible for someone who handles the ball as much as he does.

It will be really interesting to see what he does next year. If he's still posting <3 assists and has lower than or equal to a 1:1 A:TO, I would predict that he would stay around the George Gervin level. Drexler, Barry, and Pippen were all tremendous passers at his position and Jordan came into the league and averaged over five APG his rookie year. Likewise, Kobe became much better at involving his teammates, Dr. J's A:TO was always at least a bit better than 1:1, up as far as 2:1, and West was certainly a deft passer. Durant's A:TO actually worsened this year to .85:1.

Manuel Calavera wrote:I really really don't think Durant has surpassed Nique or Dantley as scorers - maybe Nique, but certainly not Dantley. In 84 he was scoring 31 points on 65TS%. That's unheard of for a guy his size. Dantley's problems as a player were mainly his personality IIRC and definitely because of his bad defense and passing (he really was a black hole on offense).

I would take Durant over either Nique or Dantley. He's already probably better defensively than either and IMO his output will translate into more team success. Dantley was known as a black hole, but his passing numbers were consistently better than Durant's during his seven year prime, averaging up to 4.8 APG. On Dantley's TS%, as you mentioned he was a different type of scorer than Durant. He's one of those basketball freaks that is a statistical anomaly.

To me, a primary reason that Durant's efficient scoring is so impressive is his really high USG%. He's at 32% in his third year on high efficiency. Efficiency usually plummets as usage increases. Great players continue to produce efficiently even as their usage increases. Merely good players will produce efficiently only to a certain threshold of usage.

Prime Nique produced at up to 35% (!), but on mediocre efficiency and prime Dantley produced at around 28% on excellent efficiency. Dantley had three prime years where he got close to Durant's '10 WS48 and Nique never got close. Even in the year where Nique had crazy usage, his OWS were still quite inferior to Durant's.

At this point I feel pretty save saying that Durant's going to be or already a better player than either of them, but I agree that prime Dantley is probably better as a pure scorer than Durant so far. His year of 30 points on 18 shots per game was just unreal.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#12 » by Vega » Sun Jun 6, 2010 5:06 pm

Didn't something like 30% of Oden's offensive possessions end in either a TO an offensive foul or his shot blocked? If anyone has that particular stat, I'd be interested to see it.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#13 » by Devilzsidewalk » Sun Jun 6, 2010 5:13 pm

Vega wrote:Didn't something like 30% of Oden's offensive possessions end in either a TO an offensive foul or his shot blocked? If anyone has that particular stat, I'd be interested to see it.


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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#14 » by Manuel Calavera » Sun Jun 6, 2010 5:13 pm

Vega wrote:Didn't something like 30% of Oden's offensive possessions end in either a TO an offensive foul or his shot blocked? If anyone has that particular stat, I'd be interested to see it.

I think it was close to that, I think that was his major weakness as a player this season. To be fair though a lot of that was because of his first game where he had 7 TO's. He also made up for it by getting so many offensive rebounds.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#15 » by Joel Embust » Mon Jun 7, 2010 11:33 am

Shem wrote:And make sure you see his assist-to-turnover ratio. It's horrible for someone who handles the ball as much as he does.



I guess I could forgive the 21 year old kid that has carried his team to the playoffs with averages of 30/8/3 with 1 block, 1.5 steals and 1.5 threes on elite percentages.

If you can forgive Oden for his foul rate, turnovers, injuries and off the court drama, you sure as hell can forgive Durant for a leak in his stellar game.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#16 » by long range bomber » Mon Jun 7, 2010 12:21 pm

Durant is a great scorer and has tremendous upside but that is no reason to be down on Oden.
The bigman is 22yo and has plenty of time to get healthy and develop into the player Blazer fans and management all hoped he would be.

per36 minutes
pts-16.7
reb-12.8
ast-1.4
stl-0.6
blk-3.4
t/o-2.8
fouls-6.0
fg%- 61
ft%- 76

That is a great base line for future production from Oden as long as he stays healthy. Those numbers should only improve as he develops and refines his basketball skills, gains experience, gains more confidence and is given more respect from the refs.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#17 » by lukekarts » Mon Jun 7, 2010 3:57 pm

If Oden can ever stay healthy he'll be a good player but I really do worry about his health long-term - 2 major injuries in 3 seasons, how many minutes has he played??

I hate to break it to you guys but if you had Durant on your team you would probably be in the finals right now.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#18 » by ptown08 » Mon Jun 7, 2010 5:54 pm

The one positive I can get from Oden's injuries is the time not spent exerting energy and big minutes out there. If he can get out there and stay injury free, his career just got a couple years longer.
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#19 » by SabasRevenge! » Mon Jun 7, 2010 5:59 pm

Eleqtrique wrote:I guess I could forgive the 21 year old kid that has carried his team to the playoffs with averages of 30/8/3 with 1 block, 1.5 steals and 1.5 threes on elite percentages.

If you can forgive Oden for his foul rate, turnovers, injuries and off the court drama, you sure as hell can forgive Durant for a leak in his stellar game.

As far as forgiving goes, I'm harping on Durant for that hole in his game. I'm merely pointing out that, historically speaking, players with similar scoring prowess and court vision/A:TO ratios have gone on to be the George Gervin/Dominique Wilkins of the NBA. Durant is a fantastic player, but he needs some work to get to the championship level of a Dwyane Wade/Rick Barry/Clyde Drexler type all-around player. Scoring isn't everything.

lukekarts wrote:If Oden can ever stay healthy he'll be a good player but I really do worry about his health long-term - 2 major injuries in 3 seasons, how many minutes has he played??

Do you really think this is news to us? You're re-hashing the #1 topic of conversation among Blazers fans for the last three years. Talk about a Captain Obvious moment.

I hate to break it to you guys but if you had Durant on your team you would probably be in the finals right now.

Over the Lakers, eh? I question how well you thought that statement through. Aldridge banging inside with Gasol/Odom/Bynum? If we had Durant, Artest would be doing the same number on him he did to y'all in the first round. Truly great players don't get defensive beatdowns in the playoffs (.350/.286 v. the Lakers).
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Re: A Look at Oden v. Durant and Our Future with Greg 

Post#20 » by slick_watts » Mon Jun 7, 2010 6:55 pm

SabasRevenge! wrote:As far as forgiving goes, I'm harping on Durant for that hole in his game. I'm merely pointing out that, historically speaking, players with similar scoring prowess and court vision/A:TO ratios have gone on to be the George Gervin/Dominique Wilkins of the NBA. Durant is a fantastic player, but he needs some work to get to the championship level of a Dwyane Wade/Rick Barry/Clyde Drexler type all-around player. Scoring isn't everything.


Durant is, by your own admission, a great rebounder for his position. He is also a better defender easily than George Gervin ever was (and Alex English, Bob McAdoo, and other one dimensionals he gets compared to). 'Nique was a bit better defensively than those guys, but I think Durant will be better than him on that end too.

OKC is sorely lacking in shooters. People Durant can pass the ball to and see assists get converted. Our interior players all have poor hands (Ibaka, Collison) or mobility (Krstic). Green is decent at both but we never do much with him.

Durant has made huge strides in his scoring efficiency and he's probably close to topping that off. I can't see him being much more efficient than he showed this season. So he'll be working on other things to make him and his team better... he's got a good handle for a guy his size (though not neccesarily for a SF), his assist #'s will go up as he matures and the Thunder in general become a better offensive team. Maybe not on the level of Wade, Kobe, Drexler, Barry, etc.

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