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2023-24 General Thread

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OxAndFox
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#421 » by OxAndFox » Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:02 am

BoogieTime wrote:
Lost in LA wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:Lock up Brown now.. one of the reasons why this team is good. Maybe best coach of the sac era. Fans always complain about the coach and would complain about the next one


I have to agree with this. The Kings' primary problem is a lack of talent, along with low on court IQ.


Right. The talent level at this point in comparison to the strength of the conference doesn't deem a better record

Some people will always complain about coaching, just like they will officiating. Sometimes its the same folks doing it, just complaining about abstract notions that barely register to the record (same people who don't like the coaching often think refs are pegged against the Kings).

Without looking, the same people complaining about Brown here or on the other sites were also giving Joerger a hard time (the only other decent coach we've had who wasnt fired for basketball reasons). Obviously everyone had the objective right to complain about Walton/Gentry lol.

But as someone who doesn't care to cliche direct apathy towards coaches, Brown didn't win COY for nothing and he is impressive. Vivek better not fool around with it because its one of the positive things that has happened during his term

Why are people giving any time to a clear hit piece? Don't fall for it.

He has just got out of the shower from the season finishing and everyone thinks Vivek/Monte should have been waiting there at his locker with the pen?
This guy was 100% all in during the season and things only got more hectic as injuries hit etc so do people think that's a good time for their coach to be distracted by a new contract extension? If he doesn't have an extension later in the off season then its time to get the Vivek pitchforks out.

PS Think Malone might be a good coach too.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#422 » by BoogieTime » Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:10 pm

OxAndFox wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Lost in LA wrote:
I have to agree with this. The Kings' primary problem is a lack of talent, along with low on court IQ.


Right. The talent level at this point in comparison to the strength of the conference doesn't deem a better record

Some people will always complain about coaching, just like they will officiating. Sometimes its the same folks doing it, just complaining about abstract notions that barely register to the record (same people who don't like the coaching often think refs are pegged against the Kings).

Without looking, the same people complaining about Brown here or on the other sites were also giving Joerger a hard time (the only other decent coach we've had who wasnt fired for basketball reasons). Obviously everyone had the objective right to complain about Walton/Gentry lol.

But as someone who doesn't care to cliche direct apathy towards coaches, Brown didn't win COY for nothing and he is impressive. Vivek better not fool around with it because its one of the positive things that has happened during his term

Why are people giving any time to a clear hit piece? Don't fall for it.

He has just got out of the shower from the season finishing and everyone thinks Vivek/Monte should have been waiting there at his locker with the pen?
This guy was 100% all in during the season and things only got more hectic as injuries hit etc so do people think that's a good time for their coach to be distracted by a new contract extension? If he doesn't have an extension later in the off season then its time to get the Vivek pitchforks out.

PS Think Malone might be a good coach too.


Not sure its a "hit piece". Seems a sourced report from Amick/Slater and The Athletic probably from pretty close to Brown that he wants that extension.

I also don't think its that big of a deal yet. Could be some extensive negotiation, as per the article Brown might rightly be looking to be remunerated as a top coach (double digit mil a year)
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#423 » by OxAndFox » Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:11 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
OxAndFox wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Right. The talent level at this point in comparison to the strength of the conference doesn't deem a better record

Some people will always complain about coaching, just like they will officiating. Sometimes its the same folks doing it, just complaining about abstract notions that barely register to the record (same people who don't like the coaching often think refs are pegged against the Kings).

Without looking, the same people complaining about Brown here or on the other sites were also giving Joerger a hard time (the only other decent coach we've had who wasnt fired for basketball reasons). Obviously everyone had the objective right to complain about Walton/Gentry lol.

But as someone who doesn't care to cliche direct apathy towards coaches, Brown didn't win COY for nothing and he is impressive. Vivek better not fool around with it because its one of the positive things that has happened during his term

Why are people giving any time to a clear hit piece? Don't fall for it.

He has just got out of the shower from the season finishing and everyone thinks Vivek/Monte should have been waiting there at his locker with the pen?
This guy was 100% all in during the season and things only got more hectic as injuries hit etc so do people think that's a good time for their coach to be distracted by a new contract extension? If he doesn't have an extension later in the off season then its time to get the Vivek pitchforks out.

PS Think Malone might be a good coach too.


Not sure its a "hit piece". Seems a sourced report from Amick/Slater and The Athletic probably from pretty close to Brown that he wants that extension.

I also don't think its that big of a deal yet. Could be some extensive negotiation, as per the article Brown might rightly be looking to be remunerated as a top coach (double digit mil a year)


I think the wording of it is deliberate to put Vivek/Kings in a bad light.
If it was coming from Browns camp (absolutely could/would be - and nothing wrong with that) it should be reported that Brown is eager to sign extension with Kings this off season, looking to get deal done that could see the 2022-23 coach of the year join the elite coaches in earnings. THAT'S the story at this point.

If it weren't a hit piece there would be quotes from Vivek/FO? Not even The Athletic reached out to Ranadive and Monte for comment but none were forthcoming. Its typical of a hit piece. It's lazy reporting of a non story, so far as to say if you actually read the story its just filled with old narratives.
They say at least 4 times in the story how Ranadive is "feeling", yet they clearly haven't spoken to him. Again, it's lazy AF and it's trying to keep an old story alive.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#424 » by OxAndFox » Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:00 pm

Have been thinking about this for a while now. Will De'Aaron Fox make the All NBA Defensive Team First Or Second?
Only twice in the last 10 years, 21-22 Dejounte Murray & 2015-16 Steph Curry, have the steals leader been ommitted from the All Defensive Teams.
We all know there is more to defense than just steals, but it would seem that it's not a bad indicator in past history.
Will Fox get snubbed again? Or will the NBA recognize the step he took this season?
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#425 » by KF10 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:37 pm

Naz Reid won 6MOTY
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#426 » by Lost in LA » Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:12 am

For what it is worth, I feel the team is at a crossroads. Our core talent is not great, but Brown got the best out of them, and the team has punched above its weight over the last 2 seasons, but unfortunately had more costly lapses this season than last.

I believe Monk will stay, as this is a perfect set up for him. If he starts, then I think we keep Huerter for now at least, but we will need one other defender at least.

We need some forward defensive help, and possibly a ball handler as the less we have Fox do, the more energy he conserves for the fourth quarter of games. Most of the current bench needs to go, but Sasha needs more consistent time as he is a high level winner and is also a very intelligent player. Keon is not an NBA level starter yet, despite some flashes, but his defence has proven to be essential in a team of average at best defenders. So we need a real 4, with wing capability, and we can learn from what Malone did at Denver in surrounding a very good player like Jokic, in our case Sabonis, with physically adept support players, and not have him do all the dirty work as well as the ball handling.

Not sure what trade value Barnes has, but I cannot see keeping both Huerter and him, but I see Huerter as being more useful next season, and younger. Unless we improve the core of 7/8 players with 2 new additions, I do not see us getting better, which will make the decision to extend Barnes and re-do Sabonis' deal look really bad. We sit between some young teams like Houston and OKC, on the one hand, but are in better shape that say the Warriors or even the Lakers. Fox is a bit of an enigma, as while he is very talented, he hasn't shown the consistency or maturity needed as the team's leader and face of the franchise.

Monte's legacy and future depend on this off season and/or the 24/25 deadline. Brown needs to be re-signed now, and Vivek, who unlike prior owners, has plenty of money, needs to open the wallet to build the value of the team. We have done the hard work in 2022/3 to get here, and it would be shameful to throw away the porgress thus far.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#427 » by OxAndFox » Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:52 am

Lost in LA wrote:For what it is worth, I feel the team is at a crossroads. Our core talent is not great, but Brown got the best out of them, and the team has punched above its weight over the last 2 seasons, but unfortunately had more costly lapses this season than last.

I believe Monk will stay, as this is a perfect set up for him. If he starts, then I think we keep Huerter for now at least, but we will need one other defender at least.

We need some forward defensive help, and possibly a ball handler as the less we have Fox do, the more energy he conserves for the fourth quarter of games. Most of the current bench needs to go, but Sasha needs more consistent time as he is a high level winner and is also a very intelligent player. Keon is not an NBA level starter yet, despite some flashes, but his defence has proven to be essential in a team of average at best defenders. So we need a real 4, with wing capability, and we can learn from what Malone did at Denver in surrounding a very good player like Jokic, in our case Sabonis, with physically adept support players, and not have him do all the dirty work as well as the ball handling.

Not sure what trade value Barnes has, but I cannot see keeping both Huerter and him, but I see Huerter as being more useful next season, and younger. Unless we improve the core of 7/8 players with 2 new additions, I do not see us getting better, which will make the decision to extend Barnes and re-do Sabonis' deal look really bad. We sit between some young teams like Houston and OKC, on the one hand, but are in better shape that say the Warriors or even the Lakers. Fox is a bit of an enigma, as while he is very talented, he hasn't shown the consistency or maturity needed as the team's leader and face of the franchise.

Monte's legacy and future depend on this off season and/or the 24/25 deadline. Brown needs to be re-signed now, and Vivek, who unlike prior owners, has plenty of money, needs to open the wallet to build the value of the team. We have done the hard work in 2022/3 to get here, and it would be shameful to throw away the porgress thus far.


Well put together. Agree as well.

Keeping Huerter and bringing him off the bench if Monk stays could be a good option. Guard rotations of Fox/Monk/Keon/Huerter with potentially keeping combination of Davion/Duarte/Colby as deep bench options. Huerter could play some 3 off the bench as well. Just depends on staggering the minutes. Think we would see a new side to his game that resembles the small playmaking K'Von we saw last season.
But as you allude, the big thing is getting a 4.
I agree with Sasha, he needs consistent minutes. He improved on the defensive end as a team defender as the season went on. He is never going to be a great 1-1 defender, but there are a huge amount of these guys getting minutes in the POs right now.
His minutes should be around what Trey is getting, or just under. 16-20mpg.

I think the main aim of the coaching staff should be to restrict the minutes of Fox/Sabonis during the RS. Maybe even all the starters. Whether it be conscious or not it seems like these guys coast too much during games. You can take Domas out of that, he doesn't coast on any possessions let alone segments of games. Maybe his would be to keep the body in check. Tell them, get the job done in 32mpg or under or we need to give someone else a chance to. Extend to 34-36 on some nights (maybe when they've had longer breaks between games), but if they can't get it done in that time and build a winning lead, give another player a chance. Don't wait until you are getting blown out or blowing someone out to put the likes of Kessler/Colby/Sasha/Lyles/Len/Duarte etc in or back in. The squad will change, but the premise still stands.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#428 » by madskillz8 » Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:01 am

Not much different than Lost in LA and OxandFox but here's my recipe for the offseason:

- Trade Huerter for 2nd rounders and an expiring who can also contribute

- Start Ellis and give him 15-30 minutes, but keep and give Monk starter minutes off the bench

- Try to make Vezenkov a solid rotational piece, he's more than a shooter who gets playing time here and there

- Try to trade Barnes + lottery protected 1st for J. Grant, but it would likely fail

- Try to make Sabonis a solid midrange shooter with Luke Loucks, he can fail but at least it worth trying

- Get rid of Duarte so Mike Brown can't give him minutes

- Replace Jordi Fernandez with "tactician" associate assistant coach - it looks like Mike Brown is not a good one as he's constantly getting outplayed by a few coaches like Udoka and Green.

- Don't move the pick and try to find a high potential player even if he's not ready to contribute - we need cheap talent as we are gonna be over the cap

- Other than that, the core of Keegan & Fox & Sabonis is only getting better - no need to move them.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#429 » by BoogieTime » Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:44 am

OxAndFox wrote:Have been thinking about this for a while now. Will De'Aaron Fox make the All NBA Defensive Team First Or Second?
Only twice in the last 10 years, 21-22 Dejounte Murray & 2015-16 Steph Curry, have the steals leader been ommitted from the All Defensive Teams.
We all know there is more to defense than just steals, but it would seem that it's not a bad indicator in past history.
Will Fox get snubbed again? Or will the NBA recognize the step he took this season?


No. Not a catch all metric for defense. A lot of advanced stats paint him neutral on that end, which is an improvement in seasons past, so credit

Usually all defensive teams feature guards who you try to have on the teams best opposing offensive players. It’s still better when you have a defensive guard with Fox taking the tough PG assignements (a reason you might see Keon continuing in that starting role)
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#430 » by SacFanArkansas » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:32 am

Ok here me out.. after looking at our roster what we seem to be missing is height and aggressiveness at SF or PF.. we need a dennis Rodman type player.. so here is my proposal - we trade for Wiggins or moody from GS (Brown can get the most out of either and GS is eager to get under the cap) I love Harrison but in the past I love another player (Wayemon Tisdale) who was good but in reality he was built for a half court offense which I believe is where Harrison is at.. so we move any combination of Harrison, huerte, Davion, Sasha, other bench role players and we pry away Wiggins (or a Wiggins type) and we go after a Tobias Harris type with our mid level (I know he wants more but the 76 have been trying to trade him forever with no takers bc of his high salary). So overall we exchange Harrison for a Wiggins type and we add a Tobias Harris (or type which would be our enforcer off the bench ) Thoughts?
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#431 » by BoogieTime » Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:42 pm

SacFanArkansas wrote:Ok here me out.. after looking at our roster what we seem to be missing is height and aggressiveness at SF or PF.. we need a dennis Rodman type player.. so here is my proposal - we trade for Wiggins or moody from GS (Brown can get the most out of either and GS is eager to get under the cap) I love Harrison but in the past I love another player (Wayemon Tisdale) who was good but in reality he was built for a half court offense which I believe is where Harrison is at.. so we move any combination of Harrison, huerte, Davion, Sasha, other bench role players and we pry away Wiggins (or a Wiggins type) and we go after a Tobias Harris type with our mid level (I know he wants more but the 76 have been trying to trade him forever with no takers bc of his high salary). So overall we exchange Harrison for a Wiggins type and we add a Tobias Harris (or type which would be our enforcer off the bench ) Thoughts?


Ive said this before about the trying to turn Wiggins around thing when its brought up on the T/T board, but, he literally is in the place where he should be inspired the most, playing with this hall of fame GSW core etc. Why would he be more enthused to give effort elsewhere?
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#432 » by OxAndFox » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:13 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
OxAndFox wrote:Have been thinking about this for a while now. Will De'Aaron Fox make the All NBA Defensive Team First Or Second?
Only twice in the last 10 years, 21-22 Dejounte Murray & 2015-16 Steph Curry, have the steals leader been ommitted from the All Defensive Teams.
We all know there is more to defense than just steals, but it would seem that it's not a bad indicator in past history.
Will Fox get snubbed again? Or will the NBA recognize the step he took this season?


No. Not a catch all metric for defense. A lot of advanced stats paint him neutral on that end, which is an improvement in seasons past, so credit

Usually all defensive teams feature guards who you try to have on the teams best opposing offensive players. It’s still better when you have a defensive guard with Fox taking the tough PG assignements (a reason you might see Keon continuing in that starting role)


No it's not a catch all metric, but it probably shows he isn't far off and if he were to make it, it wouldn't surprise me.
Also for me, it brings up another topic. I will put into a separate post.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#433 » by OxAndFox » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:18 pm

Re: Fox defense etc.

For me, it goes full circle and back to, the Kings don't need a #2 or #3 or #4 scorer, they need a #1 scorer. That way Fox can concentrate on D while still scoring at a relatively high level. The offense was what fell away as the season progressed.

Offensive Rating Overall: 116.2
Pre All Star: 116.6
Post All Star: 115.3
Last 15 Games (Without Huerter): 113.8
Last 9 Games (Without Huerter/Monk): 115.6

The toughest thing is, how do the Kings get a #1 scorer. The defenders ARE already in place (Fox/Keon/Keegan) and you just need to work around the edges for 1-2 specialists 3&D (could Edwards be 1? I think so), but it's that #1 scorer, go get me a bucket at any time of the game that the Kings are missing.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#434 » by OxAndFox » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:20 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
SacFanArkansas wrote:Ok here me out.. after looking at our roster what we seem to be missing is height and aggressiveness at SF or PF.. we need a dennis Rodman type player.. so here is my proposal - we trade for Wiggins or moody from GS (Brown can get the most out of either and GS is eager to get under the cap) I love Harrison but in the past I love another player (Wayemon Tisdale) who was good but in reality he was built for a half court offense which I believe is where Harrison is at.. so we move any combination of Harrison, huerte, Davion, Sasha, other bench role players and we pry away Wiggins (or a Wiggins type) and we go after a Tobias Harris type with our mid level (I know he wants more but the 76 have been trying to trade him forever with no takers bc of his high salary). So overall we exchange Harrison for a Wiggins type and we add a Tobias Harris (or type which would be our enforcer off the bench ) Thoughts?


Ive said this before about the trying to turn Wiggins around thing when its brought up on the T/T board, but, he literally is in the place where he should be inspired the most, playing with this hall of fame GSW core etc. Why would he be more enthused to give effort elsewhere?


I tend to agree. Not sure what happened to him there, but he went from finals MVP type to nothing. Can anyone get through to him? If anyone can, I think it would be Mike Brown, and he would already know if he could or whether it's simply not going to work.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#435 » by OxAndFox » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:34 pm

madskillz8 wrote:Not much different than Lost in LA and OxandFox but here's my recipe for the offseason:

.

- Trade Huerter for 2nd rounders and an expiring who can also contribute
Probably Tim Hardaway Jr is the only one I can see. Maybe add something for Kennard. Add something for Bruce Brown.

- Start Ellis and give him 15-30 minutes, but keep and give Monk starter minutes off the bench
Solid. Like it. There are many ways to utilize the Kings guard rotations and I don't think anyone would mind this.

- Try to make Vezenkov a solid rotational piece, he's more than a shooter who gets playing time here and there
Correct. They brought him over for a specific reason and he showed more than that. Get his body right and next season will be great.

- Try to trade Barnes + lottery protected 1st for J. Grant, but it would likely fail
I've mentioned I don't like the Grant addition, but the FO could do much, much worse.

- Try to make Sabonis a solid midrange shooter with Luke Loucks, he can fail but at least it worth trying
Yep. Luke needs to work with him. Sabonis himself should be seeking out shooting coaches to work with. Davion did it last off season so if he doesn't, questions should be asked why Sabonis won't do it.

- Get rid of Duarte so Mike Brown can't give him minutes
I'm still a semi believer in Duarte. Just needs to stop reaching and stop shooting mid range shots.

- Replace Jordi Fernandez with "tactician" associate assistant coach - it looks like Mike Brown is not a good one as he's constantly getting outplayed by a few coaches like Udoka and Green.
Was it reported Luke was taking the associate position? I agree overall that Mike needs help on that specific part of coaching.

- Don't move the pick and try to find a high potential player even if he's not ready to contribute - we need cheap talent as we are gonna be over the cap
If Monte doesn't trade the pick for a vet and he doesn't like what he sees on the board I would like him to move down and snag 2 firsts and get some cheap talent in. Many ways to skin a cat, so it will be interesting.

- Other than that, the core of Keegan & Fox & Sabonis is only getting better - no need to move them
Agreed at this stage unless someone comes knocking with an overpay.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#436 » by KF10 » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:46 pm

OxAndFox wrote:Re: Fox defense etc.

For me, it goes full circle and back to, the Kings don't need a #2 or #3 or #4 scorer, they need a #1 scorer. That way Fox can concentrate on D while still scoring at a relatively high level. The offense was what fell away as the season progressed.

Offensive Rating Overall: 116.2
Pre All Star: 116.6
Post All Star: 115.3
Last 15 Games (Without Huerter): 113.8
Last 9 Games (Without Huerter/Monk): 115.6

The toughest thing is, how do the Kings get a #1 scorer. The defenders ARE already in place (Fox/Keon/Keegan) and you just need to work around the edges for 1-2 specialists 3&D (could Edwards be 1? I think so), but it's that #1 scorer, go get me a bucket at any time of the game that the Kings are missing.


Not sure if there are #1 scorers out there for the Kings to pluck from.

I see only guys like Demar DeRozan (SG/SF), Kyle Kuzma (SF/PF), Miles Bridges (SF/PF)....maybe Dejounte Murray
(PG/SG) that are realistically available without selling the whole farm.
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Re: 2023-24 General Thread 

Post#437 » by OxAndFox » Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:58 pm

KF10 wrote:
OxAndFox wrote:Re: Fox defense etc.

For me, it goes full circle and back to, the Kings don't need a #2 or #3 or #4 scorer, they need a #1 scorer. That way Fox can concentrate on D while still scoring at a relatively high level. The offense was what fell away as the season progressed.

Offensive Rating Overall: 116.2
Pre All Star: 116.6
Post All Star: 115.3
Last 15 Games (Without Huerter): 113.8
Last 9 Games (Without Huerter/Monk): 115.6

The toughest thing is, how do the Kings get a #1 scorer. The defenders ARE already in place (Fox/Keon/Keegan) and you just need to work around the edges for 1-2 specialists 3&D (could Edwards be 1? I think so), but it's that #1 scorer, go get me a bucket at any time of the game that the Kings are missing.


Not sure if there are #1 scorers out there for the Kings to pluck from.

I see only guys like Demar DeRozan (SG/SF), Kyle Kuzma (SF/PF), Miles Bridges (SF/PF)....maybe Dejounte Murray
(PG/SG) that are realistically available without selling the whole farm.


Absolutely. I don't think wasting assets on the guys mentioned is the way to go too. Need to be in future asset gathering mode to be competitive in an offer for one that becomes available.

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