Stephon Castle

[sip]

In today's game, guys who don't shoot at least league-average don't get much playing time. Floor spacing is just that important.

what did kawhi shoot from three as a frosh? as a sophomore? Castle is a 76% FT shooter so it's not as if he's hopeless. he's 19. 19 year olds improve. of course it's a risk drafting him over say, somebody like Jakobe Walter, from a shooting standpoint, but he does other things better than Walter. there isn't a prospect in the draft without risk.

the biggest mistake draft geeks or actual experts make is forgetting guys improve their shooting all the time, significantly, from the the time they are freshmen to their 2nd or 3rd years in the league. granted, they don't all get to where they need to be, hence the risk, but it is commonplace.

That isn't calling him Kawhi.

[hickfromfrenchlick]

While most elite defenders rack up more stocks, it's not like Castle's numbers are historically low or that there aren't examples of good perimeter defenders currently in the league who have had comparable stock numbers in college. I agree that we shouldn't expect him to be a defensive game-changer (very few players his size are) but he has a good chance to turn into a clear plus defender at POA.

Let me say this. As a freshman, Castle is easily in the top-5 perimeter defenders to ever play at UConn. Yeah, Clingan was behind him. But guys just weren't getting by. UConn has a rich tradition of shot-blockers, from Okafor to Boone to Armstrong to Thabeet. You can still tell when a perimeter defender is locking his guy down.

Nadav Henefeld
Ricky Moore
Shabazz/Boatright* (*ramped up in 2014 tournament)
Castle


I'm not saying he's prime Gary Payton but he has the tools to be an excellent defender and denying that based on box scores doesn't just cut it. Cam Spencer averaged 2.0 spg for Rutgers and then 1.5 spg at UConn. I can't even begin to explain how much better of a defender Castle is than Spencer. One guy jumped the passing lane but got beat a lot. The other stuck with his guy, didn't cheat off him, and locked him down. And like you noted, he averaged 0.8 spg in 27 mpg, it's not like he never got steals.

All notable HOF-caliber NBA players

Non-responsive but I'll take the bait anyway.

I didn't list the numerous NBA guards/wings that went to UConn (e.g., Allen, Rip, Gordon) because he was better defensively than them. I only listed the guys that were incredible defensive players in college.

You have no idea who Henefeld is and you have no idea how effective a perimeter defender Ricky Moore was. He had little talent offensively which is why the NBA wasn't interested. But he was a beast on D.

[EvanZ]

You have no idea who Henefeld is and you have no idea how effective a perimeter defender Ricky Moore was. He had little talent offensively which is why the NBA wasn't interested. But he was a beast on D.

Oh my friend. That is where you are wrong. Not only was I a UConn back in the day but my parents are Israeli, so yes. I GODDAMN WELL KNOW EXACTLY WHO NADAV HENEFELD IS. Picked on the wrong bro, bro.

[hickfromfrenchlick]

You have no idea who Henefeld is and you have no idea how effective a perimeter defender Ricky Moore was. He had little talent offensively which is why the NBA wasn't interested. But he was a beast on D.

Oh my friend. That is where you are wrong. Not only was I a UConn back in the day but my parents are Israeli, so yes. I GODDAMN WELL KNOW EXACTLY WHO NADAV HENEFELD IS. Picked on the wrong bro, bro.

Then you of all people should know what kind of compliment I was giving Castle. You just negged Nadav, basically.

The current debate among UConn fans is whether Castle was better defensively than Henefeld or Moore and if you are the (former) UConn fan you claim to be, then you'd know what that means.

For all his current limitations, perimeter D isn't one of them.

[EvanZ]

You have no idea who Henefeld is and you have no idea how effective a perimeter defender Ricky Moore was. He had little talent offensively which is why the NBA wasn't interested. But he was a beast on D.

Oh my friend. That is where you are wrong. Not only was I a UConn back in the day but my parents are Israeli, so yes. I GODDAMN WELL KNOW EXACTLY WHO NADAV HENEFELD IS. Picked on the wrong bro, bro.

Then you of all people should know what kind of compliment I was giving Castle. You just negged Nadav, basically.

The current debate among UConn fans is whether Castle was better defensively than Henefeld or Moore and if you are the (former) UConn fan you claim to be, then you'd know what that means.

For all his current limitations, perimeter D isn't one of them.

I'm not even debating his defense. You're actually making the point for me which is that he will need more than good defense to make it in the NBA. I mean, I'm not even sure a Gerald Wallace is in the NBA, at least, not at a high level in the current offensive context. It's very very hard to survive without shooting.

[MasterIchiro]

He's quick to the rim. Because of his rim pressure, defenders will give him space to shoot.

Space is ideal for a player learning to extend his range during games. So I like his potential development shooting.

He's also a legitimate secondary ball handler on the next level. An able shot creator for himself and for teammates.

We can fixate on his range shooting but he's going to be a contributor on offense.

The discussion should center on the question of whether his defense will be elite, or just a notch above average. That's his core value.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Alex Caruso came into the NBA from the G-League shooting 30% from 3. Rui Hachimura shot 28% and 32% from 3 his first two years. Herb Jones shot 33% his first two years. Now all 3 are shooting over 40% from 3.

All I was saying is if Castle puts in the work those guys did, he can improve his shot. He's only 19 and he doesn't have bad mechanics. But some of you want to be smug and act like it's impossible. You don't work for NBA front offices. You're just hobbyists like anyone else here. Get over yourselves.

And I am not speaking directly to you Colbini.

Of course he can improve his shot. What's being debated is mostly whether he will get the opportunity to do that. As I said several pages ago, it's fool's gold to expect non-shooters to become great shooters immediately. Pointing to Kawhi (as was done in this thread) as "an example why you bet on a Stephon Castle" is just fool's gold. Again, as I already said, if you think Castle is good enough to make an impact right away without shooting (which is not easy as a guard/wing), then you should be high on him. If you think he really needs to be a shooter to get on the court, then it's probably rougher sledding. If you think he's Kawhi Leonard, I'm not sure what to tell you other than get a new hobby.

Who the hell called him Kawhi Leonard? You're just seeing what you want to see.

since nobody actually said he was kawhi, here is my best guess as to what might be going through the ethereal mind of evanz:

kawhi is the only player ever who improved his shot significantly from college to pro, so any mention that castle might be able to improve as a shooter must be calling him kawhi. that's all i got.

evanz's MO is to try (and i emphasize try) to make people feel stupid in hopes that it will make him look smarter and if he has to create imaginary narratives out of thin air to accomplish it, he'll certainly do that. it rarely works, mind you, but by golly he's going to do his best.

[EvanZ]

Of course he can improve his shot. What's being debated is mostly whether he will get the opportunity to do that. As I said several pages ago, it's fool's gold to expect non-shooters to become great shooters immediately. Pointing to Kawhi (as was done in this thread) as "an example why you bet on a Stephon Castle" is just fool's gold. Again, as I already said, if you think Castle is good enough to make an impact right away without shooting (which is not easy as a guard/wing), then you should be high on him. If you think he really needs to be a shooter to get on the court, then it's probably rougher sledding. If you think he's Kawhi Leonard, I'm not sure what to tell you other than get a new hobby.

Who the hell called him Kawhi Leonard? You're just seeing what you want to see.

since nobody actually said he was kawhi, here is my best guess as to what might be going through the ethereal mind of evanz:

kawhi is the only player ever who improved his shot significantly from college to pro, so any mention that castle might be able to improve as a shooter must be calling him kawhi. that's all i got.

evanz's MO is to try (and i emphasize try) to make people feel stupid in hopes that it will make him look smarter and if he has to create imaginary narratives out of thin air to accomplish it, he'll certainly do that. it rarely works, mind you, but by golly he's going to do his best.

He's not the only player, which makes the comparison all the more suspicious. And you and me and everyone here knows when you mention someone like Kawhi, it's not a coincidence. It was meant to say "Hey Kawhi did it, so can this guy!" You been doing this as long as I have, it's silly to pretend like nobody knows what's up when that comp is made. He didn't say "Well Trevor Ariza did it".

[kobyz]

my comparison for him is Kendall Gill

[JMAC3]

What is his best case scenario? He proves out to be a real pg at the next level and the shooting concerns are being overblown? I think both of those are probably long shots at this point.

It is easier to see him landing in the Caruso, Nesmith, Marcus Smart type of player. All of which are valuable, but limited ceilings as well. His shooting has a decent wise to go before he can be as impactful as the group above.

[Notanoob]

What is his best case scenario? He proves out to be a real pg at the next level and the shooting concerns are being overblown? I think both of those are probably long shots at this point.

It is easier to see him landing in the Caruso, Nesmith, Marcus Smart type of player. All of which are valuable, but limited ceilings as well. His shooting has a decent wise to go before he can be as impactful as the group above.

Right, if you don't just assume that he's a lead ballhandler and shot creator, and don't just assume he'll suddenly hit 3s at a good rate without any good indicators (I don't know how he shot in high school and that would make a difference), you have a defensive guard who doesn't get a lot of steals. Smart and Caruso had bonkers steal rates, over 4% for each in contrast. Who's the defensive stopper at guard in the NBA who had a steal rate below 2%? I assume it's happened at least once but I can't think of one off the top of my head.

[JustBuzzin]

Caruso is a good comparison. Maybe with a little more playmaking ability.

[Dat2U]

I don't think Castle is as good as a prospect as Anthony Black and Black was a more instictive player who could process what was hapenning on the floor very quickly. Of course Black had the same concerns about his shooting and really couldn't stick in the Magic rotation because of spacing.

At some point these jack of all trades types that can do everything but shoot have to make enough shots to force defenses to account for them otherwise their value is significantly diminshed.

[Catchall]

I don't think Castle is as good as a prospect as Anthony Black and Black was a more instictive player who could process what was hapenning on the floor very quickly. Of course Black had the same concerns about his shooting and really couldn't stick in the Magic rotation because of spacing.

At some point these jack of all trades types that can do everything but shoot have to make enough shots to force defenses to account for them otherwise their value is significantly diminshed.

I'm watching Jalen Suggs not being able to make a shot against Cleveland, and it's got me thinking about Stephon Castle.

[Catchall]

What is his best case scenario? He proves out to be a real pg at the next level and the shooting concerns are being overblown? I think both of those are probably long shots at this point.

It is easier to see him landing in the Caruso, Nesmith, Marcus Smart type of player. All of which are valuable, but limited ceilings as well. His shooting has a decent wise to go before he can be as impactful as the group above.

Even if he's a lead guard, he doesn't actually beat people off the dribble. He bullies smaller guards. He's not going to have an athletic advantage at the NBA level. He also plays slow, quite frankly. In other words, I don't like him as a lead guard. I think he's a defensive 2/3.

[HadAnEffectHere]

What is his best case scenario? He proves out to be a real pg at the next level and the shooting concerns are being overblown? I think both of those are probably long shots at this point.

It is easier to see him landing in the Caruso, Nesmith, Marcus Smart type of player. All of which are valuable, but limited ceilings as well. His shooting has a decent wise to go before he can be as impactful as the group above.

Even if he's a lead guard, he doesn't actually beat people off the dribble. He bullies smaller guards. He's not going to have an athletic advantage at the NBA level, and he plays slow, quite frankly. In other words, I don't like him as a lead guard. I think he's a defensive 2/3.

His appeal is at PG next to a guy like LeBron or Luka.

He's going to be able to defend 1-4 at an average level... And that's very valuable and rare at PG and not nearly as valuable or rare at SG.

[Catchall]

my comparison for him is Kendall Gill

I don't think even Kendall Gill remembers who he was.

[Catchall]

What is his best case scenario? He proves out to be a real pg at the next level and the shooting concerns are being overblown? I think both of those are probably long shots at this point.

It is easier to see him landing in the Caruso, Nesmith, Marcus Smart type of player. All of which are valuable, but limited ceilings as well. His shooting has a decent wise to go before he can be as impactful as the group above.

Even if he's a lead guard, he doesn't actually beat people off the dribble. He bullies smaller guards. He's not going to have an athletic advantage at the NBA level, and he plays slow, quite frankly. In other words, I don't like him as a lead guard. I think he's a defensive 2/3.

His appeal is at PG next to a guy like LeBron or Luka.

He's going to be able to defend 1-4 at an average level... And that's very valuable and rare at PG and not nearly as valuable or rare at SG.

Except that when he's not on the ball, defenders are going to back 8 or 10 feet off. I get the appeal of a 1 who plays off the ball in a 3D role, but Castle really needs to solve his shooting. Saying he should play off of a generational star creator doesn't help his case. Like, every player on the planet would benefit playing next to Lebron or Luka.

[HadAnEffectHere]

I don't view Castle as an NBA playoff rotation player at all unless he shoots 37%+ from three on very high volume.

That's a prereq whether or not he plays PG or SG.

[Upperclass]

Castle may end up like an Iggy in the wrong situation ie Wiz or Detroit.. miscast as a lead guard then ends up on a vet team in a role that he stars in.. or that type of team builds around him. He would be a perfect Melo backcourt mate in Charlotte.