Calipari thinks Wall-Evans backcourt would be good for Kings

[longfellow44]

^^^really I think that any team that played them would just clog the middle and refuse to let any guards penetrate. Just let them shoot 3's all night. They will shoot poorly enough that it would be hard for the kings to win.

[beb0p]

Great one on one players are going to get to the basket no matter how much you clog the middle. I have yet to see that strategy work against great individual players and I doubt it ever will. The Bulls at its peak has MJ, Pippen, Ron Harper, Rodman, and some seven-foot stiff on the floor; tell me if there is even one great 3-pt shooter among those five. I'm not comparing Wall/Evans to MJ/Pippen, but you get the point.

Throughout the second half of the season, the entire defense was designed to stop Evans, and I do mean the entire defense. Clogging the middle, double-teaming, triple-teaming, big man flashing him up top, two guys cheating off their men to help, you name it, the coaches have tried it. Nothing worked. You simply cannot stop great individual players. You just can't. Defenders would give Evans three, four, even five feet of space hoping he'd take the jumpers. Evans would just keep advancing and use that extra space to pick up speed or to change direction. You're not clogging the middle, you're simply giving him more space to work and from closer to the basket.

Unless by "clogging the middle" you mean drop back so far that you're taking all the driving lanes away to the point that you're conceding the open 15-17 foot jumpers. In which case, the Kings will gladly take those.

And that's assuming Evans and Wall will never improve their jumpers. Wall is already a solid shooter with his feet set. Evans is looking more comfortable from mid-range. They're probably never going to be great 3-pt shooters but they will improve, that's a no-brainer.

[vincecarter4pres]

Throughout the second half of the season, the entire defense was designed to stop Evans, and I do mean the entire defense. Clogging the middle, double-teaming, triple-teaming, big man flashing him up top, two guys cheating off their men to help, you name it, the coaches have tried it. Nothing worked. You simply cannot stop great individual players. You just can't. Defenders would give Evans three, four, even five feet of space hoping he'd take the jumpers. Evans would just keep advancing and use that extra space to pick up speed or to change direction. You're not clogging the middle, you're simply giving him more space to work and from closer to the basket.

Yeah, but that didn't result in many wins and that's including the fact you guys had a slew of good three point shooters surrounding him, spreading the floor.
Now obvioulsy I'm not putting the lack of wins solely on him or the style, you are a very young team with no post presence, a crappy overall supporting cast and a lot of players trying to develop at the same time, but it does have to play some part in it.

[beb0p]

Yeah, but that didn't result in many wins and that's including the fact you guys had a slew of good three point shooters surrounding him, spreading the floor.
Now obvioulsy I'm not putting the lack of wins solely on him or the style, you are a very young team with no post presence, a crappy overall supporting cast and a lot of players trying to develop at the same time, but it does have to play some part in it.

And it neither proves or disproves that Wall and Evans can play together. Your point?

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[ponder276]

Great one on one players are going to get to the basket no matter how much you clog the middle. I have yet to see that strategy work against great individual players and I doubt it ever will. The Bulls at its peak has MJ, Pippen, Ron Harper, Rodman, and some seven-foot stiff on the floor; tell me if there is even one great 3-pt shooter among those five. I'm not comparing Wall/Evans to MJ/Pippen, but you get the point.

In the 90s zone defenses were illegal, so clogging the lane was much harder, making 3 point shooting less important. In today's NBA zone defense are legal, and 3 point shooting has become INCREDIBLY important if you want a good offense, it really is just too easy to clog the lane and limit slashers and post players without 3 point threats. For example, here's all the teams in the league ranked by offensive rating, with the number in the brackets being where said team ranks in terms of 3P%:

1) Phoenix (1)
2) Atlanta (9)
3) Denver (10)
4) Orlando (4)
5) Toronto (6)
6) Cleveland (2)
7) Portland (13)
8) Utah (7)
9) San Antonio (11)
10) Dallas (5)
11) LAL (24)
12) Memphis (26)
13) OKC (25)
14) GSW (3)
15) Boston (17)
16) NYK (21)
17) Houston (15)
18) New Orleans (8)
19) Miami (20)
20) Philly (22)
21) Detroit (30)
22) Sacramento (16)
23) Milwaukee (12)
24) Charlotte (19)
25) Washington (14)
26) Indiana (18)
27) Chicago (28)
28) LAC (27)
29) Minny (23)
30) NJ (29)

You will notice that the top 10 offenses in the league (1st-10th in terms of ORtg) are all ranked in the top 13 in 3P%, so all are above average to great 3 point shooting teams. Among the bottom 12 offenses in the league (19th-30th in terms of 3P%), 9 are poor 3 point shooting teams (ranked 18th-30th in 3P%), and the other 3 are mediocre from 3 (ranked 12th, 14th and 16th). And teams that have tonnes of offensive talent but poor 3 point shooting (Lakers with Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, etc., Memphis with Randolph, Mayo, Gay, Gasol, etc., OKC with Durant, Westbrook, Green, etc.) are not able to run top 10 offenses, despite being stacked with great slashers and post scorers. There is the odd outlier, the Warriors and Hornets both hit 3s but have average offenses, but both of those teams have terrible talent (Warriors were basically a d-league team with all their injuries, Hornets don't have much to work with when Paul is injured). For the most part, it's pretty clear that:

a) If you want a top offense, you better have a lot of good shooters
b) If you have great slashers/post players without shooters, your offense is going to under-perform and be average at best
c) If you have poor 3 point shooting, you're very likely going to have a poor offense

If you can't realize the importance of 3 point shooting to an offense in the modern NBA, I really don't know what to say.

[vincecarter4pres]

Yeah, but that didn't result in many wins and that's including the fact you guys had a slew of good three point shooters surrounding him, spreading the floor.
Now obvioulsy I'm not putting the lack of wins solely on him or the style, you are a very young team with no post presence, a crappy overall supporting cast and a lot of players trying to develop at the same time, but it does have to play some part in it.

And it neither proves or disproves that Wall and Evans can play together. Your point?

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I wasn't really talking about Wall and Evans playing together, hence the paragraph of your's I quoted and replied to only mentioned Evans.
I was simply making the point that a great one on one player certainly will still get his stat wise, but that very well may not result in a positive impact or a lot of wins.

[beb0p]

If you can't realize the importance of 3 point shooting to an offense in the modern NBA, I really don't know what to say.

You're trying to argue with me on a point that I didn't make and is irrelevant to the subject.

Where did I say you don't need 3-pt shooters? You always need shooters, just as you always need defenders. But you don't have to have the greatest sharp shooters in order to win and you certainly don't have to pair Evans/Wall with the absolute greatest 3-pt shooters in order to be effective.

The only question is whether Evans and Wall can play next to each other, and the answer is: certainly. I could care less if an Evans/Wall backcourt is top-10 or top-5 or top whatever. All I know is they can work together. The Lakers is a case in point, they're not even in the top 10 in offense but they're going to the WCF. So basically being a top-10 in offense is meaningless, irrelevant to the discussion of the effectiveness of an Evans/Wall pairing.

What I object to is the idea that there is one and only one way to build a team around Evans/Wall when the truth is there are a hundred different ways to build that team. And I object to the idea that you can beat that kind of a backcourt by just packing it in. Sure you can try to make teams like the Lakers, Thunder and the Grizzlies take jumpers, but at the end of the day they still won more games than they lost (except for the Griz but they're close to .500). And that's the only question that needs to be answered when for the Kings - can an Evans/Wall backcourt take you to the playoff? And the answer is: yes. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

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[beb0p]

I wasn't really talking about Wall and Evans playing together, hence the paragraph of your's I quoted and replied to only mentioned Evans.
I was simply making the point that a great one on one player certainly will still get his stat wise, but that very well may not result in a positive impact or a lot of wins.

In that case you've already answered your own question.

Now obvioulsy I'm not putting the lack of wins solely on him or the style, you are a very young team with no post presence, a crappy overall supporting cast and a lot of players trying to develop at the same time, but it does have to play some part in it.

The only thing I want to add is: not even MJ or Kobe could singlehandedly carry a team to the playoff. Even the greatest ones need help. It's not about style or whatever, it's about talent, simple as that.

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[khoffman3113]

People wanna talk about the lack of wins this year for the Kings to try and downplay Evans and the Kings style of play. Here is a newsflash for you: the Kings were the worst team in the NBA the year before they drafted Evans. The Kings won only 17 games. They also only one one game vs the Eastern Conference. They only won 6 road games as well. That team was bad.

The team turned it around this year and won 25 games which may not be a huge improvement. They fought hard and were in the majority of games they played. A lot of that was due to the fact Tyreke Evans was on the roster.

[vincecarter4pres]

The only thing I want to add is: not even MJ or Kobe could singlehandedly carry a team to the playoff

False.

If you meant to say even great players can't singlehandedly carry a team to the title, then that is true, but many a great player singlehandedly carry their teams to the playoffs season after season.

[beb0p]

The only thing I want to add is: not even MJ or Kobe could singlehandedly carry a team to the playoff

False.

If you meant to say even great players can't singlehandedly carry a team to the title, then that is true, but many a great player singlehandedly carry their teams to the playoffs season after season.

I was NOT talking about "many a great player", I was talking specifically about MJ and Kobe and specifically about instances in their career. MJ couldn't take the Wizards to the playoff and Kobe couldn't take the 04-05 Lakers to the playoff. Those are facts.

No one is dumb enough to say that no single great player has ever singlehandedly guided a team to playoff, and I certainly would never say that. Com'on man, you just want to argue.

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[KF10]

To all that says Evans' play is not conducive to winning, I think that is unfair to say.

Look at what he has around of him.

Carl Frkin' Landry is our legitimate option behind Evans. Before the Landry trade, it was Beno Udrih as our legitimate option behind Evans. You got guys like Thompson, Hawes, Greene, Casspi. Which are pretty solid young players but in no means able to be a consistent offensive threat yet.

We fielded the most inexperienced lineup in the history in the NBA multiple of times throughout the season. We had multiple lineup changes (only 2nd to the Warriors) this season.

I don't understand why you can make out a clear assessment of Evans' play and come to a conclusion that it harms successful basketball.

[vincecarter4pres]

The only thing I want to add is: not even MJ or Kobe could singlehandedly carry a team to the playoff

False.

If you meant to say even great players can't singlehandedly carry a team to the title, then that is true, but many a great player singlehandedly carry their teams to the playoffs season after season.

I was NOT talking about "many a great player", I was talking specifically about MJ and Kobe and specifically about instances in their career. MJ couldn't take the Wizards to the playoff and Kobe couldn't take the 04-05 Lakers to the playoff. Those are facts.

No one is dumb enough to say that no single great player has ever singlehandedly guided a team to playoff, and I certainly would never say that. Com'on man, you just want to argue.

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Mike on the Wiz and the only season in Kobe's career that he didn't make the playoffs in a season where he missed 16 games, but yeah, I'm the one that just wants to argue.

[beb0p]

Mike on the Wiz and the only season in Kobe's career that he didn't make the playoffs in a season where he missed 16 games, but yeah, I'm the one that just wants to argue.

Exactly, there were times when even MJ and Kobe couldn't do it. Is Evans as good as MJ or Kobe? I sure hope so but I don't think so. Plus, he was a rookie, so what was he supposed to do? Go 35-15-15 every night to will the Kings to 40 wins... as a rookie?

The subject of this thread is supposed to be an Evans + Wall backcourt but apparently you're more interested in why the Kings didn't win more games with Evans. A question that you youself answered: too young, too inexperienced, not enough talent, etc. I honestly have nothing more to add here.

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