Doug McDermott

Blast Tyrant · Post #41 » by **Blast Tyrant** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:57 pm

Not current Jamison or young Jamison, but the Jamison of 5 years ago.

Novocaine · Post #42 » by **Novocaine** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:28 pm

Jamison was a terrific post player. Great footwork with his b2b and superb finisher. McDermott is far worse in that, a much better shooter and not as athletic.

He reminds me of Ilyasova in Barcelona, that's probably my favourite comparison with a current NBA starter. Ilyasova was longer and more athletic though.

ManualRam wrote:guys like wally or dunleavy aren't the shooters that they were/are because of how fast they are or how well they can handle the ball. they got off their shots because they know how to move to get open, which doug does too.

Why do you think Wally declined so much post injuries? Or Dunleavy while he was recovering from that knee surgery? Their strong fundamentals as cutters were important, but so was their relative fastness and ball-handling. All those conditions were necessary. none was sufficient by itself. And if you think McDermott is at Wally's level in terms of ball-handling/quickness/off-the-dribble game, we have to agree to disagree.

BarkleyFan · Post #43 » by **BarkleyFan** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:01 am

Danny Ferry

doordoor123 · Post #44 » by **doordoor123** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:55 am

gags1288 wrote:Antawn Jamison is the best comparison, IMO.

Not at all.

BullsFTW · Post #45 » by **BullsFTW** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:52 pm

ManualRam wrote:
Impacien wrote:
ManualRam wrote:
what exactly was wally in his prime? a knock down spot up shooter with a little bit of box game. well, that describes doug too. doug is a knock down shooter who also scores near the paint via movement, cuts and quick posts. he also has a show-and-go game with an intermediate pull up/push shot game as well as a mid-post face up game where he uses the threat of the shot and his footwork to get off quick releases.

Catch-and-shoot wasn't even half of Wally's offense and that's adding his cuts off screens to spot-up situations. You're probably thinking of him in the Cavs, post injuries, because in Minny and Boston he was much more dynamic than that. He was one of the best shooters off the dribble in the league. Very good at using fakes and small dribble moves to create space to get his shot off. He was pretty solid at drawing fouls and attacking off the dribble. Difficult to think of spot up shooters with a little bit of box game scoring 20ppg as the second option - in any case, Wally wasn't that. He wasn't even that reliant on his long range shot - his FTrate was always higher than his 3PA rate, something that will probably surprise you, considering how you described him. I have no idea how McDermott will be able to do the same; and I suspect that neither do you, which suggests Wally isn't a good comparison.

I just don't see in McDermott the kind of ball-handling and perimeter shot creation that guys like Wally (or even Dunleavy, or say, Aaron Afflalo) had and he simply isn't as quick as them, cutting, curling, whatever. He's a fundamentally good cutter but he'll struggle to create separation from NBA wings - different story if he's being guarded by slower bigger players.

Anyway, this discussion is a bit immaterial as I dont' believe there's a single team that will seriously consider McDermott as a wing in the NBA.

no i'm thinking of wally when he was in his prime. he wasn't getting defenders off balance with his athleticism or handle. he used craftiness and strength. he had an excellent shot fake, would show-n-go for one dribble pulls, shoulder defenders to create space, fake/escape dribble for long 2's, used quick down screens for jumpers, etc. well, doug has all that in his arsenal too. the difference b/t the 2 athletically is negligible at best. the main difference b/t the 2 physically is strength, where wally was a bit of a bully which helped him create shots from the midpost (ie shouldering defenders to create space for a lean back jumper). doug might not be quite as strong, but he does know how to use his body, footwork and fakes to create space. he also has an uncanny ability to quick release the ball accurately from odd angles. he's got that cedric ceballos, antawn jamison type game near the painted area where he can flash, catch and quick release the ball before the defense can even react.

wally's FT rate wasn't anything of note. neither was his 3 ball volume, but i suspect if he played in today's game he'd be more 3 ball heavy as opposed to being the master of the long 2. he wasn't a player who could just be given the ball on the perimeter and be expected to go to work. he wasn't that type of shot creator. all the stuff described above was mostly executed off of passes. outside of maybe the midpost area where wally could catch and body other wings, he did not have good iso capability.

i see dougie as primarily a spot up, catch and 1 move, simple down screen shooter from the perimeter, while being a slippery, constant motion, quick release player who can also make himself available for quick posts (like cross screen/flex action), pop up shots in holes in the defense while also being utilized in the ball screen game. when a player knows how to use his teammates, understands how to use screens, understands angles, knows how to read defenders (like reading eyes, foot position, if the defender is cheating) then they will get separation. perpetual motion players are difficult to defend because it requires concentration at all times and coordination among multiple defenders. with doug's uncanny ability to release the ball quickly and accurately, he only needs a sliver of daylight.

guys like wally or dunleavy aren't the shooters that they were/are because of how fast they are or how well they can handle the ball. they got off their shots because they know how to move to get open, which doug does too.

He has terrific scoring tools, but I do wonder how he will fare defensively if he were to become a starting small forward in the league.

Again Man Ram, excellent analysis.

ManualRam · Post #46 » by **ManualRam** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:25 pm

Impacien wrote:
Why do you think Wally declined so much post injuries? Or Dunleavy while he was recovering from that knee surgery? Their strong fundamentals as cutters were important, but so was their relative fastness and ball-handling. All those conditions were necessary. none was sufficient by itself. And if you think McDermott is at Wally's level in terms of ball-handling/quickness/off-the-dribble game, we have to agree to disagree.

slow getting slower. suffering the same decline that plenty of injured players experience. going to different teams and not enjoying the same role that he had previously, like no longer being a 2nd option or no longer being set in motion and primarily being used as a spot up shooter.

dunleavy's speed is as mediocre as it ever was, yet he still gets open for shots for the bulls because he knows how to get open, the bulls have willing, good screeners and execute their floppy sets really well. he's not getting open because he's fast or creating space with his handle outside of the single move off of a catch, which is set up by the threat of the shot.

ceremony816 · Post #47 » by **ceremony816** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:10 pm

Mike Miller?

ManualRam · Post #48 » by **ManualRam** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:23 pm

ceremony816 wrote:Mike Miller?

young mike miller was a heck of a ball-handler and playmaker. he can still handle the ball some, but he doesn't really go anywhere when he does.
doug doesn't have that capability. he is a decent passer though, especially when passing out of doubles, but i doubt he'll be seeing too many doubles in the nba.

SkywalkerAC · Post #49 » by **SkywalkerAC** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:37 pm

Patrick Patterson, though he's become solid as a defender.

Sweet Stroke · Post #50 » by **Sweet Stroke** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:04 am

I would call him a cross between Reggie Miller and Wally. Obviously he's not going to be as good as Reggie, But he knows how to move without the ball, has excellent mechanics on his shot, quick release, and works hard without the ball. Is smart enough to use size or speed mismatches and is as good in mid-range as he is spotting up from three.

Defensively, yea he's not going to stop many people. I think he could be a great specialist for a good team, or a very average starter (thats only if he can score enough to offset the D). I bet he goes around 15-20. He does have some upside though IMO.

Sweet Stroke · Post #51 » by **Sweet Stroke** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:05 am

Also, worst case scenario imo is Keith Van Horn. Which isn't so bad for a late lotto pick.

Novocaine · Post #52 » by **Novocaine** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:15 am

ManualRam wrote:
Impacien wrote:
Why do you think Wally declined so much post injuries? Or Dunleavy while he was recovering from that knee surgery? Their strong fundamentals as cutters were important, but so was their relative fastness and ball-handling. All those conditions were necessary. none was sufficient by itself. And if you think McDermott is at Wally's level in terms of ball-handling/quickness/off-the-dribble game, we have to agree to disagree.

slow getting slower. suffering the same decline that plenty of injured players experience. going to different teams and not enjoying the same role that he had previously, like no longer being a 2nd option or no longer being set in motion and primarily being used as a spot up shooter.

dunleavy's speed is as mediocre as it ever was, yet he still gets open for shots for the bulls because he knows how to get open, the bulls have willing, good screeners and execute their floppy sets really well. he's not getting open because he's fast or creating space with his handle outside of the single move off of a catch, which is set up by the threat of the shot.

Nonsense. When Dunleavy had that knee bone spur and after the surgery to remove it and the long pause that it followed, he was slower than he is today or was before. And his game suffered accordingly - just like Wally's after the injury.

His great fundamentals weren't enough to get open any more.

I understand if you didn't watch Jim O'Brien's Pacers much back then. I did. And I assure you, Dunleavy was really slow back then: at a McDermott's level of slowness.

McDermott might be a good scoring 4 in the NBA. At the 3, he's DOA.

ManualRam · Post #53 » by **ManualRam** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:26 am

Impacien wrote:
ManualRam wrote:
Impacien wrote:
Why do you think Wally declined so much post injuries? Or Dunleavy while he was recovering from that knee surgery? Their strong fundamentals as cutters were important, but so was their relative fastness and ball-handling. All those conditions were necessary. none was sufficient by itself. And if you think McDermott is at Wally's level in terms of ball-handling/quickness/off-the-dribble game, we have to agree to disagree.

slow getting slower. suffering the same decline that plenty of injured players experience. going to different teams and not enjoying the same role that he had previously, like no longer being a 2nd option or no longer being set in motion and primarily being used as a spot up shooter.

dunleavy's speed is as mediocre as it ever was, yet he still gets open for shots for the bulls because he knows how to get open, the bulls have willing, good screeners and execute their floppy sets really well. he's not getting open because he's fast or creating space with his handle outside of the single move off of a catch, which is set up by the threat of the shot.

Nonsense. When Dunleavy had that knee bone spur and after the surgery to remove it and the long pause that it followed, he was slower than he is today or was before. And his game suffered accordingly - just like Wally's after the injury.

His great fundamentals weren't enough to get open any more.

I understand if you didn't watch Jim O'Brien's Pacers much back then. I did. And I assure you, Dunleavy was really slow back then: at a McDermott's level of slowness.

McDermott might be a good scoring 4 in the NBA. At the 3, he's DOA.

actually mdj's fundamentals are enough to get him open, especially on a team that is great at executing off-ball screen action like the bulls. his speed is nothing of note at all. his speed isn't what gets him open. the bulls' willing screeners, mdj setting up the screens, coming off at the proper angles and executing the right counters (ex. defender goes over the double, flare to the corner) gets him open. mcdermott's already well-versed in that game and i think he'd be just as effective if used in the same fashion.

Post #54 » by **165bows** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:04 am

Who's a better: A. Shooter B. Pro prospect

McDermott or Nik Stauskas?

Notanoob · Post #55 » by **Notanoob** » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:13 am

As a UM fan, I think McDermott is a better shooter, but Nik is a better prospect. After basically never missing his freshman year, his shooting has seemed off to me. McDermott has been an excellent shooter for 4 years now. His 3pt% is just absurd. However, McDermott looks really, really slow for a guy who could go in the lottery. By sheer shooting ability he'll make it, but he'll have a ton of trouble guarding anybody. Nik on the other hand looks like he's at least athletic enough to do okay, and could guard the scrubs who start in the NBA at SG. I think he's go marginally more potential, but naturally I'm biased.

Ell Curry · Post #56 » by **Ell Curry** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:46 pm

Stauskas can run the pick and roll and McD will probably struggle to do so in the NBA. Neither will be anything but bad on D for a few years, hopefully getting to average by the end of their rookie deals (a la Redick).

The league is so weak at SG and SF that I would have no problem drafting these dudes as long as I had a wing who can handle the tough assignments, like Chicago has in Butler or Memphis in Allen.

E-Balla · Post #57 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:11 pm

Doug will be a monster. Can't stop a player that makes everything and had great instincts without the ball. He'll at least be better than Klay Thompson who somehow got Reggie Miller comparisons.

jmnvcavs · Post #58 » by **jmnvcavs** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:32 pm

GC Pantalones wrote:Doug will be a monster. Can't stop a player that makes everything and had great instincts without the ball. He'll at least be better than Klay Thompson who somehow got Reggie Miller comparisons.

...........

ChiefWiggumz · Post #59 » by **ChiefWiggumz** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:17 am

Better than Klay!?!? What the hell?

He will probably be a Ryan Anderson type player. Shooter who can grab some boards.

He will have a lot of trouble on defense but will be quick and efficient offense as a 6th, 7th or 8th man.

RSCD3_ · Post #60 » by **RSCD3_** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:03 am

ManualRam wrote:
ceremony816 wrote:Mike Miller?

young mike miller was a heck of a ball-handler and playmaker. he can still handle the ball some, but he doesn't really go anywhere when he does.
doug doesn't have that capability. he is a decent passer though, especially when passing out of doubles, but i doubt he'll be seeing too many doubles in the nba.

He was also just as athletic as chandler parsons who is far superior to doug

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