Redraft 2011-2014 combined

[DickGrayson]

How is Wiggins better than Leonard?

[MrPerfect1]

I rated based on what I think are the Top 3 Tiers of the Redraft. I didn't rate those I think would be in Tier 4 or Below. Embiid, Beal, and Noel could be argued into Tier 3, but I think compelling reasons make each more appropriate in a Tier 4.


TIER 1
---------
1)Davis (No brainer-Possibly Already Best Player in the NBA)

TIER 2 (Current or Future All Stars at Minimum)
---------
2)Giannis/Gobert (Depends on the Need of the Team Drafting)
3)Giannis/Gobert (Depends on the Need of the Team Drafting)
4)Leonard (Finals MVP, DPOY. Questions remain how he would do as THE guy on a team and his ceiling)
5)Butler (Versatile 2 Way Player at a Weak Position around the League)
6)Kyrie (Debatable for him vs Drummond and Lillard. Kyrie without Lebron could only produce 30ish wins and is injury prone)
7)Drummond (Lack of much improvement is worrisome)
8)Lillard

TIER 3
----------
9)Wiggins (Shown flashes but much less efficient than stats suggest this year, although is common for rookies. Could be argued into Tier 2)
10) Thompson (Breakout Season this year but benefits immensely from Curry. Yes I know he was an All Star this year)
11)Parker (almost impossible to rate due to injury but would still have huge upside for many teams)

[j-ragg]

1. A.Davis
2. K.Thompson
3. K.Irving
4. K.Leonard
5. A.Wiggins
6. J. Butler
7. D.Lillard
8. A.Drummond
9. N.Vucevic (Possible swap with Gobert)
10. R. Gobert
11. B.Beal
12. T.Harris
13. J.Embiid
14. V.Oladipo
15. G.Antetokounmpo
16. J.Parker
17. N.Mirotic
18. E.Payton
19. N.Noel
20. J.Valenciunas

As a Magic fan what makes you value Harris over Oladipo and Payton? Just curious, I haven't watched many Magic games but I would take the latter two talent-wise.

Yeah he is on some other stuff. Aaron Gordon IMO has the highest ceiling on our team. I'd rank ours
1. Gordon
2. Payton
3. Oladipo
4. Harris

[HeartBreakKid]

Aaron Gordon, really? Not only does he have a very low chance of reaching his ceiling, I don't even know what his ceiling is supposed to be realistically.

If Payton learns how to shoot he could shimmy his way into being a top 5 PG and realistically a player like Oladipo could already be All NBA quality in the East if his team could muster up some more wins. I don't see Aaron Gordon with that type of ceiling at all.

[HeartBreakKid]

1) Anthony Davis (would be #1 even if we didn't take into account NBA play)
2) Kawhi Leonard
3) Joel Embiid
4) Giannis Antenkompo
5) Jabari Parker
6) Andrew Wiggins
7) Jimmy Butler
8) Victor Oladipo
9) Rudy Gobert
10) Nerlens Noel
11) Kyrie Irving
12) Andre Drummond
13) Klay Thompson
14) Michael Kid-Gilchrest

Might as well break this down real quick before I expand it to 30.

Davis is tier 1. Still very young and arguably the best player in the league. If he puts it together, he really has no ceiling.

Leonard is a somewhat distant second. Leonard (along with Butler) have amazing work ethic and a natural affinity for learning. He's already one of the best players in the entire league. He can shoot, has a legit post game, one of the best perimeter defenders I've ever seen - handles and passing haven't been tested too heavily for him, but the guy is a franchise player already.

Joel Embiid is arguably in the same tier as Leonard. Questions about his injuries, but if he can play at least 65 games he will likely be a very good player. His passing ability, coordination and defense are all extremely high level when you factor in how little he has played. All the other players just have not shown the two way promise that Embiid has as a freshmen.

Antenkompo, Parker and Wiggins are all the same age, position and pretty much the same tier. I think Giannis is the best prospect because he is the most raw, yet currently better than Wiggins and arguably Parker as well. Antenkompo also has the most unique and possibly effective NBA body. Antenkompo has absolutely outstanding handles, which I think gives him a better ceiling than Wiggins despite Wiggins having much better shooting range atm. Wiggins lack of handle also makes me want to put him behind Parker, who I think actually has a higher ceiling than Wiggins. Parker can be a Paul Pierce type of player, Wiggins to me can be a slightly better Paul George (though it is interesting he is working on a post game this early). Wiggins to me has the safer floor but lower ceiling, which is the polar opposite to what most people think in Wiggins vs Parker. Parker was also better than Wiggins the first 25 games they played.

Jimmy Butler and Victor Oladipo are slightly older than the aforementioned group but also in their tier. Jimmy Butler is an elite two way player, and Oladipo is on his way to becoming a very similar player to Butler (a bit smaller, but better athlete). Overall, Jimmy Butler is a near top ten guy, and that's somewhat close to what I see guys like Wiggins and Parker becoming (their ceilings should be slightly higher).


If Gobert and Noel could shoot up these rankings if we re-did this again in another season. They're both extremely impressive defensively, they could become one of those players who are so good on the defensive end that they are better than many great two way players. Noel really has no natural feel for offense though, some of the shots he misses in the paint is astonishing when you consider how great of an athlete he is. Gobert is the better prospect, he is a true center, much bigger than the average center in fact, and had a superior season than Noel.


Irving and Drummond are the next tier. Neither I see being as big impact players as Noel and Gobert who are DPOY caliber prospects. Drummond might end up being better than Irving, but his lack of progress while Irving improved makes me give Irving the benefit of the doubt. Now that I am revisiting this list, I feel like Drummond should probably go ahead of Irving, as 5 years from now he would probably be the more valuable commodity even if he doesn't improve all that much. Anyway, Irving still has a lot of the same weaknesses he's always had, only difference is his efficiency has went up - but I think a lot of that has to come with playing with Lebron James. He's been in the league for a min now, and we haven't even seen an inkling of him learning how to run the point, and he is still a pretty weak defender though he has improved effort at least.


Thompson and MKG are last. Thompson can't really create his own shot like someone like Kyrie, so I think Kyrie is probably a better prospect though Thompson is the superior two way player. Thompson's elite 3 point shooting makes him very portable, he can fit into any team, while MKG needs a team to be heavily modified for him to be totally effective. It's still a long shot that MKG can a good shooter despite his improvements, but with his DPOY caliber defense, he could be as good as Kawhi Leonard if he ever somehow became as good of a shooter as him (though Kawhi always had good touch in college while MKG was absolutely horrendous).

[OrlMagic05]

1. A.Davis
2. K.Thompson
3. K.Irving
4. K.Leonard
5. A.Wiggins
6. J. Butler
7. D.Lillard
8. A.Drummond
9. N.Vucevic (Possible swap with Gobert)
10. R. Gobert
11. B.Beal
12. T.Harris
13. J.Embiid
14. V.Oladipo
15. G.Antetokounmpo
16. J.Parker
17. N.Mirotic
18. E.Payton
19. N.Noel
20. J.Valenciunas

As a Magic fan what makes you value Harris over Oladipo and Payton? Just curious, I haven't watched many Magic games but I would take the latter two talent-wise.

Yeah he is on some other stuff. Aaron Gordon IMO has the highest ceiling on our team. I'd rank ours
1. Gordon
2. Payton
3. Oladipo
4. Harris

I'm on some other stuff? You have Gordon at 1 and completely left Vuc off the list... I am not saying that gap between Harris and Oladipo is great, but as of today Tobias' game is further along.

1 Vuc
2 Harris/Oladipo
3 Oladipo/Harris
4 Payton

[j-ragg]

I don't know if you know how ceilings work. But Vucevic's isn't very high. Gordon's is.

[OrlMagic05]

I don't know if you know how ceilings work. But Vucevic's isn't very high. Gordon's is.

Let's say Vuc has reached his ceiling. 19.3ppg 11reb and a 21.62PER are very good numbers! I dont EVER see Gordon reaching those numbers. I'm not calling Gordon a bust, but I do not see him being an All-Star quality player like Vuc.

[OrlMagic05]

Aaron Gordon, really? Not only does he have a very low chance of reaching his ceiling, I don't even know what his ceiling is supposed to be realistically.

If Payton learns how to shoot he could shimmy his way into being a top 5 PG and realistically a player like Oladipo could already be All NBA quality in the East if his team could muster up some more wins. I don't see Aaron Gordon with that type of ceiling at all.

I agree with this! Aaron Gordon is such a unique player, but I don't see his ceiling as an All-Star.

Oladipo definitely played like an All NBA player after the coaching change/All-star break.

[bobsquad]

I don't know if you know how ceilings work. But Vucevic's isn't very high. Gordon's is.

Agreed that Gordon has the higher ceiling, but I'd say Vucevic's odds of being an All-Star at some point in his career are better.

[tmorgan]

People writing that Andre Drummond hasn't improved bother me. I know it shouldn't, but you CLEARLY AREN'T WATCHING HIM PLAY if you think he hasn't improved in a number of ways already. Box score analysts is my opinion.

EDIT: The one thing that hasn't improved is his free throw shooting, which does bug me.

[slothrop8]

I think some people are undervaluing Wiggins. He's the youngest player on these lists and just put up 20 and 5 on 44.6% post All-Star break. He shot the 6th most free throws in the league this year - playing most of it as a 19 yr old rookie. Whatever else he may become, all the indicators of a player who is going to be an elite scorer are present in this guy.There are no guarantees in player development - but based on what we saw the second half of the season how could anyone be shocked if by 2016-2017 Wiggins was putting up 24/6/4 at about 48% FG and really starting to figure it out defensively? That might be an optimistic projection - but it's realistic I think and he'll still at that point be 4 years younger than Jimmy Butler is right now. I think if somehow real NBA teams were re-drafting those 4 classes this season (and what a glorious quick fix for the Knicks and Lakers that would be for the NBA - this may actually happen, stay tuned) Wiggins would go 2nd right after Anthony Davis.
It's a very simplistic way to look at it, but there are only 2 guys on that list who I could imagine being both the NBA scoring leader and 1st team all-defense at some point in their careers - Davis and Wiggins.

My top 3
Davis
Wiggins
Leonard

[moss_is_1]

Rudy Gobert used to be really high on peoples mock drafts though, I remember asking why he fell off and never really getting a clear response.

Sometimes I feel like people just go with the flow and follow trends.

He started to rise, then he did pretty poorly in workouts. Got dominated by a lot of the big in the same draft tier. I know that pushed him back on the Wolves board and they took Dieng instead.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think some people are undervaluing Wiggins. He's the youngest player on these lists and just put up 20 and 5 on 44.6% post All-Star break. He shot the 6th most free throws in the league this year - playing most of it as a 19 yr old rookie. Whatever else he may become, all the indicators of a player who is going to be an elite scorer are present in this guy.There are no guarantees in player development - but based on what we saw the second half of the season how could anyone be shocked if by 2016-2017 Wiggins was putting up 24/6/4 at about 48% FG and really starting to figure it out defensively? That might be an optimistic projection - but it's realistic I think and he'll still at that point be 4 years younger than Jimmy Butler is right now. I think if somehow real NBA teams were re-drafting those 4 classes this season (and what a glorious quick fix for the Knicks and Lakers that would be for the NBA - this may actually happen, stay tuned) Wiggins would go 2nd right after Anthony Davis.
It's a very simplistic way to look at it, but there are only 2 guys on that list who I could imagine being both the NBA scoring leader and 1st team all-defense at some point in their careers - Davis and Wiggins.

My top 3
Davis
Wiggins
Leonard

His rookie season really is not all that great, and a lot of the things he has done statistically just comes from him playing on the worst team in the league and having free reigns to experiment and generally do what he wants to do.

He's like a month or two younger than Giannis, and there's nothing that clearly makes him better to me.

[Webbdog]

1) Anthony Davis
2) Andre Drummond
3) Kyrie Irving
4) Damien Lillard
5) Klay Thompson
6) Reggie Jackson
7) Joel Embiid
8) Nic Vucevic
9) Donatas Motiejunas
10) Brandon Knight
11) Bradley Beal
12) N. Mirotic
13) Julius Randle
14) Dante Exum
15) Nerlens Noel
16) Noah Vonleh
17) Michael Carter Williams
18) Andrew Wiggins
19) Jabari Parker
20) Steven Adams
21) Isaiah Thomas
22) Aaron Gordon
23) Enes Kanter
24) Dario Saric
25) Kawhi Leonard
26) Jimmy Butler
27) Kentavious Caldwell Pope
28) Jared Sullinger
29) Rudy Gobert
30) Victor Oladipo
31) Tobias Harris
32) Mitch McGary
33) Giannis Antetekounmpo
34) Chandler Parson
35) Khris Middleton

[76thBearCub]

1) Anthony Davis
2) Andre Drummond
3) Kyrie Irving
4) Damien Lillard
5) Klay Thompson
6) Reggie Jackson
7) Joel Embiid
8) Nic Vucevic
9) Donatas Motiejunas
10) Brandon Knight
11) Bradley Beal
12) N. Mirotic
13) Julius Randle
14) Dante Exum
15) Nerlens Noel
16) Noah Vonleh
17) Michael Carter Williams
18) Andrew Wiggins
19) Jabari Parker
20) Steven Adams
21) Isaiah Thomas
22) Aaron Gordon
23) Enes Kanter
24) Dario Saric
25) Kawhi Leonard
26) Jimmy Butler
27) Kentavious Caldwell Pope
28) Jared Sullinger
29) Rudy Gobert
30) Victor Oladipo
31) Tobias Harris
32) Mitch McGary
33) Giannis Antetekounmpo
34) Chandler Parson
35) Khris Middleton

Thank you

[Mr-Al]

Len > Noel

[Mr-Al]

Also why the **** is Exum on this list

let alone so high