Reed Sheppard and Rob Dillingham - 2024 NBA Draft

[clyde21]

lol @ Reed being better than Steph as a freshmen

Steph as a freshmen in his first game in the tournament dropped a 30 bomb on Maryland.

leading up to the tournament, in 3 games in the southern conference tournament leading up to the round of 64, dropped 20, 30 and 29 points respectively.

[The Moose]

how? This class is starting to remind me of the underrated 2016 class that everyone claimed sucked. 2016 and 2024 are the two best international classes ever imo. 2016 had nearly 30 international kids and several standouts (Simmons, Hield, Poeltl, Sabonis, Siakam,
Zubac) Like 2024, the 2016 OAD were weaker but it was more than made up for by its international players.

Here's 20 guys likely to be drafted (assuming they come out) from the 2024 class

Sarr
Yang
Risacher
Topic
Salaun
George
Missi
Furphy
Ajinca
Klintman
Perrin
Ivisic
Nunez
Bona
Dadiet
Almansa
Chomche
da Silva
Mitchell
Larsson

For comparison's sake, past international classes' totals (not including Canada) with good players in brackets:

2020 = 14 (Avdija)

2021 = 17 (Giddey, Kuminga, Wagner)

2022 = 15 (Sochan)

2023 = 9 (Wembanyama, Coulibaly?)

I believe he meant, International by not playing in the NCAA. Half of the guys you listed play in the NCAAs.

if so he's wrong. That's not what international stands for in draft circles. It's where the player was born and grew up playing basketball. If it went by where a player played to acquire their NBA eligibility (post high school) then guys like Melo would be considered international because he played overseas and we know he wasn't. I think there's a distinction or gray area should a foreign born player that grew up overseas comes to the U.S. and plays high school basketball. Some might consider them still international but I wouldn't because they would have been exposed to American basketball, the AAU circuit and acclimated by the draft.

Yes as King Ken said, I don't usually consider the international guys in the NCAA as part of the 'international' class for a draft from a scouting perspective. Mostly because when they are in the NCAA there is an easier framework to assess and contextualise their performance relative to other prospects. Fair enough if you do though, no problem with that. However, it's this difficulty to contextualise their performances relative to others that I believe is leading them to being overrated, and consistently misdrafted by NBA evaluators.

A guy like Sengun was not considered a lottery pick, despite being MVP of the Turkish league at 18 and putting up insane production but a guy like Risacher is apparently a top 3 lock. Doncic being the EuroLeague MVP at 18/19 yrs, and somehow not being the unanimous 1st pick amongst NBA evaluators, even draft twitter had him as the number 1.

But anyway, I say overrated in reference to the top guys, specifically Sarr, Risacher, Salaun, Klintman. Givony and most mainstream boards have Sarr and Risacher as consensus top 5 guys, Salaun as top 10ish and I just don't buy it at all.

The EV of drafting guys who are role players in international leagues hasn't been there. The only two overseas pro league guys who have been producing at a level I would feel comfortable drafting very high are Topic and Yang.

[ROballer]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

[JustBuzzin]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Let's be real this draft sucks as a whole. Most of these players are projected to be high end role players at best.

Can you give me 1 single player who you can say has legit superstar talent?

[King Ken]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Let's be real this draft sucks as a whole. Most of these players are projected to be high end role players at best.

Can you give me 1 single player who you can say has legit superstar talent?

Superstar talent is different than could be a superstar as an overall player. There isn't a superstar talent in this draft. Usually, there are never superstar talents in draft. Most superstars don't become superstars on talent alone. You act like Michael Jordan, Hakeem, and Wemby's are common, they aren't. Even superstar talents like Blake Griffin and Zion don't always become superstars.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I believe he meant, International by not playing in the NCAA. Half of the guys you listed play in the NCAAs.

if so he's wrong. That's not what international stands for in draft circles. It's where the player was born and grew up playing basketball. If it went by where a player played to acquire their NBA eligibility (post high school) then guys like Melo would be considered international because he played overseas and we know he wasn't. I think there's a distinction or gray area should a foreign born player that grew up overseas comes to the U.S. and plays high school basketball. Some might consider them still international but I wouldn't because they would have been exposed to American basketball, the AAU circuit and acclimated by the draft.

Yes as King Ken said, I don't usually consider the international guys in the NCAA as part of the 'international' class for a draft from a scouting perspective. Mostly because when they are in the NCAA there is an easier framework to assess and contextualise their performance relative to other prospects. Fair enough if you do though, no problem with that. However, it's this difficulty to contextualise their performances relative to others that I believe is leading them to being overrated, and consistently misdrafted by NBA evaluators.

A guy like Sengun was not considered a lottery pick, despite being MVP of the Turkish league at 18 and putting up insane production but a guy like Risacher is apparently a top 3 lock. Doncic being the EuroLeague MVP at 18/19 yrs, and somehow not being the unanimous 1st pick amongst NBA evaluators, even draft twitter had him as the number 1.

But anyway, I say overrated in reference to the top guys, specifically Sarr, Risacher, Salaun, Klintman. Givony and most mainstream boards have Sarr and Risacher as consensus top 5 guys, Salaun as top 10ish and I just don't buy it at all.

The EV of drafting guys who are role players in international leagues hasn't been there. The only two overseas pro league guys who have been producing at a level I would feel comfortable drafting very high are Topic and Yang.

The difference between these guys and Sengun is their performance in international tournaments and strengths of their leagues compared to the Turkish league. They're also wildly more athletic and can shoot. Besides, most people thought Sengun should have gone higher.

It's been explained ad nauseam but again, these "role players" don't start overseas, not because of lack of talent or because they're not the best players but because they're playing with grown men on teams trying to win with guys that will be with their teams for years. They almost resent these kids using their leagues as stepping stones on their way to the NBA. It makes evaluating them more difficult but that's why we have international tournaments and showcases. It's also why the combine, where they'll finally be on the floor with all the other draft picks and they'll get measured and do drills, is so important.

I'm fortunate enough to have watched a lot of international play last summer. At 18 y/o these guys stood out. Spain and France, where most of these guys played, dominate international play. What happened was instead of being impressed by this fact and these players the "experts" used it to paint a picture that our in-coming freshmen class was atrocious instead. They couldn't just elevate the international kids without being negative about our guys. That's their failure. Then of course everyone who gets their opinions from these guys regurgitated this narrative on here and that's how we ended up where we are.

It shouldn't matter where the top talents come from. The only thing that matters is if there's in fact talent. So what if the international class, for the first time in NBA history, is more talented than the U.S. OADs? It was bound to happen given how Giannis, Luka and Wembanyama have inspired millions in Europe and all of these African academies have sprung up.

I'll remind you, these guys are all still 18 y/o. They've got years to grow and develop. But in each and every instance they have great size, length and athleticism for their positions. All translatable traits. We don't have to worry about these things like we do with guys like Dillingham, Sheppard, Filipowski, McCain, etc. And we don't have to worry about potential upside due to age like with Knecht, McCullar, Edey, Kolek, da Silva, Watkins, etc. It makes perfect sense why evaluators are supposedly higher on the younger prospects that can shoot and that have upside after telling us for months it's a garbage OAD class and one of the weakest draft classes ever lmao

[FarBeyondDriven]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Let's be real this draft sucks as a whole. Most of these players are projected to be high end role players at best.

Can you give me 1 single player who you can say has legit superstar talent?

I'm not a casual who judges draft classes by the supposed superstar talent. How many times have these "experts" told us guys at the top of draft classes had "superstar talent" and they were dead wrong? How many times do late draft picks taken long after these supposed superstar talents, have to prove how clueless these yahoos are by making all-nba teams before people stop respecting their opinions?

As long as a draft class ends up with a lottery worth of starters and high end role players it's not weak. Period. People have really poor memories. Just go back through the past 10 drafts. You'll find there are far fewer great players than experts thought there'd be when they ranked the draft class as strong. And you'll also find that except for a couple of drafts (17, 18), the experts have been wrong about draft classes every year. If they said it was great it turned out weak or average, if they said it was weak it turned out strong. 2024 might be another example of this. And if so, I will be incessantly reminded all of you how wrong you were

[ROballer]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Let's be real this draft sucks as a whole. Most of these players are projected to be high end role players at best.

Can you give me 1 single player who you can say has legit superstar talent?

What does any of this have to do with my post?

I said don't judge a player by one game, it's just dumb. Scouts and the decision making people obviously don't, hence the Jaylen Brown example.

If you think a bad tourney game will make people drop 5-10 draft positions like some are suggesting, you keep that opinion to yourself because it's a terrible take.

[Big J]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Let's be real this draft sucks as a whole. Most of these players are projected to be high end role players at best.

Can you give me 1 single player who you can say has legit superstar talent?

What does any of this have to do with my post?

I said don't judge a player by one game, it's just dumb. Scouts and the decision making people obviously don't, hence the Jaylen Brown example.

If you think a bad tourney game will make people drop 5-10 draft positions like some are suggesting, you keep that opinion to yourself because it's a terrible take.

Except that Jalen Brown was a different kind of animal than these kids. Everyone knew he would be awesome because of his athleticism, so that made it easy to overlook his bad tourney. These dudes don’t have anything special going for them in the first place, and they are showing that they wilt on thr biggest stage.

[Mr Peanut]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Recency bias is one of the worst phenomena in sport.

[OriAr]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

Recency bias is one of the worst phenomena in sport.

Fortunately, NBA executives know better seeing that Brandon Miller got drafted 2nd overall last year and not in the 2nd round seeing he absolutely flopped in the tournament.
NBA executives will make their decisions on the entire season's worth of film for Reed and Rob, and both has shown enough to give themselves both top 5 consideration, no matter how bad last Thursday was (And it was bad, but Cal didn't help them at all either).

[ROballer]

Let's be real this draft sucks as a whole. Most of these players are projected to be high end role players at best.

Can you give me 1 single player who you can say has legit superstar talent?

What does any of this have to do with my post?

I said don't judge a player by one game, it's just dumb. Scouts and the decision making people obviously don't, hence the Jaylen Brown example.

If you think a bad tourney game will make people drop 5-10 draft positions like some are suggesting, you keep that opinion to yourself because it's a terrible take.

Except that Jalen Brown was a different kind of animal than these kids. Everyone knew he would be awesome because of his athleticism, so that made it easy to overlook his bad tourney. These dudes don’t have anything special going for them in the first place, and they are showing that they wilt on thr biggest stage.

And if they drop it will be exactly because of what you said, not because of play in a cherry picked random ass game.

That's the point.

[JMAC3]

I find it mind boggling people are dropping them in mocks after one **** game.

Not by their skills, intangibles, measurements or lack of thereof, etc. Nope, one game in the tourney.

Absolutely hilarious.

Jaylen Brown had 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 7 turnovers against Hawaii when Cali were eliminated in the first round.

Oh, and he shot 3-17 and 1-6 again the two games before this, in the conference championship. By this logic, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, let alone lottery.

Now he's got a 300 mil contract and turned out just fine.


And there are plenty more examples like that.
Stop the nonsense!

I don't think anyone is dropping them based on one game though. A lot of people were already out, others had heavy concerns and were on the fence and the lack of aggressiveness is enought to push them off the fence.

The excuse that Kentucky has too many guys so Reed and Dilingham will have some quiet games doesn't really work when they are losing games to Oakland and losing their first game in SEC Tourney. TAMU starting guards had 72 pts in the SEC tourney game then gave up 32 to Gohlke in the Dance.... Kentucky getting torched by other teams guards all year has to eventually fall back on to Sheppard and Dillingham at some point.

Even though both have talent, neither is a very clean fit to be starters in the NBA as rookies due to tweener size/skillsets.

[The Moose]

if so he's wrong. That's not what international stands for in draft circles. It's where the player was born and grew up playing basketball. If it went by where a player played to acquire their NBA eligibility (post high school) then guys like Melo would be considered international because he played overseas and we know he wasn't. I think there's a distinction or gray area should a foreign born player that grew up overseas comes to the U.S. and plays high school basketball. Some might consider them still international but I wouldn't because they would have been exposed to American basketball, the AAU circuit and acclimated by the draft.

Yes as King Ken said, I don't usually consider the international guys in the NCAA as part of the 'international' class for a draft from a scouting perspective. Mostly because when they are in the NCAA there is an easier framework to assess and contextualise their performance relative to other prospects. Fair enough if you do though, no problem with that. However, it's this difficulty to contextualise their performances relative to others that I believe is leading them to being overrated, and consistently misdrafted by NBA evaluators.

A guy like Sengun was not considered a lottery pick, despite being MVP of the Turkish league at 18 and putting up insane production but a guy like Risacher is apparently a top 3 lock. Doncic being the EuroLeague MVP at 18/19 yrs, and somehow not being the unanimous 1st pick amongst NBA evaluators, even draft twitter had him as the number 1.

But anyway, I say overrated in reference to the top guys, specifically Sarr, Risacher, Salaun, Klintman. Givony and most mainstream boards have Sarr and Risacher as consensus top 5 guys, Salaun as top 10ish and I just don't buy it at all.

The EV of drafting guys who are role players in international leagues hasn't been there. The only two overseas pro league guys who have been producing at a level I would feel comfortable drafting very high are Topic and Yang.

The difference between these guys and Sengun is their performance in international tournaments and strengths of their leagues compared to the Turkish league. They're also wildly more athletic and can shoot. Besides, most people thought Sengun should have gone higher.

It's been explained ad nauseam but again, these "role players" don't start overseas, not because of lack of talent or because they're not the best players but because they're playing with grown men on teams trying to win with guys that will be with their teams for years. They almost resent these kids using their leagues as stepping stones on their way to the NBA. It makes evaluating them more difficult but that's why we have international tournaments and showcases. It's also why the combine, where they'll finally be on the floor with all the other draft picks and they'll get measured and do drills, is so important.

I'm fortunate enough to have watched a lot of international play last summer. At 18 y/o these guys stood out. Spain and France, where most of these guys played, dominate international play. What happened was instead of being impressed by this fact and these players the "experts" used it to paint a picture that our in-coming freshmen class was atrocious instead. They couldn't just elevate the international kids without being negative about our guys. That's their failure. Then of course everyone who gets their opinions from these guys regurgitated this narrative on here and that's how we ended up where we are.

It shouldn't matter where the top talents come from. The only thing that matters is if there's in fact talent. So what if the international class, for the first time in NBA history, is more talented than the U.S. OADs? It was bound to happen given how Giannis, Luka and Wembanyama have inspired millions in Europe and all of these African academies have sprung up.

I'll remind you, these guys are all still 18 y/o. They've got years to grow and develop. But in each and every instance they have great size, length and athleticism for their positions. All translatable traits. We don't have to worry about these things like we do with guys like Dillingham, Sheppard, Filipowski, McCain, etc. And we don't have to worry about potential upside due to age like with Knecht, McCullar, Edey, Kolek, da Silva, Watkins, etc. It makes perfect sense why evaluators are supposedly higher on the younger prospects that can shoot and that have upside after telling us for months it's a garbage OAD class and one of the weakest draft classes ever lmao

I would think the Turkish league is better than the NBL, just based on who plays in the Turkish league. I live here and follow the NBL closely. For some reason its been drastically overrated by the larger evaluators like Givony and a lot of fans who don't watch the league, but the quality isn't great. Rillie wasn't playing Sarr because he just isn't that good right now. He isn't a better option than Pinder for example, and while I think it's true that the coaches are hesitant to give minutes to guys that have no future with the club, they will still do whats best to win. They won't play young guys who are marginal talent upgrades, but they will play guys who are clear upgrades. Lamelo was the 1st option for the Hawks and by the end of the season was a clear standout. If a player isn't a clear standout in the NBL, you should proceed with caution if you're thinking about drafting a guy top 10. I don't really know how the NBL has built up a strong reputation, but it somehow landed a guy like Ousmane Dieng in the lottery. Also tricked teams into drafting guys like Ferguson, Rupert, Hampton, guys who just straight up are not NBA calibre, Klintman this year too.

Turkish league also is at least on par with the French 1 league, if not better. But yes, most young players in international leagues don't get major roles or major production, thats why when one does, it should be taken seriously and yet it hasn't been.

Topic, unlike Sarr and Risacher was putting up big production in the ABA (a good pro league) at 18yrs old, top 2 in PPG and APG. This is after putting up big numbers in a lower pro Serbian league at 17yrs old. Then add in his play at the EL u18 Next Gen tournament, where he got MVP and basically put the best numbers in the tournaments history. Then add in the fact he's coming off the MVP of the u18 Euro champs while leading Serbia to the title. Then add in that he transferred to Red Star mid season, and walked into a starting spot on a EuroLeague team.

Yang was one of the clear standouts at the u19 worlds and is now putting up crazy numbers in the CBA at 18yrs old.
And speaking of the u19 world's, Risacher was fairly awful and Sarr was meh. Perrin and Ajinca were the best french guys, Almansa was great but he's a weird fit in the NBA and was fairly underwhelming for Ignite this season.
Risacher barely averaged as many 2pt FG + Asts combined as he did turnovers. Basically a pure spot up 3pt shooter, even at that level against his peers.

But yes, I understand why Givony and others are trying to prop up guys like Risacher and Sarr based on loose ideas of potential and upside. Thats because the NCAA guys haven't shown many (if any) tier 1 star prospects, they need to hype up the draft somehow. International players, who most casual fans probably haven't seen outside of highlight and twitter clips, are a good way to keep the hype alive because people don't know how to evaluate them very well.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Yes as King Ken said, I don't usually consider the international guys in the NCAA as part of the 'international' class for a draft from a scouting perspective. Mostly because when they are in the NCAA there is an easier framework to assess and contextualise their performance relative to other prospects. Fair enough if you do though, no problem with that. However, it's this difficulty to contextualise their performances relative to others that I believe is leading them to being overrated, and consistently misdrafted by NBA evaluators.

A guy like Sengun was not considered a lottery pick, despite being MVP of the Turkish league at 18 and putting up insane production but a guy like Risacher is apparently a top 3 lock. Doncic being the EuroLeague MVP at 18/19 yrs, and somehow not being the unanimous 1st pick amongst NBA evaluators, even draft twitter had him as the number 1.

But anyway, I say overrated in reference to the top guys, specifically Sarr, Risacher, Salaun, Klintman. Givony and most mainstream boards have Sarr and Risacher as consensus top 5 guys, Salaun as top 10ish and I just don't buy it at all.

The EV of drafting guys who are role players in international leagues hasn't been there. The only two overseas pro league guys who have been producing at a level I would feel comfortable drafting very high are Topic and Yang.

The difference between these guys and Sengun is their performance in international tournaments and strengths of their leagues compared to the Turkish league. They're also wildly more athletic and can shoot. Besides, most people thought Sengun should have gone higher.

It's been explained ad nauseam but again, these "role players" don't start overseas, not because of lack of talent or because they're not the best players but because they're playing with grown men on teams trying to win with guys that will be with their teams for years. They almost resent these kids using their leagues as stepping stones on their way to the NBA. It makes evaluating them more difficult but that's why we have international tournaments and showcases. It's also why the combine, where they'll finally be on the floor with all the other draft picks and they'll get measured and do drills, is so important.

I'm fortunate enough to have watched a lot of international play last summer. At 18 y/o these guys stood out. Spain and France, where most of these guys played, dominate international play. What happened was instead of being impressed by this fact and these players the "experts" used it to paint a picture that our in-coming freshmen class was atrocious instead. They couldn't just elevate the international kids without being negative about our guys. That's their failure. Then of course everyone who gets their opinions from these guys regurgitated this narrative on here and that's how we ended up where we are.

It shouldn't matter where the top talents come from. The only thing that matters is if there's in fact talent. So what if the international class, for the first time in NBA history, is more talented than the U.S. OADs? It was bound to happen given how Giannis, Luka and Wembanyama have inspired millions in Europe and all of these African academies have sprung up.

I'll remind you, these guys are all still 18 y/o. They've got years to grow and develop. But in each and every instance they have great size, length and athleticism for their positions. All translatable traits. We don't have to worry about these things like we do with guys like Dillingham, Sheppard, Filipowski, McCain, etc. And we don't have to worry about potential upside due to age like with Knecht, McCullar, Edey, Kolek, da Silva, Watkins, etc. It makes perfect sense why evaluators are supposedly higher on the younger prospects that can shoot and that have upside after telling us for months it's a garbage OAD class and one of the weakest draft classes ever lmao

I would think the Turkish league is better than the NBL, just based on who plays in the Turkish league. I live here and follow the NBL closely. For some reason its been drastically overrated by the larger evaluators like Givony and a lot of fans who don't watch the league, but the quality isn't great. Rillie wasn't playing Sarr because he just isn't that good right now. He isn't a better option than Pinder for example, and while I think it's true that the coaches are hesitant to give minutes to guys that have no future with the club, they will still do whats best to win. They won't play young guys who are marginal talent upgrades, but they will play guys who are clear upgrades. Lamelo was the 1st option for the Hawks and by the end of the season was a clear standout. If a player isn't a clear standout in the NBL, you should proceed with caution if you're thinking about drafting a guy top 10. I don't really know how the NBL has built up a strong reputation, but it somehow landed a guy like Ousmane Dieng in the lottery. Also tricked teams into drafting guys like Ferguson, Rupert, Hampton, guys who just straight up are not NBA calibre, Klintman this year too.

Turkish league also is at least on par with the French 1 league, if not better. But yes, most young players in international leagues don't get major roles or major production, thats why when one does, it should be taken seriously and yet it hasn't been.

Topic, unlike Sarr and Risacher was putting up big production in the ABA (a good pro league) at 18yrs old, top 2 in PPG and APG. This is after putting up big numbers in a lower pro Serbian league at 17yrs old. Then add in his play at the EL u18 Next Gen tournament, where he got MVP and basically put the best numbers in the tournaments history. Then add in the fact he's coming off the MVP of the u18 Euro champs while leading Serbia to the title. Then add in that he transferred to Red Star mid season, and walked into a starting spot on a EuroLeague team.

Yang was one of the clear standouts at the u19 worlds and is now putting up crazy numbers in the CBA at 18yrs old.
And speaking of the u19 world's, Risacher was fairly awful and Sarr was meh. Perrin and Ajinca were the best french guys, Almansa was great but he's a weird fit in the NBA and was fairly underwhelming for Ignite this season.
Risacher barely averaged as many 2pt FG + Asts combined as he did turnovers. Basically a pure spot up 3pt shooter, even at that level against his peers.

But yes, I understand why Givony and others are trying to prop up guys like Risacher and Sarr based on loose ideas of potential and upside. Thats because the NCAA guys haven't shown many (if any) tier 1 star prospects, they need to hype up the draft somehow. International players, who most casual fans probably haven't seen outside of highlight and twitter clips, are a good way to keep the hype alive because people don't know how to evaluate them very well.

I'm not going to argue about it but disagree about the Turkish league. There's a reason Spain and France dominate international play. As far as the NBL, it's full of former 4 and 5 star players from NCAA and men that have fully developed games. I'm fairly confident they'd smoke the Turkish league champs but again, it's not worth debating.

Pinder is the perfect example of how guys like Sarr are forced to play backup minutes behind less talented players. Pinder won back to back NBL Most improved player. He's a very good starter. But Sarr is much more talented and better right now. But because Pinder will be there next season and maybe beyond, he's favored and rewarded. It's why you can't really point to minutes or production as a negative when evaluating guys like Sarr. As far as impacting winning, it's not like they're not also still getting production from Sarr. But if winning was the highest priority and they played the most talented player, Sarr would start and play 35 mpg.

LaMelo played for an awful team and he was brought over to increase NBL exposure and attention paid to the league. He was a high profile kid starring in a reality TV show. And unlike Sarr, there was nobody competent ahead of him to prevent him getting minutes. It was a completely different situation for a variety of reasons. While the NBL wants and needs these high profile OAD type talents to go there it doesn't mean they will start them over vets and do what is best for their NBA draft stock. And there's certainly resentment from players and coaches which absolutely impacts their production whether they get minutes or not.

Risacher and Sarr at the U19 had both just turned 18 y/o. Risacher was barely getting any touches and he was like 6th in minutes played for the France team. He got 1 FGA his first game! He struggled shooting in one game but filled the stat sheet with rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. He wasn't "awful" and Sarr was very impactful on the defensive end, flashed quite a bit and was one of the main reasons they won the tournament so was not anywhere near "meh". This is just hyperbole. The reason Perrin and Almansa looked so good is because they both have really good size and BBIQ and hustle. Nobody even talks about Perrin, he's basically absent from most mock drafts but he shouldn't be as he's easily a first round talent so there's no overrating there. And Almansa is also an afterthought not found in first rounds since he's a tweener and didn't light the world on fire with Ignite. Sarr and Risacher have both grown physically, mentally and their confidence is much higher.

These insiders aren't "propping up" the draft lmao. They're incessantly **** on it like everyone in here does. What are you even talking about? They're high on these international prospects because they've all shown out against their peers in international play. They all have translatable NBA size, length and athleticism and have actual skill. It has nothing to do with the supposed lack of OAD freshmen talent that they're ranked high. They're ranked high because they're very good prospects and would be high lottery picks in the first half of lotteries in almost every draft in history. I don't know why people love downplaying how gifted these guys are.

Alas, I don't blame so many for thinking this class is weak like I used to. It really does require more effort and really good evaluation skills. More than usual anyway because most of the really good talent is inhibited due to where they play or for what team and what role they play. Most evaluators rely primarily on stats and that's just not going to paint an accurate picture for this class. Unlike in past years, where you'd watch the supposed top OAD guys being showcased, guys are choosing the same schools (Kentucky, Duke), guys are choosing to join veteran teams or that have Championship aspirations (Castle, George, McCain, Furphy, Foster, Stojakovic) which limit their minutes and touches, guys have dealt with injuries (Williams), guys play with Ignite (Holland, Buzelis, Smith), guys play overseas (Flowers) or guys play out of position (Mgbako). So we are getting very few OAD kids that are in ideal situations to improve their draft stock.

The only OAD talent I felt that approached this season with the intention to maximize his draft stock and was also in an ideal situation were Carlton Carrington and Jared McCain. And lo and behold, despite the "experts" not buying into it them yet, both have proven to be lottery talents.

Carrington has an incredible ability to take guys off the dribble, create separation to get his shot off, can score on all three levels, can pass and can defend at a high level. The only thing he didn't show me was above the basket athleticism but that might just be due to opportunity and consistency with his release and footwork on his outside shot. At nearly 6'6" he's one of the few potential high-level starters I can see in this draft. And the "experts" think he should return!!! Carrington deserves as much draft hype as Black did last season and Black went #6 in a supposedly much better draft.

McCain proved to be arguably the best off-ball player in the draft not named Knecht but unlike Knecht he has on-ball lead guard, albeit unlikely, or secondary ball-handling potential. He's the same level of prospect as Suggs. But again, nobody seems to gaf. Suggs went #5 in a supposedly much better draft.

Either I'm proven to be a complete fraudulent blowhard and lose face or all these experts and everyone on here are. Something has to give

[sisibilio]

Just passing by.
Turkish league isn't as competitive as it was some years ago but still way stronger than the french.

[Upperclass]

Sheppard doesn't have the athleticism or handle to play a meaningful role in the league. Rob is too small, needs the ball and can't pass or defend. Unless he turns into IT.. he isnt an NBA player at all. This has been obvious all year

[JMAC3]

The difference between these guys and Sengun is their performance in international tournaments and strengths of their leagues compared to the Turkish league. They're also wildly more athletic and can shoot. Besides, most people thought Sengun should have gone higher.

It's been explained ad nauseam but again, these "role players" don't start overseas, not because of lack of talent or because they're not the best players but because they're playing with grown men on teams trying to win with guys that will be with their teams for years. They almost resent these kids using their leagues as stepping stones on their way to the NBA. It makes evaluating them more difficult but that's why we have international tournaments and showcases. It's also why the combine, where they'll finally be on the floor with all the other draft picks and they'll get measured and do drills, is so important.

I'm fortunate enough to have watched a lot of international play last summer. At 18 y/o these guys stood out. Spain and France, where most of these guys played, dominate international play. What happened was instead of being impressed by this fact and these players the "experts" used it to paint a picture that our in-coming freshmen class was atrocious instead. They couldn't just elevate the international kids without being negative about our guys. That's their failure. Then of course everyone who gets their opinions from these guys regurgitated this narrative on here and that's how we ended up where we are.

It shouldn't matter where the top talents come from. The only thing that matters is if there's in fact talent. So what if the international class, for the first time in NBA history, is more talented than the U.S. OADs? It was bound to happen given how Giannis, Luka and Wembanyama have inspired millions in Europe and all of these African academies have sprung up.

I'll remind you, these guys are all still 18 y/o. They've got years to grow and develop. But in each and every instance they have great size, length and athleticism for their positions. All translatable traits. We don't have to worry about these things like we do with guys like Dillingham, Sheppard, Filipowski, McCain, etc. And we don't have to worry about potential upside due to age like with Knecht, McCullar, Edey, Kolek, da Silva, Watkins, etc. It makes perfect sense why evaluators are supposedly higher on the younger prospects that can shoot and that have upside after telling us for months it's a garbage OAD class and one of the weakest draft classes ever lmao

I would think the Turkish league is better than the NBL, just based on who plays in the Turkish league. I live here and follow the NBL closely. For some reason its been drastically overrated by the larger evaluators like Givony and a lot of fans who don't watch the league, but the quality isn't great. Rillie wasn't playing Sarr because he just isn't that good right now. He isn't a better option than Pinder for example, and while I think it's true that the coaches are hesitant to give minutes to guys that have no future with the club, they will still do whats best to win. They won't play young guys who are marginal talent upgrades, but they will play guys who are clear upgrades. Lamelo was the 1st option for the Hawks and by the end of the season was a clear standout. If a player isn't a clear standout in the NBL, you should proceed with caution if you're thinking about drafting a guy top 10. I don't really know how the NBL has built up a strong reputation, but it somehow landed a guy like Ousmane Dieng in the lottery. Also tricked teams into drafting guys like Ferguson, Rupert, Hampton, guys who just straight up are not NBA calibre, Klintman this year too.

Turkish league also is at least on par with the French 1 league, if not better. But yes, most young players in international leagues don't get major roles or major production, thats why when one does, it should be taken seriously and yet it hasn't been.

Topic, unlike Sarr and Risacher was putting up big production in the ABA (a good pro league) at 18yrs old, top 2 in PPG and APG. This is after putting up big numbers in a lower pro Serbian league at 17yrs old. Then add in his play at the EL u18 Next Gen tournament, where he got MVP and basically put the best numbers in the tournaments history. Then add in the fact he's coming off the MVP of the u18 Euro champs while leading Serbia to the title. Then add in that he transferred to Red Star mid season, and walked into a starting spot on a EuroLeague team.

Yang was one of the clear standouts at the u19 worlds and is now putting up crazy numbers in the CBA at 18yrs old.
And speaking of the u19 world's, Risacher was fairly awful and Sarr was meh. Perrin and Ajinca were the best french guys, Almansa was great but he's a weird fit in the NBA and was fairly underwhelming for Ignite this season.
Risacher barely averaged as many 2pt FG + Asts combined as he did turnovers. Basically a pure spot up 3pt shooter, even at that level against his peers.

But yes, I understand why Givony and others are trying to prop up guys like Risacher and Sarr based on loose ideas of potential and upside. Thats because the NCAA guys haven't shown many (if any) tier 1 star prospects, they need to hype up the draft somehow. International players, who most casual fans probably haven't seen outside of highlight and twitter clips, are a good way to keep the hype alive because people don't know how to evaluate them very well.

I'm not going to argue about it but disagree about the Turkish league. There's a reason Spain and France dominate international play. As far as the NBL, it's full of former 4 and 5 star players from NCAA and men that have fully developed games. I'm fairly confident they'd smoke the Turkish league champs but again, it's not worth debating.

Pinder is the perfect example of how guys like Sarr are forced to play backup minutes behind less talented players. Pinder won back to back NBL Most improved player. He's a very good starter. But Sarr is much more talented and better right now. But because Pinder will be there next season and maybe beyond, he's favored and rewarded. It's why you can't really point to minutes or production as a negative when evaluating guys like Sarr. As far as impacting winning, it's not like they're not also still getting production from Sarr. But if winning was the highest priority and they played the most talented player, Sarr would start and play 35 mpg.

LaMelo played for an awful team and he was brought over to increase NBL exposure and attention paid to the league. He was a high profile kid starring in a reality TV show. And unlike Sarr, there was nobody competent ahead of him to prevent him getting minutes. It was a completely different situation for a variety of reasons. While the NBL wants and needs these high profile OAD type talents to go there it doesn't mean they will start them over vets and do what is best for their NBA draft stock. And there's certainly resentment from players and coaches which absolutely impacts their production whether they get minutes or not.

Risacher and Sarr at the U19 had both just turned 18 y/o. Risacher was barely getting any touches and he was like 6th in minutes played for the France team. He got 1 FGA his first game! He struggled shooting in one game but filled the stat sheet with rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. He wasn't "awful" and Sarr was very impactful on the defensive end, flashed quite a bit and was one of the main reasons they won the tournament so was not anywhere near "meh". This is just hyperbole. The reason Perrin and Almansa looked so good is because they both have really good size and BBIQ and hustle. Nobody even talks about Perrin, he's basically absent from most mock drafts but he shouldn't be as he's easily a first round talent so there's no overrating there. And Almansa is also an afterthought not found in first rounds since he's a tweener and didn't light the world on fire with Ignite. Sarr and Risacher have both grown physically, mentally and their confidence is much higher.

These insiders aren't "propping up" the draft lmao. They're incessantly **** on it like everyone in here does. What are you even talking about? They're high on these international prospects because they've all shown out against their peers in international play. They all have translatable NBA size, length and athleticism and have actual skill. It has nothing to do with the supposed lack of OAD freshmen talent that they're ranked high. They're ranked high because they're very good prospects and would be high lottery picks in the first half of lotteries in almost every draft in history. I don't know why people love downplaying how gifted these guys are.

Alas, I don't blame so many for thinking this class is weak like I used to. It really does require more effort and really good evaluation skills. More than usual anyway because most of the really good talent is inhibited due to where they play or for what team and what role they play. Most evaluators rely primarily on stats and that's just not going to paint an accurate picture for this class. Unlike in past years, where you'd watch the supposed top OAD guys being showcased, guys are choosing the same schools (Kentucky, Duke), guys are choosing to join veteran teams or that have Championship aspirations (Castle, George, McCain, Furphy, Foster, Stojakovic) which limit their minutes and touches, guys have dealt with injuries (Williams), guys play with Ignite (Holland, Buzelis, Smith), guys play overseas (Flowers) or guys play out of position (Mgbako). So we are getting very few OAD kids that are in ideal situations to improve their draft stock.

The only OAD talent I felt that approached this season with the intention to maximize his draft stock and was also in an ideal situation were Carlton Carrington and Jared McCain. And lo and behold, despite the "experts" not buying into it them yet, both have proven to be lottery talents.

Carrington has an incredible ability to take guys off the dribble, create separation to get his shot off, can score on all three levels, can pass and can defend at a high level. The only thing he didn't show me was above the basket athleticism but that might just be due to opportunity and consistency with his release and footwork on his outside shot. At nearly 6'6" he's one of the few potential high-level starters I can see in this draft. And the "experts" think he should return!!! Carrington deserves as much draft hype as Black did last season and Black went #6 in a supposedly much better draft.

McCain proved to be arguably the best off-ball player in the draft not named Knecht but unlike Knecht he has on-ball lead guard, albeit unlikely, or secondary ball-handling potential. He's the same level of prospect as Suggs. But again, nobody seems to gaf. Suggs went #5 in a supposedly much better draft.

Either I'm proven to be a complete fraudulent blowhard and lose face or all these experts and everyone on here are. Something has to give

Probably makes more sense to move this convo to the Sarr, Risascher or Topic thread. I do think it is insightful though.

[bananazn]

Just passing by.
Turkish league isn't as competitive as it was some years ago but still way stronger than the french.

Imo Turkish league is more top heavy but french league is overall stronger and it shows with european leagues results this year they are at the top in eurocup champions league and there's obviously Monaco a top 3 euroleague

[G R E Y]

The difference between these guys and Sengun is their performance in international tournaments and strengths of their leagues compared to the Turkish league. They're also wildly more athletic and can shoot. Besides, most people thought Sengun should have gone higher.

It's been explained ad nauseam but again, these "role players" don't start overseas, not because of lack of talent or because they're not the best players but because they're playing with grown men on teams trying to win with guys that will be with their teams for years. They almost resent these kids using their leagues as stepping stones on their way to the NBA. It makes evaluating them more difficult but that's why we have international tournaments and showcases. It's also why the combine, where they'll finally be on the floor with all the other draft picks and they'll get measured and do drills, is so important.

I'm fortunate enough to have watched a lot of international play last summer. At 18 y/o these guys stood out. Spain and France, where most of these guys played, dominate international play. What happened was instead of being impressed by this fact and these players the "experts" used it to paint a picture that our in-coming freshmen class was atrocious instead. They couldn't just elevate the international kids without being negative about our guys. That's their failure. Then of course everyone who gets their opinions from these guys regurgitated this narrative on here and that's how we ended up where we are.

It shouldn't matter where the top talents come from. The only thing that matters is if there's in fact talent. So what if the international class, for the first time in NBA history, is more talented than the U.S. OADs? It was bound to happen given how Giannis, Luka and Wembanyama have inspired millions in Europe and all of these African academies have sprung up.

I'll remind you, these guys are all still 18 y/o. They've got years to grow and develop. But in each and every instance they have great size, length and athleticism for their positions. All translatable traits. We don't have to worry about these things like we do with guys like Dillingham, Sheppard, Filipowski, McCain, etc. And we don't have to worry about potential upside due to age like with Knecht, McCullar, Edey, Kolek, da Silva, Watkins, etc. It makes perfect sense why evaluators are supposedly higher on the younger prospects that can shoot and that have upside after telling us for months it's a garbage OAD class and one of the weakest draft classes ever lmao

I would think the Turkish league is better than the NBL, just based on who plays in the Turkish league. I live here and follow the NBL closely. For some reason its been drastically overrated by the larger evaluators like Givony and a lot of fans who don't watch the league, but the quality isn't great. Rillie wasn't playing Sarr because he just isn't that good right now. He isn't a better option than Pinder for example, and while I think it's true that the coaches are hesitant to give minutes to guys that have no future with the club, they will still do whats best to win. They won't play young guys who are marginal talent upgrades, but they will play guys who are clear upgrades. Lamelo was the 1st option for the Hawks and by the end of the season was a clear standout. If a player isn't a clear standout in the NBL, you should proceed with caution if you're thinking about drafting a guy top 10. I don't really know how the NBL has built up a strong reputation, but it somehow landed a guy like Ousmane Dieng in the lottery. Also tricked teams into drafting guys like Ferguson, Rupert, Hampton, guys who just straight up are not NBA calibre, Klintman this year too.

Turkish league also is at least on par with the French 1 league, if not better. But yes, most young players in international leagues don't get major roles or major production, thats why when one does, it should be taken seriously and yet it hasn't been.

Topic, unlike Sarr and Risacher was putting up big production in the ABA (a good pro league) at 18yrs old, top 2 in PPG and APG. This is after putting up big numbers in a lower pro Serbian league at 17yrs old. Then add in his play at the EL u18 Next Gen tournament, where he got MVP and basically put the best numbers in the tournaments history. Then add in the fact he's coming off the MVP of the u18 Euro champs while leading Serbia to the title. Then add in that he transferred to Red Star mid season, and walked into a starting spot on a EuroLeague team.

Yang was one of the clear standouts at the u19 worlds and is now putting up crazy numbers in the CBA at 18yrs old.
And speaking of the u19 world's, Risacher was fairly awful and Sarr was meh. Perrin and Ajinca were the best french guys, Almansa was great but he's a weird fit in the NBA and was fairly underwhelming for Ignite this season.
Risacher barely averaged as many 2pt FG + Asts combined as he did turnovers. Basically a pure spot up 3pt shooter, even at that level against his peers.

But yes, I understand why Givony and others are trying to prop up guys like Risacher and Sarr based on loose ideas of potential and upside. Thats because the NCAA guys haven't shown many (if any) tier 1 star prospects, they need to hype up the draft somehow. International players, who most casual fans probably haven't seen outside of highlight and twitter clips, are a good way to keep the hype alive because people don't know how to evaluate them very well.

I'm not going to argue about it but disagree about the Turkish league. There's a reason Spain and France dominate international play. As far as the NBL, it's full of former 4 and 5 star players from NCAA and men that have fully developed games. I'm fairly confident they'd smoke the Turkish league champs but again, it's not worth debating.

Pinder is the perfect example of how guys like Sarr are forced to play backup minutes behind less talented players. Pinder won back to back NBL Most improved player. He's a very good starter. But Sarr is much more talented and better right now. But because Pinder will be there next season and maybe beyond, he's favored and rewarded. It's why you can't really point to minutes or production as a negative when evaluating guys like Sarr. As far as impacting winning, it's not like they're not also still getting production from Sarr. But if winning was the highest priority and they played the most talented player, Sarr would start and play 35 mpg.

LaMelo played for an awful team and he was brought over to increase NBL exposure and attention paid to the league. He was a high profile kid starring in a reality TV show. And unlike Sarr, there was nobody competent ahead of him to prevent him getting minutes. It was a completely different situation for a variety of reasons. While the NBL wants and needs these high profile OAD type talents to go there it doesn't mean they will start them over vets and do what is best for their NBA draft stock. And there's certainly resentment from players and coaches which absolutely impacts their production whether they get minutes or not.

Risacher and Sarr at the U19 had both just turned 18 y/o. Risacher was barely getting any touches and he was like 6th in minutes played for the France team. He got 1 FGA his first game! He struggled shooting in one game but filled the stat sheet with rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. He wasn't "awful" and Sarr was very impactful on the defensive end, flashed quite a bit and was one of the main reasons they won the tournament so was not anywhere near "meh". This is just hyperbole. The reason Perrin and Almansa looked so good is because they both have really good size and BBIQ and hustle. Nobody even talks about Perrin, he's basically absent from most mock drafts but he shouldn't be as he's easily a first round talent so there's no overrating there. And Almansa is also an afterthought not found in first rounds since he's a tweener and didn't light the world on fire with Ignite. Sarr and Risacher have both grown physically, mentally and their confidence is much higher.

These insiders aren't "propping up" the draft lmao. They're incessantly **** on it like everyone in here does. What are you even talking about? They're high on these international prospects because they've all shown out against their peers in international play. They all have translatable NBA size, length and athleticism and have actual skill. It has nothing to do with the supposed lack of OAD freshmen talent that they're ranked high. They're ranked high because they're very good prospects and would be high lottery picks in the first half of lotteries in almost every draft in history. I don't know why people love downplaying how gifted these guys are.

Alas, I don't blame so many for thinking this class is weak like I used to. It really does require more effort and really good evaluation skills. More than usual anyway because most of the really good talent is inhibited due to where they play or for what team and what role they play. Most evaluators rely primarily on stats and that's just not going to paint an accurate picture for this class. Unlike in past years, where you'd watch the supposed top OAD guys being showcased, guys are choosing the same schools (Kentucky, Duke), guys are choosing to join veteran teams or that have Championship aspirations (Castle, George, McCain, Furphy, Foster, Stojakovic) which limit their minutes and touches, guys have dealt with injuries (Williams), guys play with Ignite (Holland, Buzelis, Smith), guys play overseas (Flowers) or guys play out of position (Mgbako). So we are getting very few OAD kids that are in ideal situations to improve their draft stock.

The only OAD talent I felt that approached this season with the intention to maximize his draft stock and was also in an ideal situation were Carlton Carrington and Jared McCain. And lo and behold, despite the "experts" not buying into it them yet, both have proven to be lottery talents.

Carrington has an incredible ability to take guys off the dribble, create separation to get his shot off, can score on all three levels, can pass and can defend at a high level. The only thing he didn't show me was above the basket athleticism but that might just be due to opportunity and consistency with his release and footwork on his outside shot. At nearly 6'6" he's one of the few potential high-level starters I can see in this draft. And the "experts" think he should return!!! Carrington deserves as much draft hype as Black did last season and Black went #6 in a supposedly much better draft.

McCain proved to be arguably the best off-ball player in the draft not named Knecht but unlike Knecht he has on-ball lead guard, albeit unlikely, or secondary ball-handling potential. He's the same level of prospect as Suggs. But again, nobody seems to gaf. Suggs went #5 in a supposedly much better draft.

Either I'm proven to be a complete fraudulent blowhard and lose face or all these experts and everyone on here are. Something has to give

Thanks to you both. This has been a really informative exchange of info and insight and contexts.

Who would you say are your top 3-5 international prospects, non-NCAA, regardless of position (or if you prefer position context, sure).

Agree with OP above about this overlapping with international prospects, but then again they're all in this draft...