Shaq to Phoenix

[Magz50]

Happily expecting for all of you to eat your words come May


So who is Timmy guarding? Amare? Because we all know what happened 3 years ago.

3 years ago?? damn dude living in the past, don't forget TD was playing on two bum ankles that series. How about we fast forward to the last few times Amare has played Duncan when Duncan absolutely destroyed Amare downlow. That makes alot more sense.


Phoenix VS Spurs 12/17/2007

Amare - 17 p 6 rebs 1as 3 blks - 5 fouls
Duncan - 36 p 17rebs3as 4 blk - 1 foul

Spurs vs Phoenix 31/1/08

Amare - 16p 9rbs 1as 2blk - 5 fouls
Duncan - 16p 17 rebs 7as 2blks - 5 fouls

[HarlemHeat37]

that's meaningless anyways..

Amare from 3 years ago isn't Amare now..not even close..

[Ballings7]

Amare going wild was part of the plan... and I think we'll be able to handle Shaq like he's going to be. So, Amare will probably go off again, just as part of the strategy again, in a series loss.

The other factor is the Spurs can contain Steve Nash over a playoff series. Bruce Bowen individually, + team defense. Marion going is one less athlete, shooter, rebounder, finisher to be aware of. As well as defensively, only easier on Tony Parker. Despite over-time Shawn not playing well against the Spurs, he still did have a few games where he did good.

Another factor is the Suns still don't have enough rebounding and depth.

The defensive mind-set, energy expense, and a few more players, is still going to be lacking, too. The Suns are still going to be a running team (just not quite as much as before with Shaq when playing half-court), and an offensive-minded team. Still relying on jumpshots and easy baskets to play well.

If Shaq somehow becomes a serious scoring force again, then things change. But that's not favorable with the situation (health, minutes, shot amount, possible motivation issues (later), total role).

The perimeter defense will better to a degree, because of Shaq being back at the rim. But even so, the Suns group of perimeter defenders still aren't that good, and Shaq is a limited, sporadic defender now. Putting increased defensive responsibility on Grant Hill, while Grant's a better than ordinary defender and smart, what will be there now is quite a bit to ask. Along with what else he has to do, be pretty amazing if he can do it all sufficiently. Maybe, but I don't know.

Shaq/Amare is not a solid defensive PF/C duo, with how they are as defenders (Shaq can clog the lane, but there's more to defense than that) and neither are strong rebounders. At times they will have good rebounding games, but not as a constant or regularity.

The Suns don't have a significant rebounder anymore, where somebody is top-level in ability and ranked well. Skinner if he played starters minutes would be the Suns best rebounder (as shown with the Kings in 2005 for 2 months), and is generally, but he doesn't and won't play enough.

[Donald Kaufman]

^ very well said.

This trade makes me even more confident that we will beat them now. I had very little doubt before, now I have absolutely no doubt. This move does not improve them, in fact it will take many years for them to recover. The trade reeks of desperation and panic on their part, as they know their window is closing/closed.

So, as a Spurs fan, I say it was a great trade. But if I'm a Suns fan, this is possibly the worst trade of all time.

[rsavaj]

Happily expecting for all of you to eat your words come May


So who is Timmy guarding? Amare? Because we all know what happened 3 years ago.

....you do remember the whole "microfracture surgery" thing, right?

[Macker]

The way he's been playing in Miami, Shaq is a serious liability on the pick and roll. Since TD and TP do that to perfection, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the way you guys can minimize Shaq's role. Make him play Oberto instead. Will have to be purely pick and pop, because Shaq can still defend the rim, but Tim's got a nice J. Take this approach, and Shaq's influence will be minimized.

[Ballings7]

Yeah, and Shaq's man is going to score consistently either way.

Oberto moves without the ball solidly for easy baskets, is a good passer, has an adequate mid-range j, and offensive rebounds.

Then you have Robert Horry.

[-SDU-]

3 years ago?? damn dude living in the past, don't forget TD was playing on two bum ankles that series. How about we fast forward to the last few times Amare has played Duncan when Duncan absolutely destroyed Amare downlow. That makes alot more sense.

thats like me saying "the last 2 times, damn dude living in the past, dont forget amare was playing with no C next to him and got in early foul trouble which hindered his ability to play his natural game"

the last few times though, amare has been a C and i can tell you from the point of view of someone who has watched every suns game for the last 5 years, his defense was terrible, not because he cant defend, but because he has been trying to avoid foul trouble, so he plays too soft. WIth a C next to him taking the other teams star big, amare can go back to being a weak side defender who can avoid early fouls easier enabling him to stay in the game more. and be more aggressive on both ends

the last 2 times we played that you mentioned, amare had 2 fouls in the first quarter each time, forcing him to play less minutes and play less aggressively on both ends of the floor. You guys do the right thing and put oberto on amare for major minutes, protecting duncan to defend amare in clutch times etc, thats what we need to start doing before you can really compare the 2 in a matchup

in the 2 games combined, duncan played 15 more minutes than amare and took 41 field goal attempts to amares 19.

so its easy to say duncan killed amare, but looking at the FGA's its clearer to say you guys went to duncan for your shots and we didnt go to amare, we went to other guys, amare only took 19 shots, thats like saying nash destroyed udoka, if you werent going to udoka vs nash, how is it relevant?

the suns system now though is changing, its clearly being build around amare, putting him back at PF, keeping him from foul trouble and giving him the majority of FGA's in our system

he has had more than 18 FGA's in both games since the trade, thats only the second time thats happened all season and if it continues, then the next time amare plays duncan it will give us a better guage as to where they are at.

that's meaningless anyways..

Amare from 3 years ago isn't Amare now..not even close..

yeah youre right, he wasnt all NBA first team back then was he? amare now is better than amare before. no he isnt as athletic, but amare back then had no post game, no shot blocking and no jump shot. also he could never draw contact or finish with contact unless it was a dunk

amare is far more rounded than he has ever been in his career. his jumpshot is absolute money now

Amare going wild was part of the plan... and I think we'll be able to handle Shaq like he's going to be. So, Amare will probably go off again, just as part of the strategy again, in a series loss.

alots changed though since then, if amare goes wild like last time (which im not predicting or anything) then you may be in trouble, because this team is far better equipped to handle the other things you guys do well than it was the last time when amare went nuts

ie last time we had nash JJ with a fractured face, q rich, second year barbosa and steven hunter and couldnt run any half court plays other than pick and roll

now we have bell to try and counter manu, diaw, shaq hopefully between him and amare, they attack who duncan has and trys to get fouls on him, barbosa is much better now (though i understand why you may not think so because he sucked in the series last year), grant hill, and can play run and gun, slow down, big, small etc

we were a 1 trick pony back then and over a 7 game series you can stop that.

This trade makes me even more confident that we will beat them now. I had very little doubt before, now I have absolutely no doubt. This move does not improve them, in fact it will take many years for them to recover. The trade reeks of desperation and panic on their part, as they know their window is closing/closed.

the window IS closing, and it IS a desperation move, but its an all or nothing gamble and i appreciate the balls it must have taken to make that decision. if it fails, it will be a spectacular failure and people will be calling for kerrs head, BUT if it works, it will definately put us right at the top of the contenders list

time is the only way to tell on that

[Blame Rasho]

long ass rant

I will give you some props... that was a very high quality post.

[-SDU-]

^ LMAO, nice quoting of me

i figured i would address the 3-4 posts in this thread all at once rather than 4 seperate posts.... dont want to pad my stats and all

[Donald Kaufman]

the window IS closing, and it IS a desperation move, but its an all or nothing gamble and i appreciate the balls it must have taken to make that decision. if it fails, it will be a spectacular failure and people will be calling for kerrs head, BUT if it works, it will definately put us right at the top of the contenders list

time is the only way to tell on that

I agree that it was a gutsy move, no doubt about it. Kerr's neck is on the line, and it really is a make or break move on his part.

I think the true value of this trade will depend on what Phx are able to do in the playoffs. If you get knocked out in the conference semi's or WCF's, it will be written off as a bad trade. If you win the chip, Kerr looks like a basketball Einstein.

[Ballings7]

I didn't just mean the 2005 series, I meant both series. And yeah, I'm not that worried about Barbosa. He had a hurting elbow last year supposedly, but also the Spurs defense, and Barbosa's limited finishing ability on lay-ups played a part to his struggles.

What still stands is the Suns have to shoot, run, and get easy baskets to play well and win games. As unless everybody is proven wrong, Shaq's not near the interior scorer he once was. He's still effective on both ends to a degree when healthy (includes playing hurt), but he's just not the same player he once was, as a whole. His game has narrowed, his mobility has lessened, and he's going to be the third offensive option.

Of course, Steve Nash is the catalyst for the Suns, and, he can and probably will be contained again by the Spurs, if there is another series.

Diaw's not a significant player until he plays consistently well. He hasn't done that since 05-06. Really no reason he's going to play consistent, either, he just has to do it. Diaw's also still had the struggles with Marion gone from what I've seen/read, and with Shaq coming in I don't think that helps in the way of Diaw's rhythm and aggressiveness. Maybe Shaq talking to him, combined with coaching will improve his play *shrug*.

Grant Hill will definitely help from last year, but his responsibility just went up a quite a bit with Marion gone. Especially defensively and his minutes. His health has been pretty solid so far, but, what can't be denied is the more than ordinary situation with him.

now we have bell to try and counter manu

You had him last year, too. Bell gave Manu some problems last year, but Manu ultimately still was a significant factor on the series.

and no jump shot

Short memory? Amare definitely had a good jumpshot back in 04-05. He's just expanded it since then. It wasn't insiginificant at all in 04-05.

Attempts: 52 percent; eFG%: .426 percent; ast'd: 49 percent; Pts: 7.4

http://www.82games.com/04PHO14A.HTM

It was displayed very well in the 05 playoffs.

[UDRIH14]

instead of calling for kerrs head if suns fail

how about a coach replacement?

[-SDU-]

^certain suns fans would be all for that, larry brown?

me personally, no, i say stick with dantoni

@ballings7, i would reply to your post, but i gotta go to bed ill get to it tomorrow, i agree with most of what you said, but do have some other thoughts on it all tho

[Black Jesus 1]

^ Last season Miami had shooters (Posey, Kapono, Williams, Walker, Jones, Haslem) but Shaq was hurt too much for it to be a consistent thing. Also has been hurt more since then.

Those shooters sucked last year, 34% from 3.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bytea ... 6&sort=230

[Ballings7]

-= original quote snipped =-


Those shooters sucked last year, 34% from 3.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bytea ... 6&sort=230

It's not that simple.

As that's on the season for the whole team, not just those shooters that I mentioned specifically. Those shooters were a key part of Miami's 2nd half run, which is around when Shaq came back (then soon after Wade went out for a little while, before coming back). That group of shooters as a whole shot well from 3P, along with Haslem's mid-range jumpshots.

Eddie Jones also wasn't there for the whole season. He came in the 2nd half, being waived by Memphis earlier in the season.

Jones shot 38 percent

Kapono shot 51 percent (also is a good mid-range shooter, and shot 59 eFG% on jumpshots. http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA9D.HTM )

Posey shot 37 percent

Williams shot 34 percent (which isn't bad, and shot almost 49 percent eFG% on jumpshots, as if you've watched him over the years (at least the last two seasons), he is a better mid-range shooter than three point shooter. http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA2A.HTM )

Walker shot 27 percent, but that's because he shoots so many, and is more of a key situational, streak shooter than a consistent shooter. He's streaky, takes too many threes, but from what I remember was pretty good in key/late situations. Making 84 threes, but attempting 305. Also, while Miami did get swept, Walker made 8-16 3P for 50 percent in the playoffs.

Everybody else wasn't as good there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2007.html

Haslem shot 40 percent on jumpshots for att.% of 62, ast% of 88, and for 4.5 of his pts.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA10A.HTM