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Post#121 » by Ex-hippie » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:43 am

FARMERMAN10 wrote:So exhippies a Vonnegut fan. I guess I was right. what all have you read of his?


God Bless You Mr. Rosewater, Cat's Cradle, Slaughterhouse-Five, Breakfast of Champions, Wampeters, Foma and Granfaloons, Bluebeard, Mother Night... that might be it. All of that was back when I was a young whippersnapper like you. How 'bout you?
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Post#122 » by FARMERMAN10 » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:11 am

I actually only read Slaughterhouse-Five a few months ago. I loved it, and couldn't wait to read more, but got sidetracked by a few other books I'd been meaning to read.

I'm finishing up The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable by Nassim Taleb, but after that I think I'm gonna get back into Vonnegut. Any recommendations for the next one to read? I was thinking Mother Night.

Also has anyone else read The Black Swan? I have mixed feelings about it, and for some reason your average high school basketball player isn't really interested in discussing narrative fallacies with me.
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Post#123 » by Ex-hippie » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:22 pm

Since "Lost" came up earlier in this thread, anyone care to comment on the obvious Slaughterhouse Five reference from the episode where Desmond was "unstuck in time"?
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Post#124 » by Ex-hippie » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:54 pm

....And last night's "Lost" contained another allusion to a postwar counterculture literary classic, when Ben checked into a hotel under the name Dean Moriarty. Anyone catch that?
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Post#125 » by BenjaminH » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:24 pm

I think that "Lost" allusions are sort of annoying because they are usually made so explicitly (e.g. Locke, Rousseau, Hume) with such little substance. Allusions, I think, mostly contribute to the richness of a text. (E.g. a certain character makes an allusion and you might think 'she must be educated' or 'I read that too, so, those were the kinds of things she was thinking about when she made such and such a decision'.)

To me, it seems like "Lost" writers just enjoy making explicit references to books they enjoy, but the reference contributes very little to the plot. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that and it can be fun to point them out ... but the allusions feel kind of empty and it is not very rewarding to track them.

I should make a disclaimer that I was into season one of "Lost", but then kind of lost interest and grew too busy. I still really enjoy the occasional episode - last night's was great. But, some of the richness of the plot may be lost on me. So, I could be wrong if others find tracking the allusions to be valuable.
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Post#126 » by Ex-hippie » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:29 pm

I didn't think of the Locke/Rousseau/Hume thing as trying to be any kind of literary or philosophical allusion, so much as just a "thing that makes you go hmm." Just injecting some weird coincidences into the story line, akin to the way the some of the characters had encountered each other off the island in the flashbacks, or the way Hurley's lottery numbers kept popping up in the first couple of seasons. Locke and Hume are not improbable surnames in any case (Rousseau, on the other hand...).

Don't forget there's a Burke as well (a character I think should die, like now).
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Post#127 » by BenjaminH » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:05 pm

You're probably right, and I am probably not keen enough to notice many of the subtler allusions. But even allusions like Steinbeck's *Of Mice and Men* and Jame's *The Turn of the Screw* added very little, I thought. Perhaps a lot of the richness is just lost on me.
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Post#128 » by Ex-hippie » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm

Well if it's over your head, it's probably over the heads of 99% of the audience.

That said: what Of Mice and Men and Turn of the Screw references?
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Post#129 » by BenjaminH » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:28 pm

I think Sawyer and Ben had a conversation about *Of Mice and Men*? As for *Turn of the Screw*, I think, that was one of Desmond's or Ben's books and it was important, maybe, because something was hidden behind it. In general, I think the writers just enjoy littering the show with "shout outs" to lots of different books they enjoy.
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Post#130 » by Troy McClure » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:13 pm

I enjoyed lost last night. Very much so. Too bad about Ben's daughter I thought she was kind of cute. I also thought her mom was hot so who am i to judge, right?
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Post#131 » by BenjaminH » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:33 pm

Ex-hippie wrote:Don't forget there's a Burke as well (a character I think should die, like now).


I didn't realize that there was a character named Burke. He was probably in a string of episodes that I did not see. But are you putting the allusion in the same category as the Early Modern (social contract) philosophers?

I never thought that Edmund Burke was much of a philosopher and I don't mean that derisively. The only place where he really engages critically with other philosophers is in his works on aesthetics, particularly beauty and sublimity. Here he is in direct dialogue with Lyotard, Kant and perhaps Hume. Indeed, his view on sublimity is one of the big ones in aesthetics. (I'm with Kant here, though, because his view on sublimity is the least limited.)

Yet, Burke is hardly a contractarian like Rousseau, Hobbes or Locke (or even the Late Moderns / German Idealists like Kant and Fichte). You are probably talking about his Reflections on the Revolution in France. (I really enjoyed that, it is one of the best pieces of political conservativism ever.) But that is hardly a work of philosophy, much less a social contract theory. As far as I can tell, it does not put forth a theory at all. (He obviously holds a sort of conservativism, but really just in the most basic sense of the term: 'radical change is bad, but gradual change is okay'. Just incrementalism and nothing theory-laden.) It is more a work of social/political commentary, i.e. 'the French Revolution is stupid'. True, Reflections is probably still taught on the political theory side of some political science departments. (I first heard about it in an introductory undergraduate poly sci course.) But I doubt it is ever taught in philosophy departments. Even as political theory, it is not political theory like the contractarians (or even Isaiah Berlin, Rawls or Foucault). It is more political theory like Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism, or something -- heavily historical social/political commentary that does not put forth a theory.

Again, I don't know anything about the Lost character, but I suspect that the allusion is unlike the social contract philosophers allusions. If it is a substantive allusions, which I take it we both doubt, I think it is much more likely that it has something to do with aesthetics. Or, perhaps, it could be something a little bit more straightforward along the lines of 'the French Revolution is stupid' ... After all, I would think that Burke is better known for his Reflections.

EDIT: Or it could be what you call "weird coincidences" that really aren't supposed to contribute much. But even if that is right, it is not a weird coincidence in the sense that there are so many characters names after social contract theorists. It would be if his name were Hobbes or something. I guess Hume doesn't belong in the same category either, but at least he was a philosopher, and an Early Modern one, while Burke was more of a social commentator.
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Post#132 » by Ex-hippie » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:12 am

BenjaminH wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I didn't realize that there was a character named Burke. He was probably in a string of episodes that I did not see.


Benjamin, I can't believe you, of all people, reflexively assumed that Burke was a "he"! But I'm speaking of Juliet Burke, the blonde with the annoying smirk, who was one of the Others, but now isn't. And yes, clearly Edmund Burke was opposed in many ways to his Enlightenment contemporaries.
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Post#133 » by BenjaminH » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:43 am

I googled Edmund Burke (and television show characters on Lost).* Now that I re-wikipedia, I find that Edmund was (or is?) Juliet's spouse. I knew about Juliet, I just didn't realize her last name was Burke. I guess that was why I never heard of that him.

I guess that the name Edmund Burke is kind of a "weird coincidences" in the sense that it is an exact name of a famous thinker, the way that John Locke is.

But I still think that you cannot put the allusion into the philosophical category. It is a pretty big jump to call Edmund Burke a philosopher.

*My google results led me to a page with a picture, that looks masculine. In fact, it even lists his gender as male. So, I was justified in assuming his gender. What I was not justified in assuming was that there is only one character with that surname! And for that I apologize.

http://lost.wikia.com/wiki/Edmund_Burke
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Post#134 » by BenjaminH » Tue May 20, 2008 11:39 pm

Ex-hippie wrote:And yes, clearly Edmund Burke was opposed in many ways to his Enlightenment contemporaries.


How so? I don't understand. He was no more an outlier than any of his contemporaries. In fact, I think that he is less of an outlier than most. Could you please explain the ways you think he was opposed?

(My only claim is that Burke cannot be accurately described as a philosopher, which I think is pretty fair.)

Unfortunately, I have not enjoyed any additional Lost episodes this season. Hopefully, you got your wish and this Burke character died.
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Post#135 » by BenjaminH » Tue May 20, 2008 11:52 pm

Oh, do you just mean because he was kind of a reactionary (... which was controversial)?
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Post#136 » by Ex-hippie » Fri May 30, 2008 3:38 am

Ugh, and now there's a Bentham. Okay, now it's overkill. Will there be a Mill and a Kant next season?
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Post#137 » by Troy McClure » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:05 pm

Hopefully, yes.
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Re: OT: General OT Thread 

Post#138 » by BenjaminH » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:08 pm

Thank you, Ex-Hippie, for telling us about this episode of Lost. Unfortunately, I did not watch any more episodes this season, but I just read about the finale online. I agree, the allusions are a bit overkill.

Well, to keep with the trend, it would probably be better to have Early Modern Philosophers instead of Late Modern or 19th Century German Idealists. Besides, names like Kant, Fichte, Schelling and Hegel would be way too farfetched! So, perhaps, names like Reid, Berkeley and Hobbes would be more appropriate. Those are, more or less, everyday surnames. So too, Mill isn't that outlandish. Early modern allusions like Spinoza, Descartes and Malebranche, like the German Idealists, are probably too weird. However, as you have aptly pointed out, it does not seem that the writers are not being consistent with their allusions anyway.

On a side note, according to the synopses I read, it seems that Locke very well may have chosen the alias, Bentham, himself. So perhaps the decision was more about Locke's character trying to be cute than the writers trying to be cute.
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Re: OT: General OT Thread 

Post#139 » by Soriano12 » Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:35 am

Will you guys follow the team in Oklahoma City or will you hop on the Blazers bandwagon?
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Re: OT: General OT Thread 

Post#140 » by Sweezo » Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:42 am

Soriano12 wrote:Will you guys follow the team in Oklahoma City or will you hop on the Blazers bandwagon?


Please...you just posted a couple threads that were a giant "F you" to the entire Sonics fanbase...you made it clear you had no interest in having a reasonable debate with anyone so much as you wanted to stick it in the face of a fanbase that does not merit being mocked. Don't insult our intelligence.

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