Tank World Order (The Remix Vol. IV)

[DelAbbot]

Probably not. IQ/Barrett/Scottie/PF/Poeltl with Dick and Olynyk and a couple new picks isn't a tanking team without some significant injuries

LOL. You think this lineup is better than what we started with this season, with OG + PS?

LOL I think this lineup can hit the crazy lofty heights of 40% winning %, sure. That, to me, means we probably aren't tanking.

remember the days we win at 60% even with Kawhi out the lineup... lol damn, if either Scottie or Poeltl is out of that lineup, we going 30%

[niQ]

Are we tanking next season in a better draft?

I'm predicting 38-42 wins next season to secure a play-in re-match with Derozan's daughter and the Bulls.

Please no.

[islandboy53]

Are you suggesting that while we had OG and Siakam on the team we were tanking?

I can fully understand if people want to consider trading those 2 away as when the tank began, I don't agree but I can see the rationale. But there is no way anyone can reliably argue we've been tanking the whole season. So at best we started "tanking" 41 games into the season once Siakam was gone. I would hardly call that the majority of the season.

And my argument is that we didn't go into full tank until the injuries, which again was with like 25 games remaining. I'm by no means suggesting my definition of tanking is the be all end all, but there has got to be at least a base line, and 41 games would have to be the absolute earliest anyone could realistically call this a tank.

Prior to the injuries we were running a full starting 5, and giving limited to no minutes to the rookies/bad players we have. Sacrificing winning to focus on development is a pretty key part of actual tanking.

Prior vs Post Scottie injury :

Ochai 14.2mpg vs 24.5mpg
Nwora 11.7mpg vs 16mpg
Gradey 15.3mpg vs 28.8mpg
McDaniels 8.8mpg vs 13mpg
Jontay 13mpg vs 15.8mpg

Sure looks a lot more like we are sacrificing wins for development there. I get it, more injuries = more minutes, but lets not pretend that there wasn't a very obvious shift since the injuries occurred.

Everyone agrees that we are tanking. Even you. Except that you are creating this bizarre “definition” that requires a team to play this way for a whole season, or at least 41 games, for it to qualify as a real tank. Which means Portland and Washington weren’t really tanking last year, though they are now. Of course, you’re welcome to use this “definition” for your own purposes. Just don’t expect anyone else to do the same.

I have repeatedly stated that we ARE tanking, this isn't a difficult concept. I've written it in plain English.

we didn't go into full tank until the injuries

This is a retool that pivoted into an unexpected tank with 26 games left in the season out of sheer necessity.

We're overtly tanking now, since the Barnes/Jak injuries.

If you can't gather it from that, I don't know what to tell you man.

Maybe I can make it clearer I guess.

HEY ISLANDBOY53, WE ARE CURRENTLY TANKING.

That good enough? Or should I hire Alvin Williams to do a cameo?

That seems unnecessarily loud. You also said, "I'm by no means suggesting my definition of tanking is the be all end all, but there has got to be at least a base line, and 41 games would have to be the absolute earliest anyone could realistically call this a tank." and "Tanking for the most part is intentional, and usually reserved for most/all of a season", so you'll understand why it was hard to know what you really meant.

I'd love an Alvin Williams cameo, btw.

[Duffman100]

Everyone agrees that we are tanking. Even you. Except that you are creating this bizarre “definition” that requires a team to play this way for a whole season, or at least 41 games, for it to qualify as a real tank. Which means Portland and Washington weren’t really tanking last year, though they are now. Of course, you’re welcome to use this “definition” for your own purposes. Just don’t expect anyone else to do the same.

I have repeatedly stated that we ARE tanking, this isn't a difficult concept. I've written it in plain English.

we didn't go into full tank until the injuries

This is a retool that pivoted into an unexpected tank with 26 games left in the season out of sheer necessity.

We're overtly tanking now, since the Barnes/Jak injuries.

If you can't gather it from that, I don't know what to tell you man.

Maybe I can make it clearer I guess.

HEY ISLANDBOY53, WE ARE CURRENTLY TANKING.

That good enough? Or should I hire Alvin Williams to do a cameo?

That seems unnecessarily loud. You also said, "I'm by no means suggesting my definition of tanking is the be all end all, but there has got to be at least a base line, and 41 games would have to be the absolute earliest anyone could realistically call this a tank." and "Tanking for the most part is intentional, and usually reserved for most/all of a season", so you'll understand why it was hard to know what you really meant.

I'd love an Alvin Williams cameo, btw.

https://memmo.me/ca/en/profile/alvin-williams

[islandboy53]

I have repeatedly stated that we ARE tanking, this isn't a difficult concept. I've written it in plain English.





If you can't gather it from that, I don't know what to tell you man.

Maybe I can make it clearer I guess.

HEY ISLANDBOY53, WE ARE CURRENTLY TANKING.

That good enough? Or should I hire Alvin Williams to do a cameo?

That seems unnecessarily loud. You also said, "I'm by no means suggesting my definition of tanking is the be all end all, but there has got to be at least a base line, and 41 games would have to be the absolute earliest anyone could realistically call this a tank." and "Tanking for the most part is intentional, and usually reserved for most/all of a season", so you'll understand why it was hard to know what you really meant.

I'd love an Alvin Williams cameo, btw.

https://memmo.me/ca/en/profile/alvin-williams

Thanks, I like Alvin!! These are great

[SpezNc]

If it fails, there's going to be a PR tour by the FO about how weak the draft is and how it's in their best interest to give up the pick to Spurs

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

I don't think this board will take an outcome of conveying the pick this year and picking in the teens next year very well.

Here's hoping we give the Spurs a '26 or later pick out of this. It's getting real ugly.

You already have posters on here saying that a pick in the mid-late teens next year is better than the #7 pick this year, lol. There will be plenty of Koolaid drinkers, don't worry.

I am definitively Team Tank . No question about it .

A top6 pick that could be top4 is a massive asset regardless of the draft. Also if we keep the pick this year, the protector roll over next season . I could continue for while why I hope the pick does NOT convey this year .

That is said conveying the pick still hold some advantages.

1- You can turn the page on the Poeltl trade
2- We already have two picks in the 16-32 range this draft
3- Next year we have no pick guarantee if pick does not convey. 2nd rounder is traded as well. Conveying this year would mean we are guaranteed a 1st pick next draft. We can’t trade it (can’t trade two years in a row )
4- We finally have the control of our pick
5- we avoid another situation like this season where need to rely on the lottery to keep the pick
6- Some are arguing about pick 1-6 this season versus 7-10 next draft

I am fully committed wanting us to keep our pick this draft

But conveying the pick would not be catastrophic for me

Slightly disappointing and I will move hoping we can add two assets with IND/DET pick .

[ItsDanger]

I see the arguments for both sides on conveying the pick. Just hope they move off Poeltl at earliest opportunity.

[Scase]

Everyone agrees that we are tanking. Even you. Except that you are creating this bizarre “definition” that requires a team to play this way for a whole season, or at least 41 games, for it to qualify as a real tank. Which means Portland and Washington weren’t really tanking last year, though they are now. Of course, you’re welcome to use this “definition” for your own purposes. Just don’t expect anyone else to do the same.

I have repeatedly stated that we ARE tanking, this isn't a difficult concept. I've written it in plain English.

we didn't go into full tank until the injuries

This is a retool that pivoted into an unexpected tank with 26 games left in the season out of sheer necessity.

We're overtly tanking now, since the Barnes/Jak injuries.

If you can't gather it from that, I don't know what to tell you man.

Maybe I can make it clearer I guess.

HEY ISLANDBOY53, WE ARE CURRENTLY TANKING.

That good enough? Or should I hire Alvin Williams to do a cameo?

That seems unnecessarily loud. You also said, "I'm by no means suggesting my definition of tanking is the be all end all, but there has got to be at least a base line, and 41 games would have to be the absolute earliest anyone could realistically call this a tank." and "Tanking for the most part is intentional, and usually reserved for most/all of a season", so you'll understand why it was hard to know what you really meant.

I'd love an Alvin Williams cameo, btw.

No, I don't see how it was hard to know what I really meant when I explicitly stated we are tanking. Everything you ended up quoting just removes any context so yeah, it'll not make much sense. But I really don't feel like going around in circles again. We are currently tanking.

And I already checked before I posted that, his cameo is sadly not taking requests right now.

[Scase]

I don't think this board will take an outcome of conveying the pick this year and picking in the teens next year very well.

Here's hoping we give the Spurs a '26 or later pick out of this. It's getting real ugly.

You already have posters on here saying that a pick in the mid-late teens next year is better than the #7 pick this year, lol. There will be plenty of Koolaid drinkers, don't worry.

I am definitively Team Tank . No question about it .

A top6 pick that could be top4 is a massive asset regardless of the draft. Also if we keep the pick this year, the protector roll over next season . I could continue for while why I hope pick does NOT convey this year .

That is said conveying the pick still hold some advantage .

1- You can turn the page on the Poeltl trade
2- We already have two picks in the 16-32 range this draft
3- Next year we have no pick guarantee if pick does not convey. 2nd rounder is traded as well. Conveying this year would mean we are guaranteed a 1st pick next draft. We can trade him
4- We finally have the control of our pick
5- we avoid another situation like this season where need to rely on the lottery to keep the pick
6- Some are arguing about pick 1-6 this season versus 7-10 next draft

I am fully committed wanting us to keep our pick this draft

But conveying the pick would not be catastrophic for me

Slightly disappointing and I will move hoping we can add two assets with IND/DET pick .

My concern about conveying it this year, is I have a gut feeling that Masai will just end up making some win now moves over the summer, and push for the play in next year. If it doesn't convey this year, at the very least we get some infusion of talent that doesn't require us sending anything out.

Ideally, I would rather convey this year, and tank hard next year for a top 3 pick, but that is not in Masai's wheel house. So, we have to make due with whatever we get this year.

[dohboy_24]

Are you suggesting that while we had OG and Siakam on the team we were tanking?

I can fully understand if people want to consider trading those 2 away as when the tank began, I don't agree but I can see the rationale. But there is no way anyone can reliably argue we've been tanking the whole season. So at best we started "tanking" 41 games into the season once Siakam was gone. I would hardly call that the majority of the season.

And my argument is that we didn't go into full tank until the injuries, which again was with like 25 games remaining. I'm by no means suggesting my definition of tanking is the be all end all, but there has got to be at least a base line, and 41 games would have to be the absolute earliest anyone could realistically call this a tank.

Prior to the injuries we were running a full starting 5, and giving limited to no minutes to the rookies/bad players we have. Sacrificing winning to focus on development is a pretty key part of actual tanking.

Prior vs Post Scottie injury :

Ochai 14.2mpg vs 24.5mpg
Nwora 11.7mpg vs 16mpg
Gradey 15.3mpg vs 28.8mpg
McDaniels 8.8mpg vs 13mpg
Jontay 13mpg vs 15.8mpg

Sure looks a lot more like we are sacrificing wins for development there. I get it, more injuries = more minutes, but lets not pretend that there wasn't a very obvious shift since the injuries occurred.

After 40 games and a 37.5% win percentage, if we were to have the same record for the second half of the season we'd end up with 30 to 32 wins and between 50 and 52 losses and much closer to Brooklyn (#8 best odds) or Utah (#9 best odds) in the draft lottery standings.

Considering that record also falls just short of making the play-in tournament, the "best case scenario" for the second half of the season after we traded two (2) of the best starters on our team would be to miss the play-in tournament, but still have to send our lottery pick to the Spurs because it wasn't protected as one of the top 6 selections.



For the next 19 games though, we actually played worse than we had previously by quite a meaningful degree, and if we were to maintain such a 31.5% win percentage for the remaining 23 games of the season, our record would predictably have been 28 wins and 54 losses (34% win percentage).

With such a record, we'd place somewhere between Brooklyn (#8 best odds) and Memphis (#7 best odds) in the draft lottery standings and most likely still have to send our lottery pick to the Spurs because it wasn't one of the top 6 selections.

Without Scottie we've only won a single game (1 win, 12 losses = 7% win percentage) and could go the rest of the season without another one so while I would agree we've been tanking since at least the beginning of March, I also wouldn't argue with alone who thought the decision was made after the OG trade with the impending Siakam trade still yet to come since we knew the direction we were going to take with the team as we re-built it around Scottie and retaining our pick this year (top 6) to go along with the others we had acquired would be more ideal than conveying what would likely be a top 10 pick to the Spurs.

Even if we don't win another game for the rest of the season Charlotte (#4) would have to win 5 of its last 10 games (50% win percentage) and/or Portland (#5 best odds) would have to win 4 of its last 9 games (45% win percentage) before we'd catch up to either of them in the draft lottery odds and while that's unlikely to happen, the Raptors tanking efforts could still use some more steam to maintain the gap between us and the Grizzlies and help ensure we get to keep our pick as one of the top 6 selections...

[dohboy_24]

KEEP THE 2023 PICK:

#1: Keep 2023 draft pick (top 6) + Less than 25% win percentage next season = Miss the play-offs + Miss the play-in tournament + Keep 2024 draft pick (top 6)

#2: Keep 2023 draft pick (top 6) + Less than 40% win percentage next season = Miss the play-offs + Miss the play-in tournament + Convey 2024 draft pick (lottery pick) to the Spurs

#3: Keep 2023 draft pick (top 6) + Win 50% of our games next season = Play-in tournament + Convey 2024 draft pick (mid-first round pick)

CONVEY THE 2023 PICK:

#4: Convey 2023 pick + Less than 25% win percentage next season = Miss the play-offs + Miss the play-in tournament + Keep 2024 draft pick (top 6)

#5: Convey 2023 pick + Less than 40% win percentage next season = Miss the play-offs + Miss the play-in tournament + Keep 2024 draft pick (lottery pick)

#6: Convey 2023 pick + Win about 50% of our games next season = Play-in tournament + Keep 2024 draft pick (mid-first round pick)

Given the above options, how would you rank them?

For myself, I would rather the following outcomes in order of preference:

#1: Keep 2023 draft pick (top 6) & keep 2024 draft pick (top 6), send two (2) second rounds as compensation
#4: Convey 2023 draft pick (top 7-10) & keep 2024 draft pick (top 6)
#3: Keep 2023 draft pick (top 6) & convey 2024 draft pick (mid-first round)
#2: Keep 2023 draft pick (top 6) & convey 2024 draft pick (lottery)
#5: Convey 2023 draft pick (top 7-10) & keep 2024 draft pick (lottery)
#6: Convey 2023 draft pick (top 7-10) & keep 2024 draft pick (mid-first round)

For those of you who want to convey the pick this year, would you be just as happy with scenario #5 or scenario #6 as you would scenario #4 or would you be disappointed if we gave away our 2023 draft pick (top 7-10) to the Spurs only to end up with a 2024 draft pick that wasn't any better (scenario #5) or even worse (scenario #6)?

... and if you're predicting scenario #4 as the most likely to occur, then why wouldn't you want keep our 2023 draft pick as well and end up with a best-case scenario (#1) of two (2) top 6 picks in back-to-back drafts while only having to send two (2) second round picks to the Spurs as compensation for the Poeltl trade?

[SpezNc]

You already have posters on here saying that a pick in the mid-late teens next year is better than the #7 pick this year, lol. There will be plenty of Koolaid drinkers, don't worry.

I am definitively Team Tank . No question about it .

A top6 pick that could be top4 is a massive asset regardless of the draft. Also if we keep the pick this year, the protector roll over next season . I could continue for while why I hope pick does NOT convey this year .

That is said conveying the pick still hold some advantage .

1- You can turn the page on the Poeltl trade
2- We already have two picks in the 16-32 range this draft
3- Next year we have no pick guarantee if pick does not convey. 2nd rounder is traded as well. Conveying this year would mean we are guaranteed a 1st pick next draft. We can trade him
4- We finally have the control of our pick
5- we avoid another situation like this season where need to rely on the lottery to keep the pick
6- Some are arguing about pick 1-6 this season versus 7-10 next draft

I am fully committed wanting us to keep our pick this draft

But conveying the pick would not be catastrophic for me

Slightly disappointing and I will move hoping we can add two assets with IND/DET pick .

My concern about conveying it this year, is I have a gut feeling that Masai will just end up making some win now moves over the summer, and push for the play in next year. If it doesn't convey this year, at the very least we get some infusion of talent that doesn't require us sending anything out.

Ideally, I would rather convey this year, and tank hard next year for a top 3 pick, but that is not in Masai's wheel house. So, we have to make do with whatever we get this year.

I am in total agreement with you here .

[islandboy53]

You already have posters on here saying that a pick in the mid-late teens next year is better than the #7 pick this year, lol. There will be plenty of Koolaid drinkers, don't worry.

I am definitively Team Tank . No question about it .

A top6 pick that could be top4 is a massive asset regardless of the draft. Also if we keep the pick this year, the protector roll over next season . I could continue for while why I hope pick does NOT convey this year .

That is said conveying the pick still hold some advantage .

1- You can turn the page on the Poeltl trade
2- We already have two picks in the 16-32 range this draft
3- Next year we have no pick guarantee if pick does not convey. 2nd rounder is traded as well. Conveying this year would mean we are guaranteed a 1st pick next draft. We can trade him
4- We finally have the control of our pick
5- we avoid another situation like this season where need to rely on the lottery to keep the pick
6- Some are arguing about pick 1-6 this season versus 7-10 next draft

I am fully committed wanting us to keep our pick this draft

But conveying the pick would not be catastrophic for me

Slightly disappointing and I will move hoping we can add two assets with IND/DET pick .

My concern about conveying it this year, is I have a gut feeling that Masai will just end up making some win now moves over the summer, and push for the play in next year. If it doesn't convey this year, at the very least we get some infusion of talent that doesn't require us sending anything out.

Ideally, I would rather convey this year, and tank hard next year for a top 3 pick, but that is not in Masai's wheel house. So, we have to make due with whatever we get this year.

We've seen the last few games what "tanking hard" looks like. It's not in most fans' "wheel houses either.

[Scase]

I am definitively Team Tank . No question about it .

A top6 pick that could be top4 is a massive asset regardless of the draft. Also if we keep the pick this year, the protector roll over next season . I could continue for while why I hope pick does NOT convey this year .

That is said conveying the pick still hold some advantage .

1- You can turn the page on the Poeltl trade
2- We already have two picks in the 16-32 range this draft
3- Next year we have no pick guarantee if pick does not convey. 2nd rounder is traded as well. Conveying this year would mean we are guaranteed a 1st pick next draft. We can trade him
4- We finally have the control of our pick
5- we avoid another situation like this season where need to rely on the lottery to keep the pick
6- Some are arguing about pick 1-6 this season versus 7-10 next draft

I am fully committed wanting us to keep our pick this draft

But conveying the pick would not be catastrophic for me

Slightly disappointing and I will move hoping we can add two assets with IND/DET pick .

My concern about conveying it this year, is I have a gut feeling that Masai will just end up making some win now moves over the summer, and push for the play in next year. If it doesn't convey this year, at the very least we get some infusion of talent that doesn't require us sending anything out.

Ideally, I would rather convey this year, and tank hard next year for a top 3 pick, but that is not in Masai's wheel house. So, we have to make due with whatever we get this year.

We've seen the last few games what "tanking hard" looks like. It's not in most fans' "wheel houses either.

No one typically enjoys watching losing basketball that's for sure, but there is losing basketball with a team stacked with G leaguers, and losing basketball with a bunch of quality prospects.

OKC was fun to watch the last few years, ORL wasn't too bad either. You can put a product on court that shows potential that won't drive everyone away, but you have to have more than 1 or 2 players worth watching. We don't have that.

[ItsDanger]

Team compete doesn't like rebuilds. But a team with several young guys with promising upside can be entertaining. The poor product currently on the court reflects neglecting acquisition of a steady flow of young talent. So much wasted time and opportunity. Not sure Bobby is up to this particular task. Join team rebuild and get an exciting roster again.

[Los_29]

They weren’t really tanking until Scottie got hurt, no idea why. Trading FRPs for old bigs 2 years in a row is, well, not what tanking teams do, at all. I’m still not sure what the plan was, or even if there was one, but yeah, it looks like we spun our wheels for too long, now it’s probably down to hoping for extraordinary luck with the ping pong balls.

The FRP they gave up this year was OKC’s pick. Likely to be in that 27-30 range. Ochai was also in that deal and I’d argue was a more important piece than KO. We know what KO can do. He’s been on awful teams for awhile now. He’s not a needle mover but he will make guys around him better offensively. Good guy to have for our young players.

You can argue Ochai was more important, but Masai said that they don’t make the trade without being confident KO will resign. And Ochai has been a negative performer in every sphere of basketball every year of his career. He’s a great linear athlete and will therefore occasionally make an impressive play, but he’s just not very good at basketball, and he turns 24 in a few weeks.

But the pick being a late FRP really doesn’t matter re: rebuilding, because it’s still a draft pick, as opposed to a 32 year old. And on the season he has 4.1 WS, which is tied for 2nd on the team with IQ, and if you don’t think that moves the needle much, YMMV, but it’s still moving it in the wrong direction, for a guy who will be out of the league by the time this team is contending. The opp. cost alone is bad for a tanking team, the actual strategic thinking is 100% contrary to rebuilding.

And lastly, getting good vets around your young stars can be beneficial, but not before you get all but one of them. It’s ass backwards and counter productive…it is literally making it harder to get them even before accounting for the fact that you gave up first round picks to get the disadvantage of their making it harder to get higher picks. Sorry, there is no way to look at the Jak or KO trades as anything but the opposite of tanking.

I didn’t say they didn’t want KO. But I don’t think they make that trade without Ochai involved. Ochai doesn’t have a lot of upside but there is a path to him being a solid rotation player in this league.

In the last three years, KO has played on three teams that wanted to lose games. Houston, Detroit and Utah. So what you are suggesting is just simply not true. There seems to be a reason why they want KO to play with their young players.

The value of a pick depends on where it is slotted. It’s extremely hard to hit on picks in the late 20’s. You’re lucky to even get a player that sticks in the league for half a decade with a pick that late. They are worth very little.

[islandboy53]

My concern about conveying it this year, is I have a gut feeling that Masai will just end up making some win now moves over the summer, and push for the play in next year. If it doesn't convey this year, at the very least we get some infusion of talent that doesn't require us sending anything out.

Ideally, I would rather convey this year, and tank hard next year for a top 3 pick, but that is not in Masai's wheel house. So, we have to make due with whatever we get this year.

We've seen the last few games what "tanking hard" looks like. It's not in most fans' "wheel houses either.

No one typically enjoys watching losing basketball that's for sure, but there is losing basketball with a team stacked with G leaguers, and losing basketball with a bunch of quality prospects.

OKC was fun to watch the last few years, ORL wasn't too bad either. You can put a product on court that shows potential that won't drive everyone away, but you have to have more than 1 or 2 players worth watching. We don't have that.

So, in your humble opinion, which of Barnes, Barrett, IQ and Dick don't qualify as players worth watching? We've been missing the 1st 3 of those for what seems like months now, and putting them back in to replace the G leaguers will transform the product on the court. We'll be back to winning ways soon. I hope it won't be too traumatic for you.

[TimeForChange]

Read on Twitter

[islandboy53]

Team compete doesn't like rebuilds. But a team with several young guys with promising upside can be entertaining. The poor product currently on the court reflects neglecting acquisition of a steady flow of young talent. So much wasted time and opportunity. Not sure Bobby is up to this particular task. Join team rebuild and get an exciting roster again.

What are you on about? I know you're sometimes a little disconnected from reality, but this is truly bizarre. Get a grip, man!

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

We’re basically running G-leaguers out there. I’m not surprised the efficiency has taken a hit.