Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai!

[ArthurVandelay]

Pretty sure the Raps consider Agbaji as part of their 'developing core' similar to Gradey; guys they really want to try to invest in their growth. He definitely wasn't just a throw-in. We do need more 3-Ds, and Ochai can fill in that role once he works on his shot. He has had some nice games for Utah before

All of this isn't rocket science. Can he hit the 3 ball. If he can, he has great value. If he can't, he likely won't last.

So the FO is clearly banking that last year was an outlier and they believe in the other 5 years of growth. They might be right, they might be wrong.

It's nice to have players that don't need the ball in their hands.

This should be the easiest, simplest, and shortest discussion ever.

The bold is the only answer.

[Duffman100]

Pretty sure the Raps consider Agbaji as part of their 'developing core' similar to Gradey; guys they really want to try to invest in their growth. He definitely wasn't just a throw-in. We do need more 3-Ds, and Ochai can fill in that role once he works on his shot. He has had some nice games for Utah before

All of this isn't rocket science. Can he hit the 3 ball. If he can, he has great value. If he can't, he likely won't last.

So the FO is clearly banking that last year was an outlier and they believe in the other 5 years of growth. They might be right, they might be wrong.

It's nice to have players that don't need the ball in their hands.

This should be the easiest, simplest, and shortest discussion ever.

The bold is the only answer.

It's a whole lot of talk over the 29th pick Especially when we have a pick 2 picks later.

[YogurtProducer]

All of this isn't rocket science. Can he hit the 3 ball. If he can, he has great value. If he can't, he likely won't last.

So the FO is clearly banking that last year was an outlier and they believe in the other 5 years of growth. They might be right, they might be wrong.

It's nice to have players that don't need the ball in their hands.

This should be the easiest, simplest, and shortest discussion ever.

The bold is the only answer.

It's a whole lot of talk over the 29th pick Especially when we have a pick 2 picks later.

ESPECIALLY considering the average 29th pick ends up out of the league, and we ended up getting a decent bench piece AND Agbaji who already has exceeded the average 29th pick.

Sure, the 29th pick could end up being a stud, but so could the 19th or 31st pick. Sometimes it is good to hedge your bets with a combination of low risk high floor pieces (Agbaji/Kelly) and higher risk lower floor pieces (#19, #31).

[ArthurVandelay]

All of this isn't rocket science. Can he hit the 3 ball. If he can, he has great value. If he can't, he likely won't last.

So the FO is clearly banking that last year was an outlier and they believe in the other 5 years of growth. They might be right, they might be wrong.

It's nice to have players that don't need the ball in their hands.

This should be the easiest, simplest, and shortest discussion ever.

The bold is the only answer.

It's a whole lot of talk over the 29th pick Especially when we have a pick 2 picks later.

And then there is that.

[mdenny]

This should be the easiest, simplest, and shortest discussion ever.

The bold is the only answer.

It's a whole lot of talk over the 29th pick Especially when we have a pick 2 picks later.

And then there is that.

lol Ochai was the 14th overall in a much better draft than this year.

The mystery box ppl would be like "why aren't our veterans passing the ball to Ochai and generally being subservient to him?" if we drafted him 14th overall this year.

But these are the same ppl who alternate between "I told you Siakam is horrible" and "we didn't get enough for Siakam" depending on the boxscore of a given night.

[ConSarnit]

This should be the easiest, simplest, and shortest discussion ever.

The bold is the only answer.

It's a whole lot of talk over the 29th pick Especially when we have a pick 2 picks later.

And then there is that.

For the sake of our sanity, we must hope and pray that the 29th and 30th picks are busts. If either end up as rotation players (at any time in the next decade) there will be a contingent of posters who will never let it go and treat the Agbaji trade like it was a disaster tantamount to 9/11.

[Yallbecrazy]

It's a whole lot of talk over the 29th pick Especially when we have a pick 2 picks later.

And then there is that.

lol Ochai was the 14th overall in a much better draft than this year.

The mystery box ppl would be like "why aren't our veterans passing the ball to Ochai and generally being subservient to him?" if we drafted him 14th overall this year.

But these are the same ppl who alternate between "I told you Siakam is horrible" and "we didn't get enough for Siakam" depending on the boxscore of a given night.

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft which would be roughly in the 20s in this draft. Unfortunately he hasn't shown to improve or be good in the NBA yet so his value has dropped from there. I think he would have been worth a mid to late 2nd in this draft so we overpaid in my opinion. I didn't like the trade then and he really needs to take a jump to even be a rotational player on a contender.

[Duffman100]

And then there is that.

lol Ochai was the 14th overall in a much better draft than this year.

The mystery box ppl would be like "why aren't our veterans passing the ball to Ochai and generally being subservient to him?" if we drafted him 14th overall this year.

But these are the same ppl who alternate between "I told you Siakam is horrible" and "we didn't get enough for Siakam" depending on the boxscore of a given night.

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft

Literally every mock draft had him at 13-21. It's a weird statement to make.

[Yallbecrazy]

lol Ochai was the 14th overall in a much better draft than this year.

The mystery box ppl would be like "why aren't our veterans passing the ball to Ochai and generally being subservient to him?" if we drafted him 14th overall this year.

But these are the same ppl who alternate between "I told you Siakam is horrible" and "we didn't get enough for Siakam" depending on the boxscore of a given night.

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft

Literally every mock draft had him at 13-21. It's a weird statement to make.

dean had him #29, and looking back that was actually a fairly weak draft. He was 22 with a 9.0 bpm that was fairly inflated because of his 3pt shooting despite only being a 74% free throw shooter his final year(sub 70 his other three years). He was a poor rebounder and had more turnovers than assists.
His lack of bbiq was evident in his college stats and it shows now that while he's a decent on ball defender, he's a poor team defender and isn't smart enough to play on Darko's offense.

He also only got 1.7 stocks per 40.

[OakleyDokely]

Ochai currently ranks 25th in winshares in his draft class, which seems about right. He's performing like a typical late 1st, which is what he was traded for. I can understand why people would rather opt for the mystery box, but the mystery box could also be a complete bust and you waste 2-3 years figuring that out, like the Raps did with Flynn. Ochai is a little further along in his development.

If the Raps didn't have 19 and 31 already in this draft, they probably keep 29. If there was an option to flip one of these picks for a '25 1st , that probably would've been the best option.

[Yallbecrazy]

Ochai currently ranks 25th in winshares in his draft class, which seems about right. He's performing like a typical late 1st, which is what he was traded for. I can understand why people would rather opt for the mystery box, but the mystery box could also be a complete bust and you waste 2-3 years figuring that out, like the Raps did with Flynn. Ochai is a little further along in his development.

If the Raps didn't have 19 and 31 already in this draft, they probably keep 29. If there was an option to flip one of these picks for a '25 pick, that probably would've been the best option.

25th is almost the same as a complete bust. You pretty much need guys who are top 8-15 in their draft class (depending on the class) for them to be of value. If a player is replacement level or wose it doesn't matter how much worse they are. The value of the 29th pick is that they have a small chance of being a top 10 player in that class, so if they perform at their draft slot it is pretty much a wasted pick and the value of that player two years later has declined significantly.

edit: There's still some value as he is more likely to take a jump and become valuable than someone who was 50th in winshares, but they still need to make that semi-unlikely jump to be of value.

[C_Money]

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft

Literally every mock draft had him at 13-21. It's a weird statement to make.

dean had him #29, and looking back that was actually a fairly weak draft. He was 22 with a 9.0 bpm that was fairly inflated because of his 3pt shooting despite only being a 74% free throw shooter his final year(sub 70 his other three years). He was a poor rebounder and had more turnovers than assists.
His lack of bbiq was evident in his college stats and it shows now that while he's a decent on ball defender, he's a poor team defender and isn't smart enough to play on Darko's offense.

He also only got 1.7 stocks per 40.

I noticed this too. Not just Ochai but the entire roster.

When people on this forum say somebody is a “good defender” they pretty much always mean on-ball defender.

[OakleyDokely]

Ochai currently ranks 25th in winshares in his draft class, which seems about right. He's performing like a typical late 1st, which is what he was traded for. I can understand why people would rather opt for the mystery box, but the mystery box could also be a complete bust and you waste 2-3 years figuring that out, like the Raps did with Flynn. Ochai is a little further along in his development.

If the Raps didn't have 19 and 31 already in this draft, they probably keep 29. If there was an option to flip one of these picks for a '25 pick, that probably would've been the best option.

25th is almost the same as a complete bust. You pretty much need guys who are top 8-15 in their draft class (depending on the class) for them to be of value. If a player is replacement level or wose it doesn't matter how much worse they are. The value of the 29th pick is that they have a small chance of being a top 10 player in that class, so if they perform at their draft slot it is pretty much a wasted pick and the value of that player two years later has declined significantly.

The guys in that range aren't separated by much at this point, so it's too early to say.

A guy like S Sharpe is still only 21st. If you can at least show you have NBA potential and you're still playable a couple years into your career, there's hope.

[Yallbecrazy]

Ochai currently ranks 25th in winshares in his draft class, which seems about right. He's performing like a typical late 1st, which is what he was traded for. I can understand why people would rather opt for the mystery box, but the mystery box could also be a complete bust and you waste 2-3 years figuring that out, like the Raps did with Flynn. Ochai is a little further along in his development.

If the Raps didn't have 19 and 31 already in this draft, they probably keep 29. If there was an option to flip one of these picks for a '25 pick, that probably would've been the best option.

25th is almost the same as a complete bust. You pretty much need guys who are top 8-15 in their draft class (depending on the class) for them to be of value. If a player is replacement level or wose it doesn't matter how much worse they are. The value of the 29th pick is that they have a small chance of being a top 10 player in that class, so if they perform at their draft slot it is pretty much a wasted pick and the value of that player two years later has declined significantly.

The guys in that range aren't separated by much at this point, so it's too early to say.

A guy like S Sharpe is still only 21st. If you can at least show you have NBA potential and you're still playable a couple years into your career, there's hope.

Sharpe was raw and shows potential and is more than 3 years younger. Agbaji was a senior so he should be higher in win shares early in his career. The fact he's still 25th despite being older really doesn't bode well, especially since he's supposed to be a 3+D guy. Creators and big men generally take longer to develop while 3+D wings get close to their peak earlier.

If Sharpe was 24 and didn't have top 5 percentile athleticism I doubt anyone would be very high on him either.

[OakleyDokely]

25th is almost the same as a complete bust. You pretty much need guys who are top 8-15 in their draft class (depending on the class) for them to be of value. If a player is replacement level or wose it doesn't matter how much worse they are. The value of the 29th pick is that they have a small chance of being a top 10 player in that class, so if they perform at their draft slot it is pretty much a wasted pick and the value of that player two years later has declined significantly.

The guys in that range aren't separated by much at this point, so it's too early to say.

A guy like S Sharpe is still only 21st. If you can at least show you have NBA potential and you're still playable a couple years into your career, there's hope.

Sharpe was raw and shows potential and is more than 3 years younger. Agbaji was a senior so he should be higher in win shares early in his career. The fact he's still 25th despite being older really doesn't bode well, especially since he's supposed to be a 3+D guy. Creators and big men generally take longer to develop while 3+D wings get close to their peak earlier.

Ochai already has a NBA skill, his defense, now it's a matter whether he becomes a consistent 3pt shooter, which doesn't always show up after 2 seasons.

[Yallbecrazy]

The guys in that range aren't separated by much at this point, so it's too early to say.

A guy like S Sharpe is still only 21st. If you can at least show you have NBA potential and you're still playable a couple years into your career, there's hope.

Sharpe was raw and shows potential and is more than 3 years younger. Agbaji was a senior so he should be higher in win shares early in his career. The fact he's still 25th despite being older really doesn't bode well, especially since he's supposed to be a 3+D guy. Creators and big men generally take longer to develop while 3+D wings get close to their peak earlier.

Ochai already has a NBA skill, his defense, now it's a matter whether he becomes a consistent 3pt shooter, which doesn't always show up after 2 seasons.

On ball defense he's good at, but not great at. He lacks bbiq on the defensive end and gets lost on rotations too frequently. He's also really poor at defensive rebounding and fails to box out.

[OakleyDokely]

Sharpe was raw and shows potential and is more than 3 years younger. Agbaji was a senior so he should be higher in win shares early in his career. The fact he's still 25th despite being older really doesn't bode well, especially since he's supposed to be a 3+D guy. Creators and big men generally take longer to develop while 3+D wings get close to their peak earlier.

Ochai already has a NBA skill, his defense, now it's a matter whether he becomes a consistent 3pt shooter, which doesn't always show up after 2 seasons.

On ball defense he's good at, but not great at. He lacks bbiq on the defensive end and gets lost on rotations too frequently. He's also really poor at defensive rebounding and fails to box out.

Ya, he has a lot of flaws. Just like the guy you'd get at 29.

[bobbyp3588]

And then there is that.

lol Ochai was the 14th overall in a much better draft than this year.

The mystery box ppl would be like "why aren't our veterans passing the ball to Ochai and generally being subservient to him?" if we drafted him 14th overall this year.

But these are the same ppl who alternate between "I told you Siakam is horrible" and "we didn't get enough for Siakam" depending on the boxscore of a given night.

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft which would be roughly in the 20s in this draft. Unfortunately he hasn't shown to improve or be good in the NBA yet so his value has dropped from there. I think he would have been worth a mid to late 2nd in this draft so we overpaid in my opinion. I didn't like the trade then and he really needs to take a jump to even be a rotational player on a contender.

That’s a shockingly stupid opinion. Like head full of rocks stuff.

I guess math and logic are not your strong points?

Warned. Personal Attack.

[Yallbecrazy]

lol Ochai was the 14th overall in a much better draft than this year.

The mystery box ppl would be like "why aren't our veterans passing the ball to Ochai and generally being subservient to him?" if we drafted him 14th overall this year.

But these are the same ppl who alternate between "I told you Siakam is horrible" and "we didn't get enough for Siakam" depending on the boxscore of a given night.

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft which would be roughly in the 20s in this draft. Unfortunately he hasn't shown to improve or be good in the NBA yet so his value has dropped from there. I think he would have been worth a mid to late 2nd in this draft so we overpaid in my opinion. I didn't like the trade then and he really needs to take a jump to even be a rotational player on a contender.

That’s a shockingly stupid opinion. Like head full of rocks stuff.

I guess math and logic are not your strong points?

lol, my strongest actually. Please explain the flaws in my statement.

[Badonkadonk]

Looking at Ochai's college stats he should have been drafted in the 30s or 40s in that draft which would be roughly in the 20s in this draft. Unfortunately he hasn't shown to improve or be good in the NBA yet so his value has dropped from there. I think he would have been worth a mid to late 2nd in this draft so we overpaid in my opinion. I didn't like the trade then and he really needs to take a jump to even be a rotational player on a contender.

That’s a shockingly stupid opinion. Like head full of rocks stuff.

I guess math and logic are not your strong points?

lol, my strongest actually. Please explain the flaws in my statement.

You supplanted the NBA-determined market value for Ochai (14th pick) with your own using his "college" stats, without context, comparison or anything else that's relevant to scouting. NBADraft.net had him 14th in their mock (nice guess!). TheRinger had him 22nd. Saying he should have been in the 30s or 40s is just arbitrary and opposes not just his determined value, but how the consensus viewed him.

He played 20+mpg as a rookie because he has NBA starter-level skill on D, and was passable offensively. As others have stated, his path to rotation minutes is very clear - if he can shoot more consistently, he'll be a solid player in the league. He's already been a useful one bc of his defense, which is less sexy but impacts every single play.

I'm surprised Utah flipped him in his 2nd year. Often times, a player will show what they can be in year 3 right before their rookie-scale contract is up. That the 29th pick was flipped for both him and a useful 4/5 who's contributed strong value for his salary and in an area of need is just an objectively good trade.