2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs

[C_Money]

I wonder what Houston wants for that 3rd overall pick.

[will]

I wonder what Houston wants for that 3rd overall pick.

Man, if it's Houston, would be blowing up their phones and internet lines for Alperen Shengoon to pair with Scottish.

Fck the 3rd overall pick!

[canada_dry]

So in conversations around Ochai. We can't use the "29th pick could be a star" as an argument because we should judge in the expected value.

the same energy wont be kept. We know this.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Scase]

The Nets gifted Allen to the Cavs because they were looking to clear cap space to sign KD and Kyrie, or they needed a draft pick to move to help them clear salaries, and Allen was sent to the Cavs for that pick. Masai, like many other GMs was probably trying to get in on that deal.

Raps did draft a young C for the future in Koloko. Unfortunately due to health, that didn't work out.

I wouldn't consider IH a long-term solution at C. He is not even NY's preferred option at C, as Mitchell is that, but he is just hurt.

And Yak is a better C than Claxton will ever be.

I don't know why people are so hung up on trading the 8th pick in a weak draft for a good long-term (4-5 year) solution at C.

And I don't know why people can't seem to understand that the opportunity cost extends well beyond the 8th pick in a weak draft.

It has limited our flexibility, it massively devalued our 2023 pick, it cost us a future pick, and has us mired in mediocrity.

Masai himself has literally called the trade a mistake, and you people are still out here defending it. Unbelievable.

Ok, I get it. We are just on opposite sides here of how to build this team out. You are clearly thinking the Wiz/Pistons approach, which is tear it down, suck for many years, and hope you luck into a generational talent. And any trade that moves the team away from the bottom of the league, is a bad move. Of course that approach has worked out well for so many teams. I would remined you that OKC's generational star was acquired through a trade, and Denver's generational star was a 2nd round pick. Otherwise we are hoping we are lucky to land the 1st pick in a year a Jordan, Shaq, Lebron or Wemby becomes available, which is like once a decade.

I on the other hand actually prefer the approach Masai has taken, to try and develop a competitive team, where young players can grow and develop, and then strategically tank if the opportunity presents itself (bubble year where they got lucky with the 4th pick, and this year where they were unlucky and didn't end up with a top 4 pick).

All I have called for, over and over again, is 2 years of outright tanking. Not a decade of it. Your approach of growing and developing only works when you have legit talent. We have a team devoid of any high level talent outside of Scottie. I'm not suggesting you tank until you get a generational talent, and I never have. I suggested you tank to get a solid core of very good young players, develop them and flip them into better pieces in the future. If you luck into a wemby, then you are golden.

This isn't a zero sum game, it's giving you the best chance at succeeding. You claim you want the Masai approach, yet that was built off the back of MULTIPLE top 10 picks that were good, but not great, and got flipped into better players.

You're not asking for that, you're asking for more mediocrity disguised as being competitive. You know who was "competitive"? The FVV/Siakam/OG core. The same one people have been clamouring to break up for years cause the ceiling is a 2nd round exit. And what happened? We let one walk, we got a trash return for another, and the only reason we got a good return for the third, is due to connections to the team they went to.

Again, Masai admitted the Jak trade was a mistake. He admitted he became too attached to his players and it backfired. How is it, that Masai, the person you are trying so very hard to defend and claim is doing it correctly, came out and publicly stated that he screwed up?

Like what more do you need to recognize that, that route, didn't work. And it's time to try something else. Unless you think our entire success hinges on another once in a lifetime pandemic or 2 players randomly getting freak season ending injuries within 2 days of each other? Being opportunistic has failed over and over again for years now, it's time to be proactive and not let the rest of the league dictate what we do.

And I'm the one relying on luck.

[nikster]

I was not using 1bpg as a cut off, I was using the basic top 20 in the NBA, of which Jak is not on as he does not qualify. He averaged 1.5 or more per game twice in his entire career, both with dog **** SAS teams. He is not an elite shot blocker, and no one in their right mind would ever call him one.

Since 2019 he averages 1.5 blocks in over 320 games.

Never said he's an elite shot blocker, but if he's not guys like Zubac, Hartenstein and Robinson (at least this year) sure as hell aren't

No he's not like Zubac, cause zubac isn't elite either. But guess where the clippers are? Cancun. IH and Robinson are a good duo at C, neither of them has to be elite, the knicks always have a good shot blocking presence on the court. They can afford to be good by committee.

Okay but the guy said you have to have a good 3 point shooter or an elite shot blocker at Centrebut about half the playoff/play in teams don't, including 3 teams still remaining (and Clippers and Heat suffered major injuries to their stars,how could their elimination possibly be an indictment of their C rotation?)

It's just a lazy argument

[will]

And I don't know why people can't seem to understand that the opportunity cost extends well beyond the 8th pick in a weak draft.

It has limited our flexibility, it massively devalued our 2023 pick, it cost us a future pick, and has us mired in mediocrity.

Masai himself has literally called the trade a mistake, and you people are still out here defending it. Unbelievable.

Ok, I get it. We are just on opposite sides here of how to build this team out. You are clearly thinking the Wiz/Pistons approach, which is tear it down, suck for many years, and hope you luck into a generational talent. And any trade that moves the team away from the bottom of the league, is a bad move. Of course that approach has worked out well for so many teams. I would remined you that OKC's generational star was acquired through a trade, and Denver's generational star was a 2nd round pick. Otherwise we are hoping we are lucky to land the 1st pick in a year a Jordan, Shaq, Lebron or Wemby becomes available, which is like once a decade.

I on the other hand actually prefer the approach Masai has taken, to try and develop a competitive team, where young players can grow and develop, and then strategically tank if the opportunity presents itself (bubble year where they got lucky with the 4th pick, and this year where they were unlucky and didn't end up with a top 4 pick).

All I have called for, over and over again, is 2 years of outright tanking. Not a decade of it. Your approach of growing and developing only works when you have legit talent. We have a team devoid of any high level talent outside of Scottie. I'm not suggesting you tank until you get a generational talent, and I never have. I suggested you tank to get a solid core of very good young players, develop them and flip them into better pieces in the future. If you luck into a wemby, then you are golden.

This isn't a zero sum game, it's giving you the best chance at succeeding. You claim you want the Masai approach, yet that was built off the back of MULTIPLE top 10 picks that were good, but not great, and got flipped into better players.

You're not asking for that, you're asking for more mediocrity disguised as being competitive. You know who was "competitive"? The FVV/Siakam/OG core. The same one people have been clamouring to break up for years cause the ceiling is a 2nd round exit. And what happened? We let one walk, we got a trash return for another, and the only reason we got a good return for the third, is due to connections to the team they went to.

Again, Masai admitted the Jak trade was a mistake. He admitted he became too attached to his players and it backfired. How is it, that Masai, the person you are trying so very hard to defend and claim is doing it correctly, came out and publicly stated that he screwed up?

Like what more do you need to recognize that, that route, didn't work. And it's time to try something else. Unless you think our entire success hinges on another once in a lifetime pandemic or 2 players randomly getting freak season ending injuries within 2 days of each other? Being opportunistic has failed over and over again for years now, it's time to be proactive and not let the rest of the league dictate what we do.

And I'm the one relying on luck.

Amen.

[Chandan]

These posters referring to Detroit dropping to 5th as evidence tanking doesn't work are exposing themselves as lacking of basic understanding of math and probabilty.

The lottery exists with a probability. If your team is devoid of talent, you try to get highest probability to acquire top end talent through the draft. What these guys are saying is "hey look at Detroit, their tanking / losing for the highest probability didn't guarantee them the top pick - they shouldn't even have tried / tanked".

Go back to school before posting

I was going to ask where did these guys get their education
it's not even lack of logic at this point. It's like being intentionally obtuse.

If Steph Curry ever misses an open 3 point shot that's their cue that no players should ever attempt a 3 point shot because the shot JUST. DOESN'T. WORK!

[PushDaRock]

And I don't know why people can't seem to understand that the opportunity cost extends well beyond the 8th pick in a weak draft.

It has limited our flexibility, it massively devalued our 2023 pick, it cost us a future pick, and has us mired in mediocrity.

Masai himself has literally called the trade a mistake, and you people are still out here defending it. Unbelievable.

With perfect hindsight knowing exactly where we would be at right now, of course Masai probably doesn't make the Poeltl deal. We don't deal in certainties though and it's a game of incomplete information.

You also have to weigh in the potential return Poeltl could get back in the future in judging the trade as a whole. A team like OKC can easily afford to part with a first rounder, maybe even 2 of them for Poeltl who would fill a massive need. If we were to get back a first rounder, the trade looks nowhere near as bad trading the 8th pick in a weaker draft while getting back a competent Center for a couple years plus a first rounder back.

Either way, the Poeltl trade is definitely not the worst decision Masai has made. The Carroll signing was much worse, overpaying and then having to give up a first rounder to unload him was brutal. Although you could kind of argue that cap flexibility gained from dumping him is what allowed us to build the roster for the championship.

Lol so you can only judge how bad the Jak trade has been, based off some hypothetical return if he even gets traded? Holy ever loving ****, this is a new level of copium.

It is a bad trade, plenty of people said it was the moment it happened, hindsight is not needed. This is easily the worst trade he has made in his tenure here. Top 3 worst decision as well.

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

[Scase]

Since 2019 he averages 1.5 blocks in over 320 games.

Never said he's an elite shot blocker, but if he's not guys like Zubac, Hartenstein and Robinson (at least this year) sure as hell aren't

No he's not like Zubac, cause zubac isn't elite either. But guess where the clippers are? Cancun. IH and Robinson are a good duo at C, neither of them has to be elite, the knicks always have a good shot blocking presence on the court. They can afford to be good by committee.

Okay but the guy said you have to have a good 3 point shooter or an elite shot blocker at Centrebut about half the playoff/play in teams don't, including 3 teams still remaining (and Clippers and Heat suffered major injuries to their stars,how could their elimination possibly be an indictment of their C rotation?)

It's just a lazy argument

So you think taking a victory lap that the majority of the teams you are referencing as not having/needing those being out of the playoffs is a smart argument?

Knicks again, have very good shot blocking by committee. They also have 5 guys shooting about 40% or higher in the playoffs. Hence 3pt shooting from their C spot not being integral.

The Mavs have a top 3-5 player in the NBA with Luka, and Kyrie shooting out of his mind.

And there is no third. So 2 teams don't have explicit elite 3pt shooting or shot blocking, but compensate for it heavily elsewhere. But lets ignore the other 6 that do.

The whole argument against Jak at the time of the trade and now, is that we don't have a team that can compensate for his massive limitations. How is this so difficult to follow?

[Scase]

With perfect hindsight knowing exactly where we would be at right now, of course Masai probably doesn't make the Poeltl deal. We don't deal in certainties though and it's a game of incomplete information.

You also have to weigh in the potential return Poeltl could get back in the future in judging the trade as a whole. A team like OKC can easily afford to part with a first rounder, maybe even 2 of them for Poeltl who would fill a massive need. If we were to get back a first rounder, the trade looks nowhere near as bad trading the 8th pick in a weaker draft while getting back a competent Center for a couple years plus a first rounder back.

Either way, the Poeltl trade is definitely not the worst decision Masai has made. The Carroll signing was much worse, overpaying and then having to give up a first rounder to unload him was brutal. Although you could kind of argue that cap flexibility gained from dumping him is what allowed us to build the roster for the championship.

Lol so you can only judge how bad the Jak trade has been, based off some hypothetical return if he even gets traded? Holy ever loving ****, this is a new level of copium.

It is a bad trade, plenty of people said it was the moment it happened, hindsight is not needed. This is easily the worst trade he has made in his tenure here. Top 3 worst decision as well.

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

[PushDaRock]

Lol so you can only judge how bad the Jak trade has been, based off some hypothetical return if he even gets traded? Holy ever loving ****, this is a new level of copium.

It is a bad trade, plenty of people said it was the moment it happened, hindsight is not needed. This is easily the worst trade he has made in his tenure here. Top 3 worst decision as well.

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

How is it a reach? When you acquire any player, you are factoring in what the potential return for that acquired player could look like in the future if they are to be moved. If that's not something you're looking at, you're doing it wrong.

I don't think not having the number 8 pick in a historically terrible draft is something so devastating that can't be recovered from. It's not the ideal situation and like I said the trade probably wouldn't be made in hindsight but it's not a disaster.

Are you saying none of these playoff teams you're watching could use a player like Poeltl right now? He's on a descending deal where 20m in a year or 2 looks like a real potential bargain with the rising cap if Poeltl maintains this level of play.

[nikster]

No he's not like Zubac, cause zubac isn't elite either. But guess where the clippers are? Cancun. IH and Robinson are a good duo at C, neither of them has to be elite, the knicks always have a good shot blocking presence on the court. They can afford to be good by committee.

Okay but the guy said you have to have a good 3 point shooter or an elite shot blocker at Centrebut about half the playoff/play in teams don't, including 3 teams still remaining (and Clippers and Heat suffered major injuries to their stars,how could their elimination possibly be an indictment of their C rotation?)

It's just a lazy argument

So you think taking a victory lap that the majority of the teams you are referencing as not having/needing those being out of the playoffs is a smart argument?

Knicks again, have very good shot blocking by committee. They also have 5 guys shooting about 40% or higher in the playoffs. Hence 3pt shooting from their C spot not being integral.

The Mavs have a top 3-5 player in the NBA with Luka, and Kyrie shooting out of his mind.

And there is no third. So 2 teams don't have explicit elite 3pt shooting or shot blocking, but compensate for it heavily elsewhere. But lets ignore the other 6 that do.

The whole argument against Jak at the time of the trade and now, is that we don't have a team that can compensate for his massive limitations. How is this so difficult to follow?

Yeah with all his strengths I don't see his lack of shooting as a massive limitation and clearly its not unusual to build a playoff team with a player like Yak in the rotation.

Cleveland starts Jarett Allen (when healthy). That's 3 of the 8 teams remaining. All I'm saying is it's neither unusual or unfeasible to make a playoff team with a player like him, even in today's 3 point shooting league

[JB7]

And I don't know why people can't seem to understand that the opportunity cost extends well beyond the 8th pick in a weak draft.

It has limited our flexibility, it massively devalued our 2023 pick, it cost us a future pick, and has us mired in mediocrity.

Masai himself has literally called the trade a mistake, and you people are still out here defending it. Unbelievable.

Ok, I get it. We are just on opposite sides here of how to build this team out. You are clearly thinking the Wiz/Pistons approach, which is tear it down, suck for many years, and hope you luck into a generational talent. And any trade that moves the team away from the bottom of the league, is a bad move. Of course that approach has worked out well for so many teams. I would remined you that OKC's generational star was acquired through a trade, and Denver's generational star was a 2nd round pick. Otherwise we are hoping we are lucky to land the 1st pick in a year a Jordan, Shaq, Lebron or Wemby becomes available, which is like once a decade.

I on the other hand actually prefer the approach Masai has taken, to try and develop a competitive team, where young players can grow and develop, and then strategically tank if the opportunity presents itself (bubble year where they got lucky with the 4th pick, and this year where they were unlucky and didn't end up with a top 4 pick).

All I have called for, over and over again, is 2 years of outright tanking. Not a decade of it. Your approach of growing and developing only works when you have legit talent. We have a team devoid of any high level talent outside of Scottie. I'm not suggesting you tank until you get a generational talent, and I never have. I suggested you tank to get a solid core of very good young players, develop them and flip them into better pieces in the future. If you luck into a wemby, then you are golden.

This isn't a zero sum game, it's giving you the best chance at succeeding. You claim you want the Masai approach, yet that was built off the back of MULTIPLE top 10 picks that were good, but not great, and got flipped into better players.

You're not asking for that, you're asking for more mediocrity disguised as being competitive. You know who was "competitive"? The FVV/Siakam/OG core. The same one people have been clamouring to break up for years cause the ceiling is a 2nd round exit. And what happened? We let one walk, we got a trash return for another, and the only reason we got a good return for the third, is due to connections to the team they went to.

Again, Masai admitted the Jak trade was a mistake. He admitted he became too attached to his players and it backfired. How is it, that Masai, the person you are trying so very hard to defend and claim is doing it correctly, came out and publicly stated that he screwed up?

Like what more do you need to recognize that, that route, didn't work. And it's time to try something else. Unless you think our entire success hinges on another once in a lifetime pandemic or 2 players randomly getting freak season ending injuries within 2 days of each other? Being opportunistic has failed over and over again for years now, it's time to be proactive and not let the rest of the league dictate what we do.

And I'm the one relying on luck.

So two years of outright tanking gets you two picks, of which the quality is undetermined. And are you trying to target being one of the 4 worst teams in the league for those 2 years, to get the highest chance at a top 4 pick? Because if so, the teams they are competing with are the Wiz, Blazers, Pistons, and Hornets. These are all teams that finished lower than the Raps this season, a season in which the Raps completely threw away the last third of the season.

So to get to that level of ineptitude, outside of trading Barnes, they would need to dump Yak (a 9th overall pick), Barrett (a 3rd overall pick) and Quickley (a 25th pick), and then ask Barnes to sit for 50% of the season for two years (while promising to pay him a max contract). All that for the benefit of 2 higher draft picks, plus whatever they get in return for the three players traded, which are going to be all lower level picks. But once they trade those 3, they are sucking for more than 2 years.

It is a choice. Either you are choosing to be at the bottom of the league for multiple years, or you are trying to be competitive, and then letting fate determine tanking years.

What you are missing is that with the current competitive structure in the NBA, with the play-in games, it doesn't take much at the end of the season to tank hard and get a chance at a much better pick. The Raps threw away the last third of this season and were possibly one ping pong ball away from a top 4 pick. Had Barnes & Yak not got injured, they also could have made a bit of a run. That is the flexibility the current league offers.

The Raps own all of their FRPs going forward, plus an Indy one. They are going to have the ability to add young talent, even without tanking hard. And if a season goes off the rails, they have the ability to pivot and tank hard.

And to add, the Raps are not the only team employing this strategy. Memphis did it this year due to injury, Utah did it through the trade deadline again, and you could argue SAS as well, that they chose to slow play Wemby at the start of the season, to improve their odds for a high pick.

[Shakril]

Ok, I get it. We are just on opposite sides here of how to build this team out. You are clearly thinking the Wiz/Pistons approach, which is tear it down, suck for many years, and hope you luck into a generational talent. And any trade that moves the team away from the bottom of the league, is a bad move. Of course that approach has worked out well for so many teams. I would remined you that OKC's generational star was acquired through a trade, and Denver's generational star was a 2nd round pick. Otherwise we are hoping we are lucky to land the 1st pick in a year a Jordan, Shaq, Lebron or Wemby becomes available, which is like once a decade.

I on the other hand actually prefer the approach Masai has taken, to try and develop a competitive team, where young players can grow and develop, and then strategically tank if the opportunity presents itself (bubble year where they got lucky with the 4th pick, and this year where they were unlucky and didn't end up with a top 4 pick).

All I have called for, over and over again, is 2 years of outright tanking. Not a decade of it. Your approach of growing and developing only works when you have legit talent. We have a team devoid of any high level talent outside of Scottie. I'm not suggesting you tank until you get a generational talent, and I never have. I suggested you tank to get a solid core of very good young players, develop them and flip them into better pieces in the future. If you luck into a wemby, then you are golden.

This isn't a zero sum game, it's giving you the best chance at succeeding. You claim you want the Masai approach, yet that was built off the back of MULTIPLE top 10 picks that were good, but not great, and got flipped into better players.

You're not asking for that, you're asking for more mediocrity disguised as being competitive. You know who was "competitive"? The FVV/Siakam/OG core. The same one people have been clamouring to break up for years cause the ceiling is a 2nd round exit. And what happened? We let one walk, we got a trash return for another, and the only reason we got a good return for the third, is due to connections to the team they went to.

Again, Masai admitted the Jak trade was a mistake. He admitted he became too attached to his players and it backfired. How is it, that Masai, the person you are trying so very hard to defend and claim is doing it correctly, came out and publicly stated that he screwed up?

Like what more do you need to recognize that, that route, didn't work. And it's time to try something else. Unless you think our entire success hinges on another once in a lifetime pandemic or 2 players randomly getting freak season ending injuries within 2 days of each other? Being opportunistic has failed over and over again for years now, it's time to be proactive and not let the rest of the league dictate what we do.

And I'm the one relying on luck.

So two years of outright tanking gets you two picks, of which the quality is undetermined. And are you trying to target being one of the 4 worst teams in the league for those 2 years, to get the highest chance at a top 4 pick? Because if so, the teams they are competing with are the Wiz, Blazers, Pistons, and Hornets. These are all teams that finished lower than the Raps this season, a season in which the Raps completely threw away the last third of the season.

So to get to that level of ineptitude, outside of trading Barnes, they would need to dump Yak (a 9th overall pick), Barrett (a 3rd overall pick) and Quickley (a 25th pick), and then ask Barnes to sit for 50% of the season for two years (while promising to pay him a max contract). All that for the benefit of 2 higher draft picks, plus whatever they get in return for the three players traded, which are going to be all lower level picks. But once they trade those 3, they are sucking for more than 2 years.

It is a choice. Either you are choosing to be at the bottom of the league for multiple years, or you are trying to be competitive, and then letting fate determine tanking years.

What you are missing is that with the current competitive structure in the NBA, with the play-in games, it doesn't take much at the end of the season to tank hard and get a chance at a much better pick. The Raps threw away the last third of this season and were possibly one ping pong ball away from a top 4 pick. Had Barnes & Yak not got injured, they also could have made a bit of a run. That is the flexibility the current league offers.

The Raps own all of their FRPs going forward, plus an Indy one. They are going to have the ability to add young talent, even without tanking hard. And if a season goes off the rails, they have the ability to pivot and tank hard.

And to add, the Raps are not the only team employing this strategy. Memphis did it this year due to injury, Utah did it through the trade deadline again, and you could argue SAS as well, that they chose to slow play Wemby at the start of the season, to improve their odds for a high pick.

This is what Tankers dont understand. They believe that getting 2 or even 3 picks saves the Franchise and completly ignore everthing else that goes into rebuilding a team. Look what OKC did, most of their rebuild came through trades not through their own picks.

On top of it, Raptors played the last 2 Seasons worse than the talent they have would suggest. Is anyone here, that believes that a core of Barnes, IQ, RJ, Poeltl and Dick will win less than 20 games? Cause thats what is necessary to have a top pick. And even than, you have to pray to the Lottery Gods, that you dont fall out of the top picks like it happened to the Pistons 2 years in a row.

[JB7]

Lol so you can only judge how bad the Jak trade has been, based off some hypothetical return if he even gets traded? Holy ever loving ****, this is a new level of copium.

It is a bad trade, plenty of people said it was the moment it happened, hindsight is not needed. This is easily the worst trade he has made in his tenure here. Top 3 worst decision as well.

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

If you had a choice between Turner and Yak, who would you pick?

Turner and Yak are both 28 (160 days separating birth), Yak is signed for 3 more years at $19.5M, while Turner has one more year at $19.9M.

[Chandan]

Okay but the guy said you have to have a good 3 point shooter or an elite shot blocker at Centrebut about half the playoff/play in teams don't, including 3 teams still remaining (and Clippers and Heat suffered major injuries to their stars,how could their elimination possibly be an indictment of their C rotation?)

It's just a lazy argument

So you think taking a victory lap that the majority of the teams you are referencing as not having/needing those being out of the playoffs is a smart argument?

Knicks again, have very good shot blocking by committee. They also have 5 guys shooting about 40% or higher in the playoffs. Hence 3pt shooting from their C spot not being integral.

The Mavs have a top 3-5 player in the NBA with Luka, and Kyrie shooting out of his mind.

And there is no third. So 2 teams don't have explicit elite 3pt shooting or shot blocking, but compensate for it heavily elsewhere. But lets ignore the other 6 that do.

The whole argument against Jak at the time of the trade and now, is that we don't have a team that can compensate for his massive limitations. How is this so difficult to follow?

Yeah with all his strengths I don't see his lack of shooting as a massive limitation and clearly its not unusual to build a playoff team with a player like Yak in the rotation.

Cleveland starts Jarett Allen (when healthy). That's 3 of the 8 teams remaining. All I'm saying is it's neither unusual or unfeasible to make a playoff team with a player like him, even in today's 3 point shooting league

Are you talking about this jarrett allen

Watch on YouTube

I'd trade for him with a 2024 FRP with top 3 protection.

[nikster]

So you think taking a victory lap that the majority of the teams you are referencing as not having/needing those being out of the playoffs is a smart argument?

Knicks again, have very good shot blocking by committee. They also have 5 guys shooting about 40% or higher in the playoffs. Hence 3pt shooting from their C spot not being integral.

The Mavs have a top 3-5 player in the NBA with Luka, and Kyrie shooting out of his mind.

And there is no third. So 2 teams don't have explicit elite 3pt shooting or shot blocking, but compensate for it heavily elsewhere. But lets ignore the other 6 that do.

The whole argument against Jak at the time of the trade and now, is that we don't have a team that can compensate for his massive limitations. How is this so difficult to follow?

Yeah with all his strengths I don't see his lack of shooting as a massive limitation and clearly its not unusual to build a playoff team with a player like Yak in the rotation.

Cleveland starts Jarett Allen (when healthy). That's 3 of the 8 teams remaining. All I'm saying is it's neither unusual or unfeasible to make a playoff team with a player like him, even in today's 3 point shooting league

Are you talking about this jarrett allen

Watch on YouTube

I'd trade for him with a 2024 FRP with top 3 protection.

Yes

[brownbobcat]

I'd rather be delusional than stupid. Or at least unable to decipher a post without a narrative playing in your head.

There's nothing for me to decipher, you are clearly and unambiguously saying the Poeltl trade is, was and forever will be a good trade. You're out here broadcasting your own dumb-ass takes, not me.

If Koloko was healthy and playing, we wouldn't be constantly relitigating trading down in the draft. Would we? Not that the Raptors would ever have chosen Kessler, but did he suddenly turn into Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Unfortunately, and through no fault of the Raptors, Koloko can't play in the league. Bad luck. Move on. BTW, Masai never said that the move was a mistake. You're lying about that.

I’m not going to sit here & cry over spilled milk. If it was a mistake, it was a mistake but it was good value for us.

Short of Masai calling himself a dumbass or trashing Poeltl, that's just about as blunt an admission as possible. You don't say that about a trade you think was amazing and would repeat 10 out of 10 times. The Thad trade was a minor mistake (and it has nothing to do with Koloko), it was the Poeltl trade which was the real failure.

If you would trade a locked up Poeltl for Castle - or Knecht (lol) - right now, then "I don't even know where to start" with your delusional thinking. Did you actually watch at least the FInal Four? Sure, it's easy to say now that we should been sellers rather than buyers at the time. I would have been happy with that - depending on the return. But the team HAD looked really good later in the 2021-2022 season, and I understand why Masai wanted to see what it would look like with a legit C. After Masai's post-trade presser, the mood of this board was like - "OK, we get why he did it. Let's move on". But many of you refuse to move on, or keep resurfacing like cockroaches.

This has nothing to do with hindsight, you're calling it a good trade today. You think Poeltl is worth more than the #8 pick and would net a higher return than Siakam. That ain't happening unless Bobby finds a way to trade with himself. And as for all the other rationalizations about needing a legit C, all of it falls apart at the slightest introduction of critical thinking.

- At the very same time, they were fielding offers for Siakam, OG and possibly FVV
- All the accusations of selfishness
- Their struggles in the '23 season went far beyond a C
- They already leaning towards firing Nurse

None of that lends itself to any kind of logic that adding Poelt would fix anything. Most damning of all, the trade was actually a reasonable "success" on the court because they played as well as could be expected with Poeltl. They hit their upside, it's just that the upside was mediocrity.

In mentioning the Pistons and Charlotte, I was explaining why they suck all the time, and contrasting that with the Raptors approach. Once again for you in the back, Scottie is the only all-star so far from the vaunted 2021 draft. We know that the Raptors can draft AND develop (with the help of vets on the roster). That seems to contradict your narrative. Maybe you should change your narrative.

The narrative is that they traded picks when they should have focused on asset accumulation and development. That's based on the facts of what happened. So until the facts change, the narrative stays.

Dick was frequently mocked in the top 10. This is a fact. But if Raptors' pick had been in the 8-12 range in 2023, I'm pretty sure they would have taken Wallace. Will Wallace turn out better than Gradey? Too early to say for sure, but both have talent. OTOH, if we didn't move down in 2022, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have drafted Kessler. At least one commentator, KOC if I recall, had Koloko ranked very close to Kessler. It wouldn't shock me if the Raptors had picked Koloko in the 20s. We needed big man depth. Of course in retrospect we should have kept the pick and drafted Nembhard. But drafts are always crap shoots, especially in the 20s and beyond. And if Koloko could play, he could be really good. There's no certainties with young players, but he definitely showed promise.

All of this is uncertain, and require knowledge of what's actually going on behind the scenes and what deals are being offered. Luck - especially with Koloko - plays a role. So it makes no sense that guys like you speak so definitively and judge so harshly on such matters. It doesn't speak well for you. Are you like this in real life?

Again, it has nothing to do with Koloko or Dick as players. Those were dumb trades the moment they were made.

[will]

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

If you had a choice between Turner and Yak, who would you pick?

Turner and Yak are both 28 (160 days separating birth), Yak is signed for 3 more years at $19.5M, while Turner has one more year at $19.9M.

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

[JB7]

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

If you had a choice between Turner and Yak, who would you pick?

Turner and Yak are both 28 (160 days separating birth), Yak is signed for 3 more years at $19.5M, while Turner has one more year at $19.9M.

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.