To Tank or not to Tank, that is the question

Blade_Runner · Post #31 » by **Blade_Runner** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:19 pm

Yeah - and lipstick on a pig does not make it look attractive. Liking awfulness may work for a game or two, but during a long stretch of losing you can't cover it up with a few highlight reel plays and anticipate getting picks and players for a year or two down the road. Kinda makes your time on the team meaningless and players don't want 'temporary' as part of their career memories. No one likes losing.

Weems · Post #32 » by **Weems** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:23 pm

I just said I liked losing.

raptoradical · Post #33 » by **raptoradical** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:24 pm

Weems wrote:I wish. I wish we could be terrible, but we can't be terrible. We'll have to settle for extremely bad. And extremely bad doesn't get you anywhere. It's extremely painful.

You guys are funny.....like having Bosh would make a world of difference or something. To the wizards with their crystal balls, we've never had a team like this, well not as far as I can remember, so how do you just count a team that has the potential to bring heart and athleticism on a nightly basses out so fast? I'd like to look at us as the dark horse. All we need is like one more trade, make good with the TPE and we have a complete team.

Weems · Post #34 » by **Weems** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:34 pm

Losing Bosh was excellent. Was last season not extremely painful? This offseason was progress.

Peteros · Post #35 » by **Peteros** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:44 pm

How can you be exciting and terrible at the same time?? :hoop:

Orsk · Post #36 » by **Orsk** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:23 pm

Losing Bosh was excellent. Was last season not extremely painful? This offseason was progress.

I agree. Losing Bosh was a blessing in disguise. Sure, he is a great baller (some may argue that) but come on, part of the reason he was good, is because the team fed him the ball, and everything HAD to go through him! Clearly it wasn't working out, so something had to change. Everyone keeps saying we need to lose to take one step backwards two steps forwards, but wasn't losing Bosh one step backwards, then getting rid of Hedo, and netting our new talent (Barbosa, Kleiza and ED) two steps forward?

Even if this team sucks this year, (which I think people on this board are overestimating) we now have room to grow, and aren't limited by pushing it through Bosh. Either way, I didn't like watching bosh sit with the ball for 15 seconds every time on offence, while everyone else sat around waiting to see what happened, and then come up with some lame excuse when we lose as to how it was not his fault, that's not what I want to watch every night.

dagger · Post #37 » by **dagger** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:26 pm

Hasheem Thabeet, Dwight Gooden, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, Marvin Wright, Adam Morrison, Darius Miles, Skita and many more top 5 picks who were outright busts or mediocre players say HI!

If we get a top 5 pick, okay, but there is no risk free outcome. So it's best not to cheer to be terrible, but accept it only if it happens.

MEDIC · Post #38 » by **MEDIC** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:36 pm

Orsk wrote:
Losing Bosh was excellent. Was last season not extremely painful? This offseason was progress.

I agree. Losing Bosh was a blessing in disguise. Sure, he is a great baller (some may argue that) but come on, part of the reason he was good, is because the team fed him the ball, and everything HAD to go through him! Clearly it wasn't working out, so something had to change. Everyone keeps saying we need to lose to take one step backwards two steps forwards, but wasn't losing Bosh one step backwards, then getting rid of Hedo, and netting our new talent (Barbosa, Kleiza and ED) two steps forward?

Even if this team sucks this year, (which I think people on this board are overestimating) we now have room to grow, and aren't limited by pushing it through Bosh. Either way, I didn't like watching bosh sit with the ball for 15 seconds every time on offence, while everyone else sat around waiting to see what happened, and then come up with some lame excuse when we lose as to how it was not his fault, that's not what I want to watch every night.

Couldn't agree more. The last few years (minus the Garbo year) were painful to watch. I was so sick of "Bosh ball".

gtswish · Post #39 » by **gtswish** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:47 pm

dagger wrote:Hasheem Thabeet, Dwight Gooden, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, Marvin Wright, Adam Morrison, Darius Miles, Skita and many more top 5 picks who were outright busts or mediocre players say HI!

If we get a top 5 pick, okay, but there is no risk free outcome. So it's best not to cheer to be terrible, but accept it only if it happens.

adam morrison got 2 championships... how much do chris paul, lebron & everyone else got ????................................ esactly

lol im jus playin but this year looks like some pretty good players, i Actually think harrison barnes might end up being a bust but Kyrie Irving and Perry Jones look like they can be all stars , i say trade Bargs to minnisota or sac for their first rounder and we get both these players

also jay williams would of been a good player hadnt it been for the accident

jay williams would of been good if he didnt get into the accident.

Orsk · Post #40 » by **Orsk** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:55 pm

There have also been plenty of players who were not top 5 picks who have turned out to be superstars, and LOTS of top 5 picks who haven't.

Top 5 Pick Busts - Just to name a few
Darko Milicic 2nd (2003)
Kwame Brown 1st (2001)
Stromile Swift 2nd (2000)
Jay Williams 2nd (2002)
(some people would add Bargs to this list, but all these guys are much worse)

Draft Steals -
Amare Stoudemire 9th (2002)
Steve Nash - 15th (1996)
Kobe Bryant - 13th (1996)
Rajon Rondo - 21st (2006)

2nd round Steals -
Michael Redd - 2nd round, 43rd (2000)
Gilbert Arenas - 2nd round, 31st (2001)

Can't be bothered naming more, I got sick of typing, but there are many many more in all of these categories,

But I think this shows my point, you can get an amazing player just as easily from a top 10-15 pick, as you can a top 5 (sometimes more likely). All sorts of good players slip for various reasons, players like DD and Ed could be such players (probably not the likes of Nash or Kobe, but still good). Only time will tell....

Crazy-Canuck · Post #41 » by **Crazy-Canuck** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:03 pm

IM just ready to enjoy watching basketball again. We have young guys playing with nothing to lose and something to prove.

Last year was frustrating because the expectations were high and the effort just wasnt there. Too many players put themselves ahead of the team.

Im looking forward to the season. I want to see how Bargs handles the torch, if Derozen is ready to take the next step, if JJ can impose his will in the locker room, if Amir goes out and plays the way the BC thinks he can, if Klieza can play with the same form as he's shown during FIBA's etc....

Its gonna be a fun year and cant wait till it gets started.

lobosloboslobos · Post #42 » by **lobosloboslobos** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:10 pm

Double Helix wrote: You need to have multiple can't miss prospects and then a bunch of complimentary players with big upside and they all need to be playing together quickly and becoming friends during those crucial rookie-contract impressionable years...

Oh and you forgot: avoid all serious injuries to key players for many years. So make sure you stay away from "can't miss prospects" like #1 picks Oden and Griffin.

Great plan. I totally like it. Here are a few others I like, each of which is about as easy to achieve as yours:

Go BC!

Actually, now that I think of it, we could also trade away all of our players for high draft picks and MLSE could sign some of us RealGMers to play for the Raps. We'd cost way less, so the team could save up money for later, plus we'd get to live out our dreams. And then we use all those draft picks to select multiple can't miss prospects who will become lifelong friends and bring us championships! it's a win-win-win situation!

Indiana Jones · Post #43 » by **Indiana Jones** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:18 pm

i would be psyched if our young guys played big minutes, but i have a feeling davis and alabi will hardly see the floor, in favor on anderson and reggie evans....

Inception · Post #44 » by **Inception** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:21 pm

I'm a little baffled because it seems like half the people here feel as if tanking the season is the solution to all of our problems. They act like it's foolproof and the obvious thing to do because it's worked so often in the past... right??

First off, it's called the "lottery" for a reason. Every year there are teams that compete for the worst record and every year the majority of those teams get screwed. Secondly, just because you're trying to suck doesn't mean you're automatically the worst team in the league. On the one hand, our team is too talented to be the worst and while it's easy for us as fans to cheer for losses, it's completely different from the players perspective. A losing season can be extremely disheartening and I imagine it'd be very difficult to swallow your pride and intentionally lose. We're talking about pro athletes that are competing for minutes, contracts and fame. Unless the coaches make adjustments with the intent of setting us back, I just don't see us finishing with the worst record. And if that does happen, what's that going to do for morale? Will the addition of one stud rookie all of a sudden change our team mentality? These guys want to win, the coaches want to win and I'm pretty sure that the general manager knows that tanking is a huge gamble.

How often does it REALLY work? Let's see...

2009/2010 - The Nets and the Timberwolves tanked, both teams finished with 15 or less wins in the "John Wall Sweepstakes" and neither ended up with the first. In fact, BOTH teams fell two spots and ended up with 3rd and 4th. The Nets were banking on getting Wall and then using that to convince a big time free agent like Lebron to sign with the team and none of that worked out. The funny (and scary) part is that if you ever went to the Nets RealGM boards last year every other thread was about Wall and fans were actually cheering for losses. Sounds familiar...

2008/2009 - The Kings, Wizards and Clippers all have the worst record with under 20 wins. On draft night the Clips jumped from 3rd pick to 1st and the Kings and Wizards fell to 4th and 5th. Hmmm...

2007/2008 - The Heat, Sonics and Grizzlies have the worst records (in that order) and the Bulls come out of nowhere to win the first pick, pushing the rest of the teams down.

2006/2007 - Grizzlies, Celtics and Bucks all tanked for Oden/Durant and each of them fell three spots to pick 4th, 5th and 6th. The Celtics bounced back because they were able to trade their picks and youth for Allen and Garnett but that's the type of trade that only a team like Boston (or LA) can pull off. Had that not work they'd still be fighting for lottery balls.

2005/2006 - The Blazers, Knicks and Bobcats tanked and we jumped from 5th to get the 1st pick, pushing everyone else down a notch.

This is getting repetitive so for the sake of saving myself some time... the last time that the worst place team landed the first pick was in 2004 when the Magic ended up with Dwight. That's six years ago and if you look at draft history since then the majority of the teams that have been in the lottery have stayed there year in and year out, with the exceptions being Oklahoma City and Portland. But those teams didn't turn it around with one star... they've built through the draft over the course of several years.

The only legitimate reason I can see for tanking is the potential of landing two high picks in a row if the lockout ends up happening. That's assuming that league determines draft order in the lockout year based on standings over the past several seasons. But again that's also a gamble and I doubt BC goes that route.

Tanking reminds me of a silly get rich quick scheme. Most of the time it doesn't work and it won't turn our fortunes around in one season. And finally, BC knows this and there's no way he's going to push his team to lose. If we lose because we suck that's one thing but to lose intentionally... not gonna happen. And unfortunately (or fortunately), we don't suck as bad as some of the crappier teams in the league.

Post #45 » by **theSkinny** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:25 pm

see sig.

Inception · Post #46 » by **Inception** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:28 pm

I spent a lot of time on this and figured it deserved it's own thread instead of getting lost in the middle of a bunch of other posts

dagger · Post #47 » by **dagger** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:41 pm

Inception wrote:I spent a lot of time on this and figured it deserved it's own thread instead of getting lost in the middle of a bunch of other posts

The fact you spent a lot of time on it doesn't mean it deserves its own thread and shouldn't be used in another thread as a rebuttal. It's basically the answer to the thread on why we should be thrilled with an awful team.

Inception · Post #48 » by **Inception** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:47 pm

I get what you're saying but that same thread about us being awful could have gone in one of the hundred other threads about the same thing. And same goes for any stat of the day thread or any twitter thread, right? How is that distinction made? Does it depend on who's posting it?

In my opinion, I don't see why it's a problem to have a thread like this during the summer when there's nothing to talk about. A lot of threads with one line and very little thought end up staying open. Anyway, if it's that big of a deal you can merge it with the other one but to me it's a huge double standard when I look at some of the other threads that do stay open.

kem416 · Post #49 » by **kem416** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:50 pm

springz wrote:anyone else hoping for an Amir Johnson career-ending knee injury 10 games into the season?

You're an idiot. Ban this fool.
:nonono:

Scott Carefoot · Post #50 » by **Scott Carefoot** » Mon Sep 6, 2010 3:51 pm

It's not tanking if the team is legitimately bad. And just because you don't get the first overall pick, that doesn't mean you're not getting a potential All-Star. DeMarcus Cousins went fifth in the last draft and I think he could end up being the best player out of that draft class.