SOTD: All Stats from Phoenix game

[Clutch Carter]

Regarding Barg's shot, I noticed last night that he has two fingers taped up and was icing that hand on the bench. Read into that what you will.

Thanks for the stats Borris.

[Clutch Carter]

I don't think Bargs looked all that good defensively. And I'm one of the few here that actually thinks he's underrated as a defender. Flat-out not aggressive enough.

It's more important to be positioned correctly than to be "aggressive". Maybe a guard can get up into the grill of a ball-handler, but if a help defender is in the right position to cut off a drive, intimidate a shot, etc, he's done a better job than a big who jumps out at someone "aggressively" and can't recover when the ball moves to another opponent. It's the old story, though. Bargnani will only win on this board when he is an all-star, no, a superstar on both sides of the ball. Otherwise, his game will be cherry-picked apart. Yes, he played good D last night. Will he keep it up? I can't say. But we know his offence will come around, yet some posters took incredible comfort in the fact he was 1-9 from the field.

For these posters, it's more important that Bargnani fails than succeeds.

That pretty much sums it up right there. Sad but true.

[pegcity]

I don't think Bargs looked all that good defensively. And I'm one of the few here that actually thinks he's underrated as a defender. Flat-out not aggressive enough.

It's more important to be positioned correctly than to be "aggressive". Maybe a guard can get up into the grill of a ball-handler, but if a help defender is in the right position to cut off a drive, intimidate a shot, etc, he's done a better job than a big who jumps out at someone "aggressively" and can't recover when the ball moves to another opponent. It's the old story, though. Bargnani will only win on this board when he is an all-star, no, a superstar on both sides of the ball. Otherwise, his game will be cherry-picked apart. Yes, he played good D last night. Will he keep it up? I can't say. But we know his offence will come around, yet some posters took incredible comfort in the fact he was 1-9 from the field.

For these posters, it's more important that Bargnani fails than succeeds.

Amen dagger

[BorisDK1]

second the call for google docs spreadsheet

I've tried that before. Google docs doesn't like my spreadsheet because it's a huge file (the spreadsheet is almost 150 columns). This format allows me to put in the explanations for all the stats and keep it in a neat presentation, and .pdf is an easy, universal format that everybody can use. Even if Google docs did work, I simply don't have the time to be making secondary formats for everybody on a whim when there is a workable format available. I have too many other time commitments at home, at school and at work to chase my tail like that.

[BorisDK1]

I can live with this is if the other result is more TOs created and better defense at the 3pt line. The Raps needed a big improvement in both areas and I think that's a tradeoff I can live with.

I think Jay isn't so concerned about the results right now: I think he wants them playing hard, and has chosen a defensive philosophy of up-the-line/on-the-line all-out denial to get guys being aggressive. After the past two years of exceptionally passive play, I wholeheartedly support what he's trying to do. But there are numerous conceptual flaws with what they're doing, especially by attempting to overplay the point-to-wing pass. For instance, if he wants the ball out of the middle and on a side (and he does), why is he denying that pass? He wants the ball on the side, but won't allow a pass to get the ball onto the side? Completely self-contradictory and, all too often, a waste of a time and effort.

But yet, I can see where he wants to go and he's probably not thinking this is going to be his long-term doctrine. He just wants the guys playing hard and playing aggressive for now and probably a year or so down the line we'll get something a tad more reasonable. And I 100% support that, and I think Jay's silencing a lot of critics who said he doesn't care about the defense, or he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he isn't a good enough disciplinarian or motivator, etc. Good for him. I think he's doing exactly what he needs to be doing. There is going to be a short-term price to pay for all that, but hopefully far more long-term benefits.

[Ripp]

no worries, google docs are just nice cuz then you don't have to download...can just click and view. Anyway, no big deal

[Anatomize]

One of the major mistakes I was unhappy with from Bargs was the play where he was deep in the corner posted up on Turkoglu, Turkoglu makes the right play by reaching over to one side to deny an entry pass and leaving the other side open so a help defender will trap; Bargnani turns into Robin Lopez and gets caught in a double team and nearly turns the ball over as Turkoglu attempts to chase down the ball out of bounds.

Bargnani was double teamed pretty consistently last year in the post and in FIBA, you would think he should have learned not to turn baseline on a post up when you're that far out; likewise, our team should have warned him that a help defender is coming over and to get the ball out as quickly as possible for an open shot.

[OvertimeNO]

One of the major mistakes I was unhappy with from Bargs was the play where he was deep in the corner posted up on Turkoglu, Turkoglu makes the right play by reaching over to one side to deny an entry pass and leaving the other side open so a help defender will trap; Bargnani turns into Robin Lopez and gets caught in a double team and nearly turns the ball over as Turkoglu attempts to chase down the ball out of bounds.

Bargnani was double teamed pretty consistently last year in the post and in FIBA, you would think he should have learned not to turn baseline on a post up when you're that far out; likewise, our team should have warned him that a help defender is coming over and to get the ball out as quickly as possible for an open shot.

FIBA, yes. Last year not so much - at least not how I remember it. This year that will most likely change, although there are posters here who would tell you that Bargnani will never be doubled because other teams don't consider him a threat in the post.

[Eating a Book]

I can live with this is if the other result is more TOs created and better defense at the 3pt line. The Raps needed a big improvement in both areas and I think that's a tradeoff I can live with.

I think Jay isn't so concerned about the results right now: I think he wants them playing hard, and has chosen a defensive philosophy of up-the-line/on-the-line all-out denial to get guys being aggressive. After the past two years of exceptionally passive play, I wholeheartedly support what he's trying to do. But there are numerous conceptual flaws with what they're doing, especially by attempting to overplay the point-to-wing pass. For instance, if he wants the ball out of the middle and on a side (and he does), why is he denying that pass? He wants the ball on the side, but won't allow a pass to get the ball onto the side? Completely self-contradictory and, all too often, a waste of a time and effort.

But yet, I can see where he wants to go and he's probably not thinking this is going to be his long-term doctrine. He just wants the guys playing hard and playing aggressive for now and probably a year or so down the line we'll get something a tad more reasonable. And I 100% support that, and I think Jay's silencing a lot of critics who said he doesn't care about the defense, or he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he isn't a good enough disciplinarian or motivator, etc. Good for him. I think he's doing exactly what he needs to be doing. There is going to be a short-term price to pay for all that, but hopefully far more long-term benefits.

Phase two of this will be when we're giving up important offensive boards and the guys are understanding why. If Jay can keep them consistent and aggressive for the whole of the season, it'll be a major coup. It'll be an interesting little side story next to what I'm hoping are very entertaining and competitive losses.

[Gang of Four]

Our rebounding didn't look good. Phoenix is not a good rebounding team at all, and I think they got 3 or 4 O-boards off missed free throws. Aside from Dorsey, no one really had an impact, and I expect he won't play much.

Impact? Dorsey mostly played against third string players in a meaningless game after the outcome had already been decided.

[elmer_yuck]

Our rebounding didn't look good. Phoenix is not a good rebounding team at all, and I think they got 3 or 4 O-boards off missed free throws. Aside from Dorsey, no one really had an impact, and I expect he won't play much.

Impact? Dorsey mostly played against third string players in a meaningless game after the outcome had already been decided.

So let's see how Dorsey does against first string players when the outcome hasn't yet been decided.

[ThatClockWork]

thank you for doing this.

Albeit Bargnani shot 1-8 from the floor, the most important fact is that the majority of the shots he took were good shots, shots that he can easily hit. As for his defense, he was moving his feet and keeping his man in front of him, however he still looked lost on the boards. Hopeful for continual signs of improvement as the season shifts forward

[J-Roc]

Our rebounding didn't look good. Phoenix is not a good rebounding team at all, and I think they got 3 or 4 O-boards off missed free throws. Aside from Dorsey, no one really had an impact, and I expect he won't play much.

Impact? Dorsey mostly played against third string players in a meaningless game after the outcome had already been decided.

So let's see how Dorsey does against first string players when the outcome hasn't yet been decided.

We won't get many of those opportunities this year. And even when we do, Joey will be an afterthought. I imagine him specifically coming in to fight back the likes of D12 and Bogut.

[JJWong17]

So let's see how Dorsey does against first string players when the outcome hasn't yet been decided.

We won't get many of those opportunities this year. And even when we do, Joey will be an afterthought. I imagine him specifically coming in to fight back the likes of D12 and Bogut.

Yeah Dwight eats Bargnani alive for very obvious reasons but Bogut, from what I remember, really seems to have his number too. Like a bigger, meaner version of him that is more accomplished in the post and less so at longer ranges.

[LLJ]

So basically any centre that's better than average will have his number.

I really don't see anything about Bargnani on Wednesday that's any different than before. He played good D and shot like crap. So? He had several games like that last year. The man simply cannot play one end without the other suffering.

[Boogie!]

I don't think Bargs looked all that good defensively. And I'm one of the few here that actually thinks he's underrated as a defender. Flat-out not aggressive enough.

idk, I thought bargs was really aggressive on d. he was trying to contest every shot and did a good job stopping penetration. i was really dissappointed with his offense though. but i remember last pre-season, when he seemed un-involved and then suddenly the season came and there were a few new plays they had to get him the ball. i'm thinking it's gonna be the same this season. they're probably not gonna reveal their actual offensive schemes until the season starts and i think he's gonna be more of a focal point. i was surprised that phoenix was doubling him that hard every time he got the ball in the post though.

[Boogie!]

So basically any centre that's better than average will have his number.

I really don't see anything about Bargnani on Wednesday that's any different than before. He played good D and shot like crap. So? He had several games like that last year. The man simply cannot play one end without the other suffering.

that's a lie. there were many times last season where he would put up 20 points and do a good job defensively, all while having tough if not the toughest defensive assignments. the magic, spurs and lakers games come to mind off the top of my head..

[LLJ]

So basically any centre that's better than average will have his number.

I really don't see anything about Bargnani on Wednesday that's any different than before. He played good D and shot like crap. So? He had several games like that last year. The man simply cannot play one end without the other suffering.

that's a lie. there were many times last season where he would put up 20 points and do a good job defensively, all while having tough if not the toughest defensive assignments. the magic, spurs and lakers games come to mind off the top of my head..

There are also a ton of games where he played good D and shot horribly (and rebounded horribly as well).

Aside from last December, I don't think he's ever consistently played well on both ends for a particularly extended stretch of the schedule.

[Boogie!]

So basically any centre that's better than average will have his number.

I really don't see anything about Bargnani on Wednesday that's any different than before. He played good D and shot like crap. So? He had several games like that last year. The man simply cannot play one end without the other suffering.

that's a lie. there were many times last season where he would put up 20 points and do a good job defensively, all while having tough if not the toughest defensive assignments. the magic, spurs and lakers games come to mind off the top of my head..

There are also a ton of games where he played good D and shot horribly (and rebounded horribly as well).

Aside from last December, I don't think he's ever consistently played well on both ends for a particularly extended stretch of the schedule.

the original statement i pointed out is still a lie. and i disagree with your last statement. our defense was horrible as a whole. bargnani cannot be singled out. look at how good our defense looked against phoenix when EVERYONE was being aggressive. suddenly bargnani looks like he's in the right spot every time.

[LLJ]

Sure, if you want to be particular it is a "lie". Although quite frankly nothing can be a lie in here since everything is an opinion. Even if I said "The Sky is Yellow" it could be seen as an opinion. Sure, maybe nobody else sees it, but it's not like I'm writing an encyclopedia here, therefore it is an opinion.

I still think my statement is a valid opinion. I've rarely seen Bargnani play well on both ends. Even in the "wins" you mentioned, it's not like we played really good D to win. As you said, we never played good D anyway, ergo there's no way we could have won games with good D.

I agree with you the team as a whole sucked on D. I could pick on Bosh, Turk, Jack, Jose, DD as well. But since this offshoot is about Bargs, I'm talking about his game in particular.