Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[Rhettmatic]

As March Madness rages, we have our fifth NBA draft discussion thread.

Here are the other three threads:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1056803
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1087333
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1093590
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1100716

And the rules:

All thoughts on 2011 draft prospects and potential Raptors picks can go in this thread. After the draft lottery, it'll also be home to all mock-draft discussion and other fun.

Did Kyrie Irving have a sick crossover? Post it here. Did Jan Vesely drop 27 points on Crvena zvezda? Discuss it here. Are you having panic attacks because the Raptors just hired Donatas Motiejunas's father as their head scout? Seek medical help here.

We've got a few links here to NBA draft websites but please feel free to post more or PM a mod if you want more added.

Enjoy!

- The Mod Squad

Draft Express
NBADraft.net
ESPN Draft Base

[Rhettmatic]

Just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle... final post of the last thread:

Here's a mock draft that actually takes into account team needs, but I find it a bit lame on our reasons for taking Perry Jones, i.e. he hits a need now but won't when he develops...

Not that the read on Jones' talent is wrong, I can't say, only the logic advanced here is a bit bizarre.

And Marcus Morris at 6th? This guy must have a boner for Kansas.

http://www.probasketballdraft.com/Mock_Draft.html

[TheRealDeal]

Top Prospect playing tonight:
(w/ draft express rank)

UNC vs. Marquette 7:15 PM

UNC
Harrison Barnes (4)
Kendall Marshall (NR)
John Henson (12)
Tyler Zeller (37)

Richmond vs. Kansas 7:30 PM

KU
Marcus Morris (17)
Markieff Morris (24)
Josh Selby (36)
Thomas Robinson (28)

Richmond
Justin Harper (33)

Ohio State vs. Kentucky 9:45 PM

OSU
Jared Sullinger (2)
William Buford (46)
David Lighty (57)

UK
Terrence Jones (11)
Brandon Knight (8)

Florida State vs. Virginia Commonwealth- 10:00 PM

FSU
Chris Singleton (25)

[Silk Wilkes]

Marcus Morris might be a Paul Millsap type. Don't sleep on his talent. He's a hard worker.

[Steely Reserve]

At this point, if these GMs let Perry Jones III fall out the top 5, they all need to be fired. I'm sure that's not the case because unlike fans, they don't let one game influence their decision making and mostly rely on measurables, because well, measurables are the holy grail of the NBA.... period.

But let's say they did let PJIII fall out the top 5, I'm willing to wager in four years MANY GMs will be fired since i believe the second half of the top 10 will produce better talents than the top half. Let's say the top half of the draft went like:

1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Barnes
4. Walker
5. Sullinger

What have here is an overrated point guard taken #1, a tweener taken #2, a hyped shooter who hasn't consistently shot the ball or been able to create his own offense, Ben Gordon 2.0, and finally a big who is, IMO, a solid prospect but one who is a Center in a Power Forward's body.

From reading the last 20 pages in this thread, the top 5 going like this isn't a far-fetched idea, in fact, it seems rather realistic given how many fans have jumped on various player's bandwagons.

So the bottom 5 of the top 10 could look like this:

6. Perry Jones
7. Jonas V.
8. Brandon Knight
9. Terrance Jones
10. Enes Kanter

You could easily make the argument every one of these player's have a true position in the NBA and have talents that project to the league better than the top 5. You've got three players 6'10 and above, a point guard who measures at 6'3, and a small forward who may be the best defender in the entire draft.

I'm just saying... take a step back. I know Williams and Walker are having great tournaments, but let's breath here. Remember the NBA is a completely different ball game than college. Look inside the game and Williams will have issues at the next level. Same for Irving. The second half of that list have better athletes top to bottom and that's the one trait that definitely transfers at the next level.

[bigdirty]

Makes me wish we could pick up a late top 10 pick somehow to grab Kemba Walker along with Jones, Barnes or Williams.

[Dr Positivity]

Just following up on the Derrick Williams discussion

I am very, VERY wary of trying to teach players a position they didn't play in college or haven't in their life before. This is the mistake drafting teams make over and over again, usually when trying to turn SGs into PGs. There's really 3 positions on the court, there's PG, SG/SF and PF/C. Those 3 are basically completley different and it's hard to just change at this stage in someone's career.

The truth is that Williams entire feel for the court and 'bball IQ' is at the PF position. Move him to SF and he's years behind everyone in knowing what to do at that position. Remember I think this is the biggest reason Bargnani's bball IQ on the defensive and rebounding end as a big is so bad. He was a SF until he was drafted and still plays like one. He never got the foundation reps of playing like a real big

I am just about certain that Williams and Jones III are PFs long term. It's not even like Williams is that undersized. 6'8-6'9 but athletic and strong is just fine.

[TDotRep]

5th page baby yeaaa

[Dr Positivity]

Steely Reserve, very good post and I agree, but with a few observations. I think Irving/Williams/Sullinger are all legit prospects and should not fall out of the top 5 if GMs are smart. Irving's going to be a very good pick and roll PG with his jumpshot, speed and body control. Williams has 21 and 9 written all over him, he's going to be an awesome pick and roll option with his ability to shoot and roll to the basket and finish, like a mini Amare. Sullinger will be great at the most underrated thing in the game (setting awesome picks), is too smart to fail for similar reasons as Kevin Love, and will be one of the game's best rebounders. All 3 are everything you want in terms of character and leadership intangibles. These are easy top 5 picks.

But yeah, any GM who takes Kemba ahead of Jones III, Kanter or Knight needs to be replaced. Planning on putting a 5'11 SG at the 1 long term is planning on more lottery picks. Kemba over Jones III = Foye over Rudy Gay (like Jones III, he had lock #1 talent but lacked the drive). Kemba over Kanter = DJ Augustin over Brook Lopez (just a bad idea take the 5'11 PG over the PF/C with the rare build and skillset of Lopez and Kanter). Kemba over Knight = Flynn over Derozan (Flynn was much better in college and had the spotlight. Demar was clearly the superior talent).

You're better off taking a swing at Jones III or Kanter than someone in the Kemba, DJ, Flynn class where they're almost surely going to be a backup and if they start it'll be as a top 15-20 starter at best. You need everything to be a starter when you're 5'11 and Kemba doesn't have everything, his PG skills are not tremendous and his shot isn't amazing

I also agree Barnes is still overrated. He's closer to Brandon Knight than Williams and Irving as a prospect to me

[ansoncarter]

Makes me wish we could pick up a late top 10 pick somehow to grab Kemba Walker along with Jones, Barnes or Williams.

uhm, we're drafting kemba walker maybe we can get one of those other guys later

24
5
5
0.000001

those are kemba scoring, rb, ast, and last stat is his bust factor. Guy has only 1 in a million chance to bust

[U_Mad]

I really want Barnes along side DD, even if it is Caldy dishing it to him...it could make calderon even more dangerous because he wont have to shoot as much

[Consequence]

Just following up on the Derrick Williams discussion

I am very, VERY wary of trying to teach players a position they didn't play in college or haven't in their life before. This is the mistake drafting teams make over and over again, usually when trying to turn SGs into PGs. There's really 3 positions on the court, there's PG, SG/SF and PF/C. Those 3 are basically completley different and it's hard to just change at this stage in someone's career.

The truth is that Williams entire feel for the court and 'bball IQ' is at the PF position. Move him to SF and he's years behind everyone in knowing what to do at that position. Remember I think this is the biggest reason Bargnani's bball IQ on the defensive and rebounding end as a big is so bad. He was a SF until he was drafted and still plays like one. He never got the foundation reps of playing like a real big

I am just about certain that Williams and Jones III are PFs long term. It's not even like Williams is that undersized. 6'8-6'9 but athletic and strong is just fine.

Williams played the three in HS, from everything that I've heard. Doesn't mean it is his best position, but he does have experience there.

[sunny]

Just following up on the Derrick Williams discussion

I am very, VERY wary of trying to teach players a position they didn't play in college or haven't in their life before. This is the mistake drafting teams make over and over again, usually when trying to turn SGs into PGs. There's really 3 positions on the court, there's PG, SG/SF and PF/C. Those 3 are basically completley different and it's hard to just change at this stage in someone's career.

The truth is that Williams entire feel for the court and 'bball IQ' is at the PF position. Move him to SF and he's years behind everyone in knowing what to do at that position. Remember I think this is the biggest reason Bargnani's bball IQ on the defensive and rebounding end as a big is so bad. He was a SF until he was drafted and still plays like one. He never got the foundation reps of playing like a real big

I am just about certain that Williams and Jones III are PFs long term. It's not even like Williams is that undersized. 6'8-6'9 but athletic and strong is just fine.

Williams played the three in HS, from everything that I've heard. Doesn't mean it is his best position, but he does have experience there.

For Derrick's highschool, La Mirida, he played small forward. For AAU, he played on the same team as Jordan Hamilton who at the time was an even bigger chucker than he is now. As a result, Dwill played off the ball a lot and as a second fiddle. It's hard to define his position because its AAU, but I'd be inclined to say that he played the three there as well.

I apologize if it sounds like I'm hyping Dwill beyond belief, I'm just trying to clarify stuff about him when other people post. Plus, I gotta support my AZ players. (I still dont want to draft him though).

Anyways, I think Perry Jones will stil end up being the best player from this draft. Too many people are taking college play as a basis for rankings when we all know scouts care more about potential/build than anything else really.

There are valid reasons why his stats are not great. Even if he had no excuse, college stats don't mean that much to be honest. I think he will still end up being a top 3 pick. At this moment in time (obviously a lot can still chance), I imagine the top 3 ends up being Dwill, Pjones and Irving and they separate themselves from the bunch.

[OakleyDokely]

I'd still take Perry Jones #1.

He's got the best combination of raw skills, upside, NBA position, production, in the draft imo.

He's a bigger risk than most of the guys around him, but great teams become great because they acquire great players. And I think Perry is one of the few guys in the draft with the potential to be great. There are a lot of good prospects in the draft, but I don't see many great ones.

Is that a realgm record for the most times great was used in a paragraph?

[sunny]

Although Derrick wasn't as good as he is now when he was in HS, the fact that he's not on this list is amazing. It also shows you how horrible Rivals and Scout are. Coast2Coasthoops is opening up very soon and I am very thankful.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball ... /rank-1642

[Brinbe]

Very excited about all the match-ups tonight. Prime prospect watching opportunities.

And right now there are at least ten prospects (Irving/Knight/Barnes/Williams/Kemba/Sullinger/P. Jones/Kanter/Jonas V/T. Jones) I wouldn't mind, so I'm not sure there's any reason to worry. If this FO does their job, we should end up with a capable player in June. (but ugh, watch us draft Donatas )

[OakleyDokely]

My Top 5 (as of now):

1. Perry Jones
2. Irving
3. Barnes
4. Knight
5. Terrence Jones

[baulderdash77]

If it's between Walker and either Perry or Terrence Jones then for me it's Kemba without even thinking about it.

More and more I see star power from him. I think he'll be at least as good as pre-injury TJ Ford but not as good as Iverson. Maybe Damon Stoudamire good.

[CunningLinguist]

Steely Reserve, very good post and I agree, but with a few observations. I think Irving/Williams/Sullinger are all legit prospects and should not fall out of the top 5 if GMs are smart. Irving's going to be a very good pick and roll PG with his jumpshot, speed and body control. Williams has 21 and 9 written all over him, he's going to be an awesome pick and roll option with his ability to shoot and roll to the basket and finish, like a mini Amare. Sullinger will be great at the most underrated thing in the game (setting awesome picks), is too smart to fail for similar reasons as Kevin Love, and will be one of the game's best rebounders. All 3 are everything you want in terms of character and leadership intangibles. These are easy top 5 picks.

But yeah, any GM who takes Kemba ahead of Jones III, Kanter or Knight needs to be replaced. Planning on putting a 5'11 SG at the 1 long term is planning on more lottery picks. Kemba over Jones III = Foye over Rudy Gay (like Jones III, he had lock #1 talent but lacked the drive). Kemba over Kanter = DJ Augustin over Brook Lopez (just a bad idea take the 5'11 PG over the PF/C with the rare build and skillset of Lopez and Kanter). Kemba over Knight = Flynn over Derozan (Flynn was much better in college and had the spotlight. Demar was clearly the superior talent).

You're better off taking a swing at Jones III or Kanter than someone in the Kemba, DJ, Flynn class where they're almost surely going to be a backup and if they start it'll be as a top 15-20 starter at best. You need everything to be a starter when you're 5'11 and Kemba doesn't have everything, his PG skills are not tremendous and his shot isn't amazing

I also agree Barnes is still overrated. He's closer to Brandon Knight than Williams and Irving as a prospect to me

I think more mistakes have been made in the draft taking a big over a small than the other way around.

[sunny]

although im surprised to hear raptor fans aren't more happy with the fact that Kyrie is no longer the number 1 guy in the draft.