Should Bryan Colangelo be Fired

[JN]

Bc is literally the worst GM in sports.

Loria says hi.

Loria is an owner A cheap one.

But his GM, Larry Beinfest, has done pretty good with the limited financial resources given to operate.

[JN]

Speaking of super teams. Which GM candidate is going to deliver us a Raptors "big 3" in 4-5 years. Mail all answers to: General Delivery MLSE 50 Bay St., Suite 500, Toronto ON M5J 2L2

Some markets are harder to win. Doesn't mean that you can't let go of the GM. It's not like BC has not made a bunch of mistakes over the years.

[lucky777s]

Answer me this lucky777s. There is a very proven GM in an adjacent office with a championship under his belt and he has struggled in an eerily similar manner to get traction in so far as being a "winner' is concerned. Do we fire him as well? I think fans are too knee-jerk in assessing what needs to be done without obvious alternatives. Let's face it in the NBA we look like a no tradition expansion franchise so yeah perception is reality in a showtime league. Almost any GM coming here is going to have recruiting issues of that I'm certain.

I am not a big hockey fan. I only really watch some playoff hockey. I do know that Burke brought in a proven #1 scorer even though some critics are very hard on that player. Wasn't he an all-star too. That alone puts him above BC.

Burke came into a total mess in TOR as I recall. BC walked into a nearly perfect scenario with the Raps in comparison. Young all-star, #1 overall pick, loads of cap space, good young assets (at the time) in Jose, Villy, Graham, Roko, Slokar. Not many GMs walk into that great of a situation. Usually you are cleaning up a big mess like Babcock had to do. Babcock did the hard work and took the big hit for doing it.

As for no tradition, I think a lot of young players still remember the VC/TMac days. 12 years ago they would have been 10 or 11 years old. Players also see the fan support in the building and compare it to other cities they play in. If you build a base of young talent and start winning you can attract FAs or trade for stars.

BC has failed. Whatever reasons you may want to concoct for that it is his job to figure out the best way around those obstacles. Develop a strategy that works for a team in our situation. He hasn't done that.

He has made no moves on draft day in 7 years. Other teams make bold moves and get stars. Explain why POR was able to build a winner, why MIN has done better than us, why IND has done better than us, why has MIL done better than us, why BK was able to take a big chance and build a much better team, why the Knicks could get out from the mountain of bad contracts they had and re-shape their roster. Hell, the Clippers reshaped their franchise after being the laughing stock of the league for decades.

There is no legitimate reason that other teams have been able to rebuild and recover from losing their franchise guy, like PHI with Iverson, but not the Raps.

BC does nothing to help this team. No creativity other than finding ways to throw more money at bad players. Everything looks half-assed.

[whysoserious]

Answer me this lucky777s. There is a very proven GM in an adjacent office with a championship under his belt and he has struggled in an eerily similar manner to get traction in so far as being a "winner' is concerned. Do we fire him as well? I think fans are too knee-jerk in assessing what needs to be done without obvious alternatives. Does it suk to be a Toronto sports fan? Yup. Look at the platinum empty seats and you get an idea of what the sports culture of Toronto is. Let's face it in the NBA we look like a no tradition expansion franchise so yeah perception is reality in a showtime league. With our expansion personna I wonder what GM can land established talent when we can't even sign our most favoured son to the most lucrative contract on offer. Almost any GM coming here is going to have recruiting issues of that I'm certain.

One could argue that Burke has been just as much of a failure in Toronto as BC and both should techinically be fired.

Again, the argument of a replacement has no bearing on this discussion. That's a completely separate topic. We can hire someone that's better, equal or worse than BC. But that doesn't mean that BC is not a failure in Toronto. He absolutely is a failure in Toronto. He could go get hired somewhere else and regain his magic and build a winner. But in Toronto he has failed to deliver and gets paid like one of the best GM's in the league.

[JN]

Thanks for cockblocking the Knicks BC...now they're what, 6-0 to start the season?

Ask Miami about the great things BC does. He played a major role in creating cap flexibility for the Super team. Too bad he does F-all for us

No he didn't. Miami already had salaries cleared for that offseason - whether it was Marion or Oneal, they were both expiring - so sending them Oneal made no difference towards their ability to chase James and Bosh.

Taking on Marcus Banks and his $4-5M contract that extended beyond the summer of 2010 certainly did.

They had to use assets to dump Dequan Cook, and had a hard time finding a taker for Beasley. They didn't really have any more assets to use to dump Banks.

I don't remember the entire cap situation --- to be fair I'm not sure if it would have hurt the Big 3 or only the ability to sign Mike Miller.

[Scase]

Answer me this lucky777s. There is a very proven GM in an adjacent office with a championship under his belt and he has struggled in an eerily similar manner to get traction in so far as being a "winner' is concerned. Do we fire him as well? I think fans are too knee-jerk in assessing what needs to be done without obvious alternatives. Does it suk to be a Toronto sports fan? Yup. Look at the platinum empty seats and you get an idea of what the sports culture of Toronto is. Let's face it in the NBA we look like a no tradition expansion franchise so yeah perception is reality in a showtime league. With our expansion personna I wonder what GM can land established talent when we can't even sign our most favoured son to the most lucrative contract on offer. Almost any GM coming here is going to have recruiting issues of that I'm certain.

I'm sorry, did you just suggest that people wanting to fire a bad GM after SEVEN years is a knee-jerk reactionary move? How much longer should we wait on him another 5? 10 maybe? You must be a bargs supporter then.....

Proven? The only thing proven about BC after 7 years here is proof that HE wasn't the proven one in the first place. Jerry seems to have been the one holding the franchise that supposedly marks BC as proven together. This team has systematically gotten worse since he arrived. Period.

You claim we have an expansion persona yet don't want to remove a GM that not only didn't help us shed that persona but in fact reinforced it? Fire or let him drift off into the sunset, there is a large difference. The sooner he is gone the sooner we can get someone else at least attempting to right this ship.

[T-Ross the Boss]

Fire him right now. He drafted Ross and signed Fields all to get Nash and look how it turned out. We should have drafted AD and traded him for Harden.

You sir are delusional if you think we had a shot at Harden.

DeRozan, Drummond for Harden would have easily gone down. Easily.

We'd be looking at Lowry/Harden/Val core. BC sucks.

[Scase]

Fire him right now. He drafted Ross and signed Fields all to get Nash and look how it turned out. We should have drafted AD and traded him for Harden.

You sir are delusional if you think we had a shot at Harden.

DeRozan, Drummond for Harden would have easily gone down. Easily.

We'd be looking at Lowry/Harden/Val core. BC sucks.

Wow you are delusional. Unless you can find a high 1st round pick to throw in there as well you still aren't even close.

[T-Ross the Boss]

Wow you are delusional. Unless you can find a high 1st round pick to throw in there as well you still aren't even close.

Yeah because a scorer comparable to Kevin Martin nowadays and a talent who's much better than Lamb or Jones is so delusional. Or anything they'll get out of our pick.

No one's delusional but you.

[BD12]

Wow you are delusional. Unless you can find a high 1st round pick to throw in there as well you still aren't even close.

Yeah because a scorer comparable to Kevin Martin nowadays and a talent who's much better than Lamb or Jones is so delusional. Or anything they'll get out of our pick.

No one's delusional but you.

Sorry but I agree with Scase. Why would they have agreed to a trade for TWO unproven players (especially a shooting guard that can't shoot) and no draft picks for Harden? Kevin Martin is a much better player/scorer, an expiring contract and most importantly has playoff experience which sold OKC.

[Big Shot]

One could argue that Burke has been just as much of a failure in Toronto as BC and both should techinically be fired.

I'm so surprised that Burke seemed not able to do anything right since he came aboard. I remember him screwing Pat Quinn over and over when he was the GM of PHI.

[lucky777s]

Yeah, I don't see DD as being that attractive to the Thunder because of the lack of a 3pt shot and the fact he can't be the main facilitator on O like Harden.

But if HOU did not have our pick to throw around would that really have scuttled that deal. I don't know what the next best offer was.

By the way, Jays manager AA is showing BC how a small market GM can assemble assets and trade for players and then fill in with signings once they look like a contender. Jays took on salary just like Raps could do with cap space. But you need the young assets or picks.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Wow you are delusional. Unless you can find a high 1st round pick to throw in there as well you still aren't even close.

Yeah because a scorer comparable to Kevin Martin nowadays and a talent who's much better than Lamb or Jones is so delusional. Or anything they'll get out of our pick.

No one's delusional but you.

Sorry but I agree with Scase. Why would they have agreed to a trade for TWO unproven players (especially a shooting guard that can't shoot) and no draft picks for Harden? Kevin Martin is a much better player/scorer, an expiring contract and most importantly has playoff experience which sold OKC.

Have you seen Perkins play the past 2 seasons? He's been terrible. Drummond is averaging the same stats as Perk, despite playing 10 minutes/game less than Perk has. I think Presti would have rolled the dice with Drummond and DeRozan and say, a 1st round pick vs what Houston gave them.

[BD12]

Have you seen Perkins play the past 2 seasons? He's been terrible. Drummond is averaging the same stats as Perk, despite playing 10 minutes/game less than Perk has. I think Presti would have rolled the dice with Drummond and DeRozan and say, a 1st round pick vs what Houston gave them.

Well you included the draft pick in your scenario. In that case, yes, Presti might've rolled with it. But T-Ross the Boss said Harden for DeRozan/Drummond straight up with no draft pick.

[DHK]

Wow you are delusional. Unless you can find a high 1st round pick to throw in there as well you still aren't even close.

Yeah because a scorer comparable to Kevin Martin nowadays and a talent who's much better than Lamb or Jones is so delusional. Or anything they'll get out of our pick.

No one's delusional but you.

Have you seen Perkins play the past 2 seasons? He's been terrible. Drummond is averaging the same stats as Perk, despite playing 10 minutes/game less than Perk has. I think Presti would have rolled the dice with Drummond and DeRozan and say, a 1st round pick vs what Houston gave them.

This is hindsight.
Firstly, Harden and OKC were on good terms up until the week of the extension and absolutely no one saw the Harden trade coming.
If Harden was available well before and on the market for a while, perhaps getting the pieces to make a pitch might make sense, however at that time considering the situation at play (trying to get Nash), it was illogical to draft Drummond (espcially considering, we are still trying to find how well Bargs would fit in with Casey's system with full training camp + a rookie in Val + a solid back up in Amir + a person they have to evaluate this season Ed Davis).
Oh sure, but Drummond is biting us in the ass right now because he is projecting to be a decent player, but agian, hindsight.

Lamb showed a decent pre-season and summer leagues, Perry Jones (well I wasn't following him, but the draft scouts have some nice things to say and a lot of people are looking at the draft pick as a steal) + Martin (who's always been a scoring machine in Houston and in Sacramento) + A Toronto draft pick knowing we're a team entering with 2 rooks coming off a pretty disappointing campaign last season + their draft pick.

And against something of..
Derozen (oh, he's playing amazing right now, but who wold have expected this sort of development then, when his PER was atrocious, he was having difficult putting his game together and comparing Derozen's skillsets of last season..where he couldnt bring even half of what Harden or Martin brings (passing, perimeter scoring, consistency and in harden's case (defense)) + 8th draft pick which you're uncertain about + (Insert random piece here, because we certain'y cant offer a 1st round pick because of the draft rule).

Just a terrible argument overall.

[Scase]

Yeah because a scorer comparable to Kevin Martin nowadays and a talent who's much better than Lamb or Jones is so delusional. Or anything they'll get out of our pick.

No one's delusional but you.

Have you seen Perkins play the past 2 seasons? He's been terrible. Drummond is averaging the same stats as Perk, despite playing 10 minutes/game less than Perk has. I think Presti would have rolled the dice with Drummond and DeRozan and say, a 1st round pick vs what Houston gave them.

This is hindsight.
Firstly, Harden and OKC were on good terms up until the week of the extension and absolutely no one saw the Harden trade coming.
If Harden was available well before and on the market for a while, perhaps getting the pieces to make a pitch might make sense, however at that time considering the situation at play (trying to get Nash), it was illogical to draft Drummond (espcially considering, we are still trying to find how well Bargs would fit in with Casey's system with full training camp + a rookie in Val + a solid back up in Amir + a person they have to evaluate this season Ed Davis).
Oh sure, but Drummond is biting us in the ass right now because he is projecting to be a decent player, but agian, hindsight.

Lamb showed a decent pre-season and summer leagues, Perry Jones (well I wasn't following him, but the draft scouts have some nice things to say and a lot of people are looking at the draft pick as a steal) + Martin (who's always been a scoring machine in Houston and in Sacramento) + A Toronto draft pick knowing we're a team entering with 2 rooks coming off a pretty disappointing campaign last season + their draft pick.

And against something of..
Derozen (oh, he's playing amazing right now, but who wold have expected this sort of development then, when his PER was atrocious, he was having difficult putting his game together and comparing Derozen's skillsets of last season..where he couldnt bring even half of what Harden or Martin brings (passing, perimeter scoring, consistency and in harden's case (defense)) + 8th draft pick which you're uncertain about + (Insert random piece here, because we certain'y cant offer a 1st round pick because of the draft rule).

Just a terrible argument overall.

Have you seen Perkins play the past 2 seasons? He's been terrible. Drummond is averaging the same stats as Perk, despite playing 10 minutes/game less than Perk has. I think Presti would have rolled the dice with Drummond and DeRozan and say, a 1st round pick vs what Houston gave them.

Well you included the draft pick in your scenario. In that case, yes, Presti might've rolled with it. But T-Ross the Boss said Harden for DeRozan/Drummond straight up with no draft pick.

These 2 answers are basically it.

DD+Dru straight up for harden is tantamount to trade rape by the raptors. If we had our pick that houston traded and how poorly we are doing this season that would be a much better deal.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Hindsight? Uh, isn't a GM's ability to make projections part of his job? The second Russell Westbrook signed that max deal last year, every GM already knew that OKC would have a problem retaining one of Harden/Ibaka.

The fact that Colangelo's main gameplan this offseason was to go after Nash should have been enough to get him fired.

[West Rouge]

Hindsight? Uh, isn't a GM's ability to make projections part of his job? The second Russell Westbrook signed that max deal last year, every GM already knew that OKC would have a problem retaining one of Harden/Ibaka.

The fact that Colangelo's main gameplan this offseason was to go after Nash should have been enough to get him fired.

Colangelo take on zero responsibilty. He has to have the best job in the world. How can someone be paid his salary and not have any form of accountability??? Pure wall street

[Neutral 123]

Does **** stink?

[Dr Positivity]

Burke has been a way way better GM than BC. Here's how you test it: Look at the assets Burke started with when he took over the Leafs, and look what they have in comparison now. Now look at the assets BC started with as the Raptors, compared to what they have now. In terms of assets and value, the Leafs have gone strongly upwards and the Raptors down. And this is despite BC spending the last 2 seasons tanking. If BC was being measured at what he had 4 years in (2010) it would be proof of an even more embarrassing fall off a cliff asset value wise

The people who believe Burke has been as bad as or worse than BC, are judging it in the way Toronto sports media likes to judge things, by how many times the team gets to the playoffs. In reality judging a team by its assets and taking into account how massively better off the Raptors were to start the BC era than the Leafs were to the start the Burke one, shows Burke in no way should be compared to a GM as bad as BC

The argument is BC vs JFJ. BC is that bad. I think JFJ is still worse but it's an argument IMO