Lewenberg/Jack/Leo pick top 5 wings in Raps history.

[TheAlchemist]

Shawn Marion in his short time here, was a really solid player. Had we gotten him instead of Hedo, we'd of definitely made the playoffs that year.

IMO he should be mentioned.

Mo Pete didn't do much here at all, except for that one game in Washington or whatever.

Anthony Parker was a solid contributor on this team, great piece, but wasn't truly "dynamic".

I'd go with:

Vince Carter
Demar Derozan
Doug Christie
Tracy Mcgrady
Shawn Marion

With Mo Pete and Anthony as honorable mentions.

[OvertimeNO]

I don't think there's any competition between the two when it comes to who was the better Raptor. The better argument is between MoPete and Christie IMO. They had similar skillsets with MoPete offering the better 3P % and Christie slightly better defense. Morris was a Raptor for 2 extra seasons and Doug spend part of his first season as a Knick (that franchise keeps on giving!), so I'd probably give the edge to MoPete.

Honestly, while I love MoPete, I think his defence is overrated. He did a good job on the smaller, quicker guards, but struggled against guys his size or bigger. Christie could guard them all. His acquisition was a huge reason why the Sacramento Kings were able to take the next step from one-and-dones to serious contenders for the Western Conference title, even with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in their prime. The guy made All-Defence four times, something Mo never sniffed even once.

[nahom1319]

I can't believe how much disrespect T-mac is getting here. He didn't put up 20 points a game like Demar but he did everything else significantly better.

He averaged 15ppg 6.3rpg 3.3apg 1.1spg 1.9bpg on 24.3% usg as a 20 year old!!!!!!!!!!


I'm not saying he should be remembered as the 2nd greatest wing to play for us (though I tend to think so) but I do think he should at least be on the top 5 lists.

That was for ONE season. We are talking about top 5 wings all time in raps history. Gotta consider a players' entire career/contributions with the raps. That one season does not clearly outweight what a long term player, such as MoPete or Doug Christie that it is not arguable.

If that's the case then Demar doesn't deserve to be top 3 either.... His stats up until last season were that of a volume shooter. Up until last season he was perennial loser that the board was completely split on.

Last season was a coming out party but it was like you said ONE season.

[Jonas DeRoss]

Rasual Butler anyone?

[nahom1319]

McGrady spent 3 seasons in Toronto and left as a 21 year old. Yes, he showed enough promise in his 3rd and final season to convince our foolish management that he should get paid like a real star ... but that was year 3. He was completely lost in year 1 and semi-useful in year 2.

Christie spent 5 very productive seasons in Toronto - he played amazing defense and provided some scoring and athleticism.

I don't think there's any competition between the two when it comes to who was the better Raptor. The better argument is between MoPete and Christie IMO. They had similar skillsets with MoPete offering the better 3P % and Christie slightly better defense. Morris was a Raptor for 2 extra seasons and Doug spend part of his first season as a Knick (that franchise keeps on giving!), so I'd probably give the edge to MoPete.

My opinion is that Vince and Demar are clear 1 and 2.

Funny how Demar gets a pass for the first 4 years of his career as a chucker and nothing else, while Mcgrady is considered lost while playing better defense while MUCH younger.

Lets compare demar's first year age 20 with T-mac's 3rd year age 20 numbers?

What people will probably say: Oh no that's not fair cuz demar was a rookie.....

Ok well what about rookie years? Despite the 2 year age difference Tracy still came out ahead.

7.0 ppg 4.2 rpg 1.5 apg .8 spg 1.0 bpg in 18.4 mpg
vs
8.6 ppg 2.9 rpg 0.7 apg .6 spg 0.2 bpg in 21.6 mpg

So tell me again how Tracy Mcgrady was lost and Demar wasn't?

Tracy came into the league straight out of HS. He went through growing pains but had significantly more ability in his first 3 years than Demar. Demar's stats up until the past season aren't impressive. He is only a star in this league based on his work ethic and what he can become. If your comparing value in Tracy's first three years vs Demar's first 5, then I'd go with Tracy given eh was on a rookie deal and Demar has been earning that new paycheck.

If you want to take away their final year...even better I'll take Tracy and his two way performance over Demar and his (till then) chuckery.

[Badonkadonk]

If your comparing value in Tracy's first three years vs Demar's first 5, then I'd go with Tracy given eh was on a rookie deal and Demar has been earning that new paycheck.

If you want to take away their final year...even better I'll take Tracy and his two way performance over Demar and his (till then) chuckery.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... atr01.html

vs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... zde01.html

Really? Ok, you take Tracy's 3 years as a Raptor (11.9 WS) and I'll take Derozan's 5 (21.5 WS)

Why would I want to take away their final year? Because it was 21 yr old McGrady's best? Derozans was still better (8.8 vs. 6.6 WS) and only furthers my argument that DD has contributed WAY more while wearing a Raps uniform than McGrady ever did.

[OvertimeNO]

If your comparing value in Tracy's first three years vs Demar's first 5, then I'd go with Tracy given eh was on a rookie deal and Demar has been earning that new paycheck.

If you want to take away their final year...even better I'll take Tracy and his two way performance over Demar and his (till then) chuckery.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... atr01.html

vs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... zde01.html

Really? Ok, you take Tracy's 3 years as a Raptor (11.9 WS) and I'll take Derozan's 5 (21.5 WS)

Why would I want to take away their final year? Because it was 21 yr old McGrady's best? Derozans was still better (8.8 vs. 6.6 WS) and only furthers my argument that DD has contributed WAY more while wearing a Raps uniform than McGrady ever did.

You're not using cumulative WS during tenure, are you? Because

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nan01.html

16.3

... and I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that guy was a better Raptor than even one season of good T-Mac.


A better mark of quality during tenure would probably be WS per season. Total WS over tenure is too dependent on seasons played. Hell, Morris Peterson posted a 30.5 WS over 7 seasons with us, which destroys Derozan.

[Aliasego]

IMO Jack picked the right 5 guys, my only change would be moving Christie up one spot. I've always thought that he was one of the more underrated Raptors, constantly being left off of 'best of' lists. This is partially due to the era that he played in which was pretty bleak for the team. People have a much greater recollection of the decent seasons that followed. Another thing that might affect him is that his personal peaks were in Sacramento.

I'd argue that he was the second most important player (after Mighty Mouse) pre-Vince.

[changes]

You know its a laughable list when anthony parker pops up.

[RedX]

I'd Probably take AP over Mo Pete; and Doug Christie over both of them

Besides that he was a nice guy, why do people care at all about Anthony Parker? All I ever remember from him is missing wide open 3 pt shots, reliably.

[nahom1319]

If your comparing value in Tracy's first three years vs Demar's first 5, then I'd go with Tracy given eh was on a rookie deal and Demar has been earning that new paycheck.

If you want to take away their final year...even better I'll take Tracy and his two way performance over Demar and his (till then) chuckery.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... atr01.html

vs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... zde01.html

Really? Ok, you take Tracy's 3 years as a Raptor (11.9 WS) and I'll take Derozan's 5 (21.5 WS)

Why would I want to take away their final year? Because it was 21 yr old McGrady's best? Derozans was still better (8.8 vs. 6.6 WS) and only furthers my argument that DD has contributed WAY more while wearing a Raps uniform than McGrady ever did.

By that logic you should take away Demar's last season because it was his best.... which still doesn't make any sense. They were young players of course they're going to get better over time. Taking away a year because it conflicts with your narrative is just weak.

In any case your argument is flawed again, your looking at how much they produced while in uniform. Not how well they produced while in uniform. Quality over quantity youngin. Otherwise under that logic as Overtime stated it would go

Mo Pete >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Demar >>>>> Tracy Mcgrady.

If you're keen on using WS might i suggest WS/48 which compares apples to apples.

Demar over 5 years .081

Tracy over 3 years .1176

Yep you go ahead and take Demar...

[cram]

TMac is #2 and it's not really a contest.

Based on his contributions as a Raptor I think that is highly debatable.

Talent and potential... no question but actual performance DD is superior.

DD is superior in terms of production, but he isn't a better player than McGrady was in his final season here.

Carter was our first option and got better stats, but McGrady was better.

[cram]

If your comparing value in Tracy's first three years vs Demar's first 5, then I'd go with Tracy given eh was on a rookie deal and Demar has been earning that new paycheck.

If you want to take away their final year...even better I'll take Tracy and his two way performance over Demar and his (till then) chuckery.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... atr01.html

vs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... zde01.html

Really? Ok, you take Tracy's 3 years as a Raptor (11.9 WS) and I'll take Derozan's 5 (21.5 WS)

Why would I want to take away their final year? Because it was 21 yr old McGrady's best? Derozans was still better (8.8 vs. 6.6 WS) and only furthers my argument that DD has contributed WAY more while wearing a Raps uniform than McGrady ever did.

If you had an opportunity to trade Demar for one season of 21 yr old McGrady.....I do that trade every day of the week.

[Tacoma]

LEO really put christie of Derozan??? I want to SEE him put Calderon over Lowry and Damon.

Christie was on the NBA all defensive team for many years. He was our defensive stopper against the opposition's best player. Prime Christie on defence would easily stop prime DeRozan on offence.

[TheRaptor!]

I don't see Bruno on their lists.

[Badonkadonk]

If your comparing value in Tracy's first three years vs Demar's first 5, then I'd go with Tracy given eh was on a rookie deal and Demar has been earning that new paycheck.

If you want to take away their final year...even better I'll take Tracy and his two way performance over Demar and his (till then) chuckery.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... atr01.html

vs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... zde01.html

Really? Ok, you take Tracy's 3 years as a Raptor (11.9 WS) and I'll take Derozan's 5 (21.5 WS)

Why would I want to take away their final year? Because it was 21 yr old McGrady's best? Derozans was still better (8.8 vs. 6.6 WS) and only furthers my argument that DD has contributed WAY more while wearing a Raps uniform than McGrady ever did.

By that logic you should take away Demar's last season because it was his best.... which still doesn't make any sense. They were young players of course they're going to get better over time. Taking away a year because it conflicts with your narrative is just weak.

In any case your argument is flawed again, your looking at how much they produced while in uniform. Not how well they produced while in uniform. Quality over quantity youngin. Otherwise under that logic as Overtime stated it would go

Mo Pete >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Demar >>>>> Tracy Mcgrady.

If you're keen on using WS might i suggest WS/48 which compares apples to apples.

Demar over 5 years .081

Tracy over 3 years .1176

Yep you go ahead and take Demar...

It's not my logic, those are the ground rules of the article and the discussion. I mean, the very first thing they say is that it's not about the overall pro careers they had or about potential realized while elsewhere - it's about what they did as Raptors. It's the same reason they give for the spoiler they tipped about Hakeem not being on the list for centers next week; what he did elsewhere is irrelevant.

So yeah, DD crushes McGrady in that regard and cumulative WS is absolutely a valid measure when you're talking about franchise contribution.

And yes, you can make the DD vs. MoPete argument because even though DD will spike higher in his career (already has), MoPete goes down as one of the best wings because of his complete body of work.

You guys want to talk about best players who ever put on the uniform, even though they might have been washed up or babies when they were actually playing for Toronto? Sure, make the case for McGrady. But then I'll make the case for Marion, Dream and others which is just stupid and not even the point the article was trying to make.

[Guy Smiley]

TMac is #2 and it's not really a contest.

Based on his contributions as a Raptor I think that is highly debatable.

Talent and potential... no question but actual performance DD is superior.

DD is superior in terms of production, but he isn't a better player than McGrady was in his final season here.

Carter was our first option and got better stats, but McGrady was better.

The fantasy of McGrady continues to grow as time goes by. Did he have better tools than Vince? Even as a VC fan I would have to say yes. Was he better than Carter in Toronto that isn't even up for debate even taking into account Tmac's final year only. Vince was the man and completely took the league by storm as a Raptor.

Tmac didn't want to be in Toronto and it showed at times. There is no question he had unbelievable potential and depending on who you speak with realized a lot of it.

It is fun to live in a land of what if's and shoulda coulda woulda's but based on tangible evidence DD has surpassed the impact of a young Raptor McGrady. Would I still take the risk like GG did and hope I could secure a Tmac over DD... absolutely.

[cram]

Based on his contributions as a Raptor I think that is highly debatable.

Talent and potential... no question but actual performance DD is superior.

DD is superior in terms of production, but he isn't a better player than McGrady was in his final season here.

Carter was our first option and got better stats, but McGrady was better.

The fantasy of McGrady continues to grow as time goes by. Did he have better tools than Vince? Even as a VC fan I would have to say yes. Was he better than Carter in Toronto that isn't even up for debate even taking into account Tmac's final year only. Vince was the man and completely took the league by storm as a Raptor.

Tmac didn't want to be in Toronto and it showed at times. There is no question he had unbelievable potential and depending on who you speak with realized a lot of it.

It is fun to live in a land of what if's and shoulda coulda woulda's but based on tangible evidence DD has surpassed the impact of a young Raptor McGrady. Would I still take the risk like GG did and hope I could secure a Tmac over DD... absolutely.

If you put the 99/00 version of McGrady on the Raptors last year in place of DD, we win that series.

Demar has done LOADS more for the franchise, but I think McGrady in that final series was the most dangerous player we ever had. Butch seemed to think so as well if you look at the assignments Mcgrady had in that series.

[yodamaster]

leo is an idiot

[Guy Smiley]

DD is superior in terms of production, but he isn't a better player than McGrady was in his final season here.

Carter was our first option and got better stats, but McGrady was better.

The fantasy of McGrady continues to grow as time goes by. Did he have better tools than Vince? Even as a VC fan I would have to say yes. Was he better than Carter in Toronto that isn't even up for debate even taking into account Tmac's final year only. Vince was the man and completely took the league by storm as a Raptor.

Tmac didn't want to be in Toronto and it showed at times. There is no question he had unbelievable potential and depending on who you speak with realized a lot of it.

It is fun to live in a land of what if's and shoulda coulda woulda's but based on tangible evidence DD has surpassed the impact of a young Raptor McGrady. Would I still take the risk like GG did and hope I could secure a Tmac over DD... absolutely.

If you put the 99/00 version of McGrady on the Raptors last year in place of DD, we win that series.

Demar has done LOADS more for the franchise, but I think McGrady in that final series was the most dangerous player we ever had. Butch seemed to think so as well if you look at the assignments Mcgrady had in that series.

The Raps lost that series like McGrady's teams always did unless he was sidelined with injuries or two old to contribute. Much more so than Vince Tmac didn't live up to his immense potential.