OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-time ?

[ooptolebron]

1. D-Wade
2. Steve Nash
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Jimmer Fredette
6. Nik Stauskas
7. Lebryan Nash
8. Michael Jordan
9. Marco Bellinelli
10. Bruno Caboclo

Did I forget anyone? Oh yeah Redick could squeeze in there somewhere.

[Forza Barca]

Let's consider that from 2000-2010, Kobe went to 7 Finals, won 5 championships and during those lean years where his team sucked, put up historic scoring numbers en route to winning Player of the Decade. This is a generational talent we're talking about; one of the most dangerous scorers the game has ever seen and a guy who has a sparking resume peppered with individual accolades and championships both (all while playing in the ridiculously deep Western Conference for his entire career).

Players whom I believe are definitely better than Kobe:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Magic

That leaves Duncan, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, LeBron, Chamberlain, West, Oscar and Erving as players that Kobe has legitimate cases against; assuming you're the kind of person who has ALL of the above players higher than Bryant, the lowest ranking I can see for him conceivably is 14th. With that said, I'm not one of those people.

Duncan probably has a greater two-way impact than Bryant and his near-championship last year (spoiled by a series of unfortunate events for the Spurs) coupled with his title victory this year in my opinion places him higher than Bryant; prior to last year, I'd have believed it was a lot closer.

I've seen some pretty good Kobe-Bird threads here, and while Bird was the better all-around offensive player, Bryant was a much better defender in his prime (and it wasn't close). Some days I like Bird better but some days I like Kobe; today, I'm learning towards Larry so we'll say the Birdman was greater than Bryant for now.

Shaq is obviously a funny one - as dominant as he was, he also had the luxury of having Kobe Bryant as his Robin for all four of their Finals runs, and that 2001 playoff push showed that no tandem in history was as terrifying as Shaq/Kobe in their prime years together. For all of the "Kobe had Shaq for his first three titles" crap, Shaq also had Kobe - and by my count, Bryant's career post-Shaq was shockingly impressive even if you were to erase all three of their titles (which we won't, being that Kobe might have been the best second-fiddle of all-time). We'll argue for Shaq here since he was a more dominant player in his prime on both ends and the natural premium placed on big men throughout the history of the league.

Olajuwon remains insanely underrated to me, if only because he carried his teams to those two titles in 1994 and 1995 (*especially* in 1994). He was just such a terror on both ends of the floor and is one of the lone superstars in history to win a title without another HOF'er next to him (save for Drexler in '95). Hakeem gets overlooked a lot - perhaps because he shone brightest in the midst of Jordan's dynasty, or just got buried in the bevy of stars that have carried the league since he retired - but I have a hard time placing a lot of players over him. This is as tight as it possibly gets for me, but I will lean towards the Dream today ('today' being the key word, here).

It's no secret that I don't like LeBron James, and have been vociferous in my disdain for him as a person; of course, I can't take much away from him as a player, save for stacking his team in his prime years in a miserable conference and nearly going 1-3 over that stretch if not for the aforementioned bugaboo's in Game 6 of last year's Finals. As dominant as he is, I'm not entirely convinced he is the slam dunk choice over Bryant; I have never seen a player use the market to bolster his legend more than James, who managed to etch some championships onto his resume, up his shooting percentages and then distract people from a horrific Finals against San Antonio (as a team) by signing with his hometown (who conveniently acquired three first overall picks during his run in South Beach). Bryant has won back-to-back titles as "the man" and did so with Pau Gasol, who was 0-12 in the playoffs before joining the Lakers; LBJ did the same with Dwyane Wade, who won a bloody title and Finals MVP trophy prior to the Decision. James has glossier stats and more regular season MVP's, but has also played in a way, way easier conference and stacked his team so terribly that it's simply a shock to me that they didn't manage to win all four years together. I still like Kobe, here.

Chamberlain is a little like James, in that he was a psychotic individual performer who didn't live up to the expectations that a player of his talent should be able to realize; he won a couple of titles, but was mostly a self-interested **** who was more obsessed with his own perception than he was with actually being a competitor (sound familiar)? Wilt is one of those players who gets kind of brushed aside since he played in the 60's (mostly), but make no mistake...he was one of the most mind-blowing athletes that sports has ever seen. There simply wasn't anyone like him, and yet for all of his super powers he didn't dominate the way others did in spite of his otherworldly ability. I know with LeBron that the mental aspect has proven to be an obstacle for him over his career and the same can be said for Chamberlain. We can talk numbers and MVP trophies, but he didn't own the league when it mattered most and that's where I like the other Philly product better.

West, Oscar and Dr.J were pretty fabulous players and not too dissimilar in terms of talent from Mamba; but I only see one NBA championship for each player (although I acknowledge Julius played half of his career in the ABA) and Kobe's longevity, history of successes and relentlessness in ensuring his resume is a little shinier than his peers makes these pretty brief conversations with me.

So for now I have him at #10, and that's with a bit of waffling in terms of Bird/Shaq/Hakeem. Objectively speaking, the highest I would place him is 6th or 7th, but realistically anywhere from 8-10 is about right, IMO.

Hakeem was incredible. His skillset was so rare. Shaq said he was the best C ever. Jordan said he was the best C ever. In the last 25 years of basketball, he is the only one who took a team of nobodies to back-to-backs - Drexler was not the same Drexler in Portland. He was the only C in history where his offence was just as good as his defence, plus he could shoot from outside, could shoot FTs, all time leader in blocks, top 10 in steals (only C, no one else is even close). I love Tim Duncan and put him ahead of Kobe, but no way does his skillset compares to Hakeem. If you want to talk about achievements (longevity, stats etc.) then yes, it's comparable, but not skillset. Hakeem was fundamentally great, but incredible athleticism, speed and agility on top of it.

But man, has Kobe's legacy taken a beating the last couple of years. People are just straight disrespectful to him.

My all-time 5:
PG: Magic
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird (once LeBron retires, we can argue this)
PF: Hakeem
C: Kareem

[Scase]

Anyone who has Lebron on their top 15 list is too young to be commenting on a top 15 list.

[PenguinBoxer]

Kobe is the 2nd greatest player ever, and the most skilled player of all time. Simple Point Blank. Jordan was more athletic and naturally talented, while kobe had to work a little harder. Most of the NBA will tell you the same thing.

You cant compare the NBA to 20-30-40 years ago. Its a different game. players are so much more talented for various reasons....

Oh and Shaq carried him and won all those MVPs..... Yeah Against the Iverson and some bums, if you actually watched those games back then, it was kobed who carried those teams in the 4th quarter against the loaded west, year after year. What he is doing at this point of his career is insane. But then again, what do I know, and Kevin Durant know, and 90% of the rest of NBA players who basically tell you the same thing.

kobe fans have selective memory, they only pick and choose moments they want. Shaq was carried in 4th quarters? Lol Kobe fans think the lakers won 3 titles in 01. Shaq for the most part was their leading scorer in most fourth quarter runs. kobe was amazing too but let's not forget who the league was gameplanning for.

Shaq could not hit a FT.... everyone mentions the finals... but it was the west where the rings were run. Without Kobe shaq wins 1 ring max

[PenguinBoxer]

Kobe is the 2nd greatest player ever, and the most skilled player of all time. Simple Point Blank. Jordan was more athletic and naturally talented, while kobe had to work a little harder. Most of the NBA will tell you the same thing.

You cant compare the NBA to 20-30-40 years ago. Its a different game. players are so much more talented for various reasons....

Oh and Shaq carried him and won all those MVPs..... Yeah Against the Iverson and some bums, if you actually watched those games back then, it was kobed who carried those teams in the 4th quarter against the loaded west, year after year. What he is doing at this point of his career is insane. But then again, what do I know, and Kevin Durant know, and 90% of the rest of NBA players who basically tell you the same thing.

kobe fans have selective memory, they only pick and choose moments they want. Shaq was carried in 4th quarters? Lol Kobe fans think the lakers won 3 titles in 01. Shaq for the most part was their leading scorer in most fourth quarter runs. kobe was amazing too but let's not forget who the league was gameplanning for.

Shaq could not hit a FT.... everyone mentions the finals... but it was the west where the rings were run. Without Kobe shaq wins 1 ring max


This dude kobe was OUTSCORING whole teams... 81, 62 in the third, 60 in the third, insane

[Pooh_Jeter]

Shaq was the more dominant player at his peak, but again Kobe has the edge in longevity. Those two are basically neck and neck IMO, saying either is clearly ahead is ridiculous too.

Just to be clear here, Kobe - 1122 Game Starts & 200 playoff game starts, O'Neal - 1197 Game Starts & 214 playoff game starts. Not sure how Kobe has had longevity, and if you were not aware, Shaq's peak was 12+ years in a 19 year NBA career.

Please do not diminish the accomplishment of other players to prop up a "Kobe is top 10" argument.

I should have clarified, I didn't mean longevity in terms of raw games played. I meant longevity in terms of their peak.

Shaq was dominant from his rookie year and his peak ran probably 13 seasons. Kobe had a 14 year run and that doesn't include any of his first 3 seasons (one of which he started). Kobe was more durable during his peak as well. Snagging that extra ring should work in his favour too.

But, like I said in the initial post, I think it's largely a toss-up. I'm guessing more people would lean towards Shaq because of the more dominant peak, but I don't think singling out this argument means Kobe being a top 10 player is bogus.

[Guy Smiley]

Anyone who has Lebron on their top 15 list is too young to be commenting on a top 15 list.

Take Kobe's 5 best years ever and compare it to Lebron's career averages. See how overrated Kobe's peak has been in comparison to Lebron.

As for winning. Please review Kobe's regular season and more importantly playoff record without Phil Jackson.

Kobe can thank Phil Jackson for his legacy. Although a similar argument could be made against Michael Jordan.

[And1+2]

On an individual skill basis, Kobe is the second best pure offensive scorer of all time. Footwork, shooting form, ability to create space, post game, ability to read and distinguish lanes. Only one player did this better, and it is not LeBron James.

He definitely belongs on everyone's top 10 list at the very least. Not putting him in there is blasphamey to the game of basketball.

[xAIRNESSx]

Kobe is great, but definitely not top 5 and probably not top 10.

He's overrated by his fans.

[Korr]

This was originally about Tim Duncan being a better player, as well as a better leader. Let's compare their playoff stats since 2010. Do you not see how one player is far superior than the other? Duncan has been consistent over his entire career, all while being a true professional. W/O Shaq and some major help from the refs against Sacramento, we both know Kobe wouldn't have 5 titles.

This was about Kobe being a top 15 player of all time. I said nothing about Duncan.

I made a comment on professionalism in defending that Duncan was a better player than Kobe because a fanboy said otherwise; and you made a comment about professionalism meaning nothing on the court. That's how we arrived at this destination.

Didn't even read your original post lol, nor did I quote or make any reference to it. Learn how to message board.

I don't even disagree Duncan's the better player - except I hadn't even brought up his name.

[vaff87]

Anyone who has Lebron on their top 15 list is too young to be commenting on a top 15 list.

Take Kobe's 5 best years ever and compare it to Lebron's career averages. See how overrated Kobe's peak has been in comparison to Lebron.

As for winning. Please review Kobe's regular season and more importantly playoff record without Phil Jackson.

Kobe can thank Phil Jackson for his legacy. Although a similar argument could be made against Michael Jordan.

Honestly, Kobe isn't even comparable to LeBron.

[roundhead0]

The problem with "Top X Lists" is that too many people judge a player's overall ability, and then think "yeah, that's a Top X". You can see a lot of that in this thread. They do the same thing when thinking about all stars, or all-league. "Yeah, he's really good. He should be an all star."

But of course it doesn't work that way. It's a ranked list. So even if you're really, really, really good, that doesn't automatically make you top 5, or top 10, or top 15. You have to be better than other guys on the list.

Kobe is one of the greatest players of all time. People say things like only being considered top 15 "is an insult", but really, it's not. Top 15 you're pretty much the elite of the elite. Top 15 means on average that you were one of the top 2 or 3 players in a decade, although we tend to remember modern players a lot more than older ones.

Personally, I have a pretty tough time ranking Kobe in the top 10 just because there are definitely at least 10 better than him. I can easily slot him in the top 20 though. Likely somewhere in the 10-15 range.

I see some people slamming old time stars like Wilt because they think he only played against short, unathletic white guys. Yet they have no problem listing Bill Russell top 5 or top 10, and Russell and Wilt were very heated and comparable rivals. They also have no problem listing Abdul-Jabbar in the top 5 or top 10, and yet an old Wilt played very competitively against Kareem. Special athletes transcend their eras. Wilt with his size, leaping, speed, and strength would be a star in today's league. Bill Russell would be a star in this league.

Of course there was also one poster dissing Bill Russell. All I can say to that is: LOL.

[Sherlock]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nda01.html
A couple (I'm cherry picking) stats that really bring a smile to my face when talking about Mr Robinson

"Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win awards for Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and Most Valuable Player during his career"

"Only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season"

"Only player in NBA history to rank among the top seven players in the league in five statistics in the same season"
(Ranked seventh in scoring (23.2 ppg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg), first in blocks (4.49 bpg), fifth in steals (2.32 spg) and seventh in field-goal percentage (.551))

I only really started watching basketball seriously as Robinson was winding down his career, but these stats are pretty amazing.

I haven't heard a lot of this stated before, but reading this, to me it sounds like Anthony Davis is going to become the next David Robinson.

[binjumper]

lol @ all the people putting lebron in their list. He has won not 1 not 2... yeah just 2 titles mostly man handling a weaker eastern conference . You don't put people on that list for potential, cause 1 injury can easily remove them.

[Jstock12]

Not top10. Somewhere between 10 and 20.

HOWEVER, he might have one of the most successful if not the most succesful brands of all time, but that isn't so much about his greatness as a player as much as it is about his marketability. Duncan is a much more impactful player, but his brand... not as much.

[22haytham22]

I can't believe some of you are putting Isiah ahead of him. Kobe is top 15 no doubt, top 10 meh very debatable.

[m83588333]

If Kobe wasn't so Kobe LA would have won more. On the court he was one of the greatest. Off the court he was a scrub who alienates people.

[daswunderboy]

I'm not Kobe's biggest fan, as a player or person, but these guys are just wrong. First, Reggie, if at his best Kobe wasn't as good as Jordan at his worst, they you at your best aren't as good as Kobe missing both arms and one leg.

As for his place all time? Tough to say. Best or second best player on 5 championships is big. I think in the list above, he is better than David Robinson for sure. Maybe better than Oscar Robertson, but I can't really judge old timers, the game was so different (which is why I don't care about the triple double stat. Stats were nuts back then, rules so different).

I'd put Kobe over Bird (sorry legend fans, 5 > 2, and he had more longevity as well). Probably over Isiah as well.

Bird has 3 rings as the man bud

Ah, my bad. Well, 5 > 3 as well.

(I know that rings don't mean everything. I just value longevity a bit. Bird had a higher peak though, although in the hypothetical "Transplant one player from his generation to another", I think Kobe fares much, much better.

[VinBaker6]

Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

[RaptorsFan100]

Butch carter only talks about himself!!! Its insane how he is given a platform on a regular basis to spew BS abt himself.