OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-time ?

SST · Post #81 » by **SST** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:19 am

I feel like half the people who have opinions about kobes spot on the alltime list haven't even seen him play before 2010 LOL

CptLouHefner · Post #82 » by **CptLouHefner** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:21 am

SST wrote:I feel like half the people who have opinions about kobes spot on the alltime list haven't even seen him play before 2010 LOL

Are you saying that those who aren't including him in their top 10 are clueless?

CptLouHefner · Post #83 » by **CptLouHefner** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:24 am

[quote="CountOnAlex"]

Wasn't that list compiled before Shaq retired? I'm sure if it gets revised, Shaq will be on there.

SST · Post #84 » by **SST** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:25 am

CptLouHefner wrote:
SST wrote:I feel like half the people who have opinions about kobes spot on the alltime list haven't even seen him play before 2010 LOL

Are you saying that those who aren't including him in their top 10 are clueless?

Not exactly, but for me it's hard to keep a guy with 5 championships top 3 scorer ever. 2 time finals mvp out of your top 10, But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Arman_tanzarian · Post #85 » by **Arman_tanzarian** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:31 am

SST wrote:
CptLouHefner wrote:
SST wrote:I feel like half the people who have opinions about kobes spot on the alltime list haven't even seen him play before 2010 LOL

Are you saying that those who aren't including him in their top 10 are clueless?

Not exactly, but for me it's hard to keep a guy with 5 championships top 3 scorer ever. 2 time finals mvp out of your top 10, But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What's so hard to believe? The top 10 is stacked with historic names. Before guys like shaq, duncan, kobe and Lebron even started building a legacy there were things like the immortal 6. Etc....the top 10 is stacked with guys with multiple MVPs, titles etc... People that rank kobe out of the top 10 didnt start watching the game in 2010? They also watched ball before 06. A lot of people also don't make their top 10 lists just based on points scored total or ring counts.

primecougar · Post #86 » by **primecougar** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:39 am

Why is bird who was a known choker in the playoffs better than him?
Why is shaq better than him? He only has 1 mvp as well?
Why is Hakeem better? Why is Duncan better (good case tho)
Why is Russell? Why is magic? Why is wilt?

It feels like it when comes to comparing kobe everything is used against him but not other players! The guy is a top 7-10 all time great wether realgm likes it or not.

Every top 10 player played with other greats but only kobes first 3 rings don't count. Kay/magic, bird on Boston with Mchale and parish, Jordan/pip, Russell with like 8 hof players.

When it comes winning mvp. Winning 1 is only seen as a negative for kobe. Shaq had the best peak ever and he only has one.

Kobe took bad shots but Magic/bird were terrible defensive players. Russell was a below avg offensive players.

Kobe was the best player from 06/09 and literally shattered many scoring records on a team with NBA rejects.

He's a 5time champion, one of the best scorers, one of the most complete players ever, and people hate him cause he wasn't nice.

CptLouHefner · Post #87 » by **CptLouHefner** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:42 am

Can somebody find advanced stats for the guys in the top 10 and compare those to Kobe's? I'm genuinely curious to see how the numbers look.

SST · Post #88 » by **SST** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:45 am

primecougar wrote:Why is bird who was a known choker in the playoffs better than him?
Why is shaq better than him? He only has 1 mvp as well?
Why is Hakeem better? Why is Duncan better (good case tho)
Why is Russell? Why is magic? Why is wilt?

It feels like it when comes to comparing kobe everything is used against him but not other players! The guy is a top 7-10 all time great wether realgm likes it or not.

Every top 10 player played with other greats but only kobes first 3 rings don't count. Kay/magic, bird on Boston with Mchale and parish, Jordan/pip, Russell with like 8 hof players.

When it comes winning mvp. Winning 1 is only seen as a negative for kobe. Shaq had the best peak ever and he only has one.

Kobe took bad shots but Magic/bird were terrible defensive players. Russell was a below avg offensive players.

Kobe was the best player from 06/09 and literally shattered many scoring records on a team with NBA rejects.

He's a 5time champion, one of the best scorers, one of the most complete players ever, and people hate him cause he wasn't nice.

the hate for Kobe is becoming ridiculous. Extremely underated on realgm lol.

PenguinBoxer · Post #89 » by **PenguinBoxer** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:47 am

Kobe is the 2nd greatest player ever, and the most skilled player of all time. Simple Point Blank. Jordan was more athletic and naturally talented, while kobe had to work a little harder. Most of the NBA will tell you the same thing.

You cant compare the NBA to 20-30-40 years ago. Its a different game. players are so much more talented for various reasons....

Oh and Shaq carried him and won all those MVPs..... Yeah Against the Iverson and some bums, if you actually watched those games back then, it was kobed who carried those teams in the 4th quarter against the loaded west, year after year. What he is doing at this point of his career is insane. But then again, what do I know, and Kevin Durant know, and 90% of the rest of NBA players who basically tell you the same thing.

SST · Post #90 » by **SST** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:58 am

Arman_tanzarian wrote:
SST wrote:
CptLouHefner wrote:
Are you saying that those who aren't including him in their top 10 are clueless?

Not exactly, but for me it's hard to keep a guy with 5 championships top 3 scorer ever. 2 time finals mvp out of your top 10, But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What's so hard to believe? The top 10 is stacked with historic names. Before guys like shaq, duncan, kobe and Lebron even started building a legacy there were things like the immortal 6. Etc....the top 10 is stacked with guys with multiple MVPs, titles etc... People that rank kobe out of the top 10 didnt start watching the game in 2010? They also watched ball before 06. A lot of people also don't make their top 10 lists just based on points scored total or ring counts.

Dude like I said everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My top 10 is probably different than yours, and you might have different reasons for players being part of your top ten. But for me what players have done is a big thing when I take in account NBA'S greatest players. As for the 2010 comment you shouldn't feel offended if it doesn't relate to you.

Post #91 » by **Mr Swagtastic** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:00 am

Kobe is better then Isiah Thomas

I am not the biggest Kobe Bryant fan but he is at worst in the top ten

EH15 · Post #92 » by **EH15** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:09 am

SST wrote:
Arman_tanzarian wrote:
SST wrote:
Not exactly, but for me it's hard to keep a guy with 5 championships top 3 scorer ever. 2 time finals mvp out of your top 10, But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What's so hard to believe? The top 10 is stacked with historic names. Before guys like shaq, duncan, kobe and Lebron even started building a legacy there were things like the immortal 6. Etc....the top 10 is stacked with guys with multiple MVPs, titles etc... People that rank kobe out of the top 10 didnt start watching the game in 2010? They also watched ball before 06. A lot of people also don't make their top 10 lists just based on points scored total or ring counts.

Dude like I said everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My top 10 is probably different than yours, and you might have different reasons for players being part of your top ten. But for me what players have done is a big thing when I take in account NBA'S greatest players. As for the 2010 comment you shouldn't feel offended if it doesn't relate to you.

The guys being listed here have done just as much, and more , than Kobe has. On top of that, many of them were simply better, more dominant players than Kobe was.

daswunderboy · Post #93 » by **daswunderboy** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:20 am

I'm not Kobe's biggest fan, as a player or person, but these guys are just wrong. First, Reggie, if at his best Kobe wasn't as good as Jordan at his worst, they you at your best aren't as good as Kobe missing both arms and one leg.

As for his place all time? Tough to say. Best or second best player on 5 championships is big. I think in the list above, he is better than David Robinson for sure. Maybe better than Oscar Robertson, but I can't really judge old timers, the game was so different (which is why I don't care about the triple double stat. Stats were nuts back then, rules so different).

I'd put Kobe over Bird (sorry legend fans, 5 > 2, and he had more longevity as well). Probably over Isiah as well.

Sheldon Cooper · Post #94 » by **Sheldon Cooper** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:43 am

Patman wrote:Kobe took some **** Laker teams to the 2nd and 3rd rounds of some tough Western Conference competition.

I would put him in the 10-15 range all time.

And what teams would that be that were **** and he took to 2nd and 3rd rounds?

Here is a year-by-year of Lakers records: http://www.nba.com/lakers/history/year_by_year.html

[2004-5] - The year after Shaq left they missed the playoffs under Rudy T.
[2005-6] - Made the playoffs but coughed up a 3-1 series lead in the first round to Phoenix. How can anyone forget the Kobe pout game in game 7 where he refused to take a shot in the second half: http://www.nba.com/games/20060506/LALPHX/recap.html
[2006-7] - Lost to Phoenix in 5 games again in the first round
[2007-8] - They get Gasol mid-season and make it to the Finals before losing to a very good Boston squad
[2008-9] - Won championship
[2009-10] - Won championship
[2010-11] - Lost in second round with same team that won the championship
[2011-12] - Lost in the second round again with the same team
[2012-13] - Lost in first round

To recap: they have only been to the second round twice and both those times he had a pretty decent cast around him. Guys like Pau Gasol, Ron Artest and Lamar Odom were all pretty good players. I wouldn't say Kobe dragged them anywhere.

Another problem is that people who make these lists of "greatest x players ever" tend to omit guys who were amazing but never won championships because they were never on the best teams. Guys like Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and even Steve Nash were phenomenal players that never won championships because they never had the best teams.

Kobe was a great player and is probably somewhere in the top 30 of all time. Suggesting he was top 10 (or that he was better than Shaq or Duncan) is completely ridiculous. He reminds me a bit of Brett Favre who had the most TDs and the most INTs (until Peyton broke his TD record). Kobe has the most missed shots in NBA history.

[DISCLAIMER]: I know people are going to scream that Nash wasn't even in the same league as Kobe and he wasn't when it comes to stardom but as a basketball player during his peak Nash was arguably better. During 8 seasons in Phoenix (his second stint there), he averaged 16.3 points on .542/.437/.912 (2pt/3pt/ft) shooting with 10.9 assists and 3.4 rebounds. Some of those years Shawn Marion was the second best player on that team (with Amar'e out for knee surgeries) and they still beat Kobe and the Lakers in the playoffs. They were coached by Mike D'Antoni. Lakers were coached by Phil Jackson.

Steven1562 · Post #95 » by **Steven1562** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:44 am

i have him in the top 15 but not top 10 ... i don't see what the big deal is ?!?!? being top 15 all time is pretty damn good with the amount of players to play in NBA history to be one of the 15 greatest is a great accomplishment

snomeister · Post #96 » by **snomeister** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:04 am

Scase wrote:I'm always hesitant to put Wilt in top 10's etc. I feel that him more than any other player in these lists was simply better due to his size more than anything else. Yes he was still very skilled but, this was also in a time where most the league wasn't, add to that his towering size and that leaves you with a man Vs boys scenario.

As for Kobe top 15 seems relatively accurate. It's hard to say something like he's top 5 when he's not even the best at his position in history.

Wilt could have been the GOAT if he had more of a Bill Russell mindset, he loses a lot of rep because of his attitude. However, I think people go too far with the weaker era argument. No, he would not be dropping 100 in today's game, but I am also fairly confident that he would be the best player in the league today, or at the very least, in the conversation with LBJ and KD.

Think about it, not too long ago, Dwight was considered a top 3 current player, despite a lot of holes in his game. Wilt was bigger, more athletic, and more skilled than Dwight, and that was without all the benefits of modern sports science. Also consider that blocks weren't tracked back then. I think if they were, many people would have different opinions of Wilt and Russell, as its been estimated by experts that they likely averaged double digits BPG during their peaks. Again, they wouldn't be able to do that today, but just knowing how dominant they were back then might turn some people's heads.

LastNameEver · Post #97 » by **LastNameEver** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:11 am

Mr Swagtastic wrote:Kobe is better then Isiah Thomas

I am not the biggest Kobe Bryant fan but he is at worst in the top ten

Hall of fame legends disagree

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

bakafool · Post #98 » by **bakafool** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:39 am

Kobe has played almost his entire career in a league with defensive rules that favor perimeter players.

Great scorer on volume, good defender when he wants to be. Terrible percentages. But skilled. Sometimes immature. Clutch. But not as much as people think.

That's what Kobe is. A great player that's both overrated and underrated at the same time.

Arman_tanzarian · Post #99 » by **Arman_tanzarian** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:00 am

daswunderboy wrote:I'm not Kobe's biggest fan, as a player or person, but these guys are just wrong. First, Reggie, if at his best Kobe wasn't as good as Jordan at his worst, they you at your best aren't as good as Kobe missing both arms and one leg.

As for his place all time? Tough to say. Best or second best player on 5 championships is big. I think in the list above, he is better than David Robinson for sure. Maybe better than Oscar Robertson, but I can't really judge old timers, the game was so different (which is why I don't care about the triple double stat. Stats were nuts back then, rules so different).

I'd put Kobe over Bird (sorry legend fans, 5 > 2, and he had more longevity as well). Probably over Isiah as well.

Bird has 3 rings as the man bud

Arman_tanzarian · Post #100 » by **Arman_tanzarian** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:03 am

PenguinBoxer wrote:Kobe is the 2nd greatest player ever, and the most skilled player of all time. Simple Point Blank. Jordan was more athletic and naturally talented, while kobe had to work a little harder. Most of the NBA will tell you the same thing.

You cant compare the NBA to 20-30-40 years ago. Its a different game. players are so much more talented for various reasons....

Oh and Shaq carried him and won all those MVPs..... Yeah Against the Iverson and some bums, if you actually watched those games back then, it was kobed who carried those teams in the 4th quarter against the loaded west, year after year. What he is doing at this point of his career is insane. But then again, what do I know, and Kevin Durant know, and 90% of the rest of NBA players who basically tell you the same thing.

kobe fans have selective memory, they only pick and choose moments they want. Shaq was carried in 4th quarters? Lol Kobe fans think the lakers won 3 titles in 01. Shaq for the most part was their leading scorer in most fourth quarter runs. kobe was amazing too but let's not forget who the league was gameplanning for.