We DESPERATELY need Jonas to develop into a star

[vini_vidi_vici]

that stat is almost useless IMO because Jonas barely touched the ball when he is on the floor. You're acting like there is active movement within the offebse and Jonas is just chucking up 10 shots a game.

Jonas barely plays, barely gets touches, and when he does get the ball, he should pass ibup half the time to players who show no willingness to move without the basketball? What kind of nonsense is that?!

Hes at an alltime high USG%, youre aware of this correct?? 3rd highest of the starters, 5th highest of active players (not incl Bruno/Bebe).

To further refute your point about cutters last year.

JV had 14 ASTs to KL, 12 to DD, a whopping 26 to them all last season. Only 5 (edit: of KLs baskets) of those ASTs came within 5ft of the basket. He scored 6 off 3s. It looks like most of his ASTs came from kicking it out to shooters, not cutters.

So he wont pass it because he wont get it back, and yet they should pass it because they wont get it back? Seems reasonable this is strictly an advocacy in favor of JV.

How can you not see the fallacy in your own argument?

1) First of all, let's dissect your point about Val's assists. How is it odd that most (read only one more) of his assists can from spot up shooters? That's not odd because that's all the team does when he gets the ball - stand around and wait for the pass.

2) that "all time high" USG rate is pure hyperbole. Most of this teams usage is gonna come from the guards, who have the ball in their hands most of the time. As a matter of fact, don't you think it's odd that bench players like Vasquez and Williams have higher USG rates than Val? So yes he has a high usage FOR HIM, but with respect to the rest of the team? Not at all tbh.

Show me an offense where, when JV gets the ball, there are cuts being made consistently and players are flashing to the ball. Show me that offense, and if he still isn't passing then you have an argument

1) you said all the cuts last year, these are last years numbers.

2) I just told you he was 3rd or starters/5th on team, reading comprehension??

[J_Sky_G]

Hes at an alltime high USG%, youre aware of this correct?? 3rd highest of the starters, 5th highest of active players (not incl Bruno/Bebe).

To further refute your point about cutters last year.

JV had 14 ASTs to KL, 12 to DD, a whopping 26 to them all last season. Only 5 (edit: of KLs baskets) of those ASTs came within 5ft of the basket. He scored 6 off 3s. It looks like most of his ASTs came from kicking it out to shooters, not cutters.

So he wont pass it because he wont get it back, and yet they should pass it because they wont get it back? Seems reasonable this is strictly an advocacy in favor of JV.

How can you not see the fallacy in your own argument?

1) First of all, let's dissect your point about Val's assists. How is it odd that most (read only one more) of his assists can from spot up shooters? That's not odd because that's all the team does when he gets the ball - stand around and wait for the pass.

2) that "all time high" USG rate is pure hyperbole. Most of this teams usage is gonna come from the guards, who have the ball in their hands most of the time. As a matter of fact, don't you think it's odd that bench players like Vasquez and Williams have higher USG rates than Val? So yes he has a high usage FOR HIM, but with respect to the rest of the team? Not at all tbh.

Show me an offense where, when JV gets the ball, there are cuts being made consistently and players are flashing to the ball. Show me that offense, and if he still isn't passing then you have an argument

1) you said all the cuts last year, these are last years numbers.

2) I just told you he was 3rd or starters/5th on team, reading comprehension??

1) I said absolutely nothing about last years cuts, I'm talking about the offense this season

2) Don't go for petty insults like questioning my reading comprehension. My point is that if he's in an offense that's extremely guard heavy, and has 4 guards that have USG rates much higher than his, how can you call his USG rate an all time high? That screams hyperbole. Furthermore, you still have not addressed the fact that the players do not move at all when he gets the ball. Again that probably has more to do with coaching, but I personally think its lazy to look at a guys assist rate and come to the conclusion that he's not a willing passer. That's lazy.

[vini_vidi_vici]

So now we're not using PER? Oh wait, only If we're attacking Demar right?

And I find it interesting that the main stats that Val has visible issues with, assists and +/-, are either extremely dubious(plus minus) or not traditional centre stats. Val was also part of some very highly ranked 5 man teams, are we talking about that ever?

Just compare the BLK % an rebounding percentages of Val and Noah. They seem pretty close yet one I seen as a defensive sieve and the other a defensive player of the year.

I never use PER.

What about defensive #s? Go back and read this thread, I post alot more than just "assists and +/-". None of which were flattering.

BLK% is prob the lowest corollary to DRTG. First its not even assured you get the Stop on them (ex: out of bounds/etc..).

And yea his REB% is good, yet the team gets out rebounded with JV on the floor, and dont when hes off the floor.

Meanwhile with Noah off the court the team DRTG goes up (unlike JV), and its his worst iDRTG since his 2nd year (and still better than JVs). And yet his DFG% differential is still -4.1. Hes regressed in rim protection, but if youre comparing an off year/injured Noah (whos missed consecutive games 3 times, twice 4 games consecutively) to JV, thats an indictment not a accolade. Compare him to last years #s if you want to use the DPOY narrative.

Edit: Since I missed it.

Also, when a player has a high ts% and good per with his high usage, as opposed to Wright who has lower usage rate, then it's a good thing.

You mean like Mason Plumlee?? Another guy who gets 90%+ of his FGAs inside 10 ft? 58.1 TS%. 21.0 USG%. 17.1 REB%. How great is he??

Mason is pretty good, another young centre getting a chance with the nets.

I don't know triple v, we always come back to point differential with criticism of Jonas. We talk about rim protection but we avoid blk%, we talk about his rebounding weaknesses but we ignore rebound%. We always come back to a +/- discussion and I an not a fan of this stat in basketball. Talk about an all-encompassing stat that needs pages of context, these ones are certainly that.

For instance, if he rebounds at a high clip and yet his team gets outré bounded with him on the floor, as you pointed out, what's the reasoning? Is he stealing rebounds for personal gain? Is his team relaxing on the boards thinking he will get them all? All +/- discussions fall flat to me for basically these concerns. It's a stat that just gets me to ask more questions rather than answering anything.

We talk about iREB%/Rim Protection (this season) as positives with JV, I dont know what youre talking about.

It means when hes on the floor the team gets out REB%, and when hes off of it they get dont get out REB%. I dont know what you want me to say.

Im still unclear why +/- arent relevant to you, but again what about RTGs? DFG%? ASTr? etc..??

[vini_vidi_vici]

How can you not see the fallacy in your own argument?

1) First of all, let's dissect your point about Val's assists. How is it odd that most (read only one more) of his assists can from spot up shooters? That's not odd because that's all the team does when he gets the ball - stand around and wait for the pass.

2) that "all time high" USG rate is pure hyperbole. Most of this teams usage is gonna come from the guards, who have the ball in their hands most of the time. As a matter of fact, don't you think it's odd that bench players like Vasquez and Williams have higher USG rates than Val? So yes he has a high usage FOR HIM, but with respect to the rest of the team? Not at all tbh.

Show me an offense where, when JV gets the ball, there are cuts being made consistently and players are flashing to the ball. Show me that offense, and if he still isn't passing then you have an argument

1) you said all the cuts last year, these are last years numbers.

2) I just told you he was 3rd or starters/5th on team, reading comprehension??

1) I said absolutely nothing about last years cuts, I'm talking about the offense this season

2) Don't go for petty insults like questioning my reading comprehension. My point is that if he's in an offense that's extremely guard heavy, and has 4 guards that have USG rates much higher than his, how can you call his USG rate an all time high? That screams hyperbole. Furthermore, you still have not addressed the fact that the players do not move at all when he gets the ball. Again that probably has more to do with coaching, but I personally think its lazy to look at a guys assist rate and come to the conclusion that he's not a willing passer. That's lazy.

Because his USG% is at an alltime high. I dont know what you want me to tell you. How can I convince you? These are publicly available stats.

Again I have said ITT that ASTs have little correlation to ORTG, but ive already laid out how ineffective JVs passing is, even JStock concedes its his weakness, I dont know again what you want me to say.

Okay his USG is low and he has a high ASTr, better?

Edit:

When Jonas has the ball nobody makes cuts to the basket or flashes to the ball. How the hell is he supposed to get assists in that case?

Last year, JV used to nicely pass to cutting Lowry or DD. Somehow, these cuts disappeared this season. ISO into the crowd or contested long 2 or 3 is today's main trend.

This is what I was responding to, I thought it was your quote. My apologies.

[dballislife]

i guess the only way jonas can consistently play 30min a game under casey is to drop 20-30 pounds...become a lot quicker, develop a 3 ball and play more like a 4

[vini_vidi_vici]

i guess the only way jonas can consistently play 30min a game under casey is to drop 20-30...become a lot quicker, develop a 3 ball and play more like a 4

Or he could just start with defense.

[Regulio]

The Raptors simply need to play him more minutes than any of their other big men. There is no excuse as to why he plays so sparingly. Imo, he has made some good strides and seems way more comfortable on offense than he was last season. As he starts losing more weight, you can also see his defense improving noticeably.

If Jonas was on almost any other team he'd be playing 30 plus minutes and allowed to play through his mistakes. And we'd see how good of a player he really is, probably able to put up close to 18-10. The question is, does it translate to more wins? Casey can point to his +/- stat as his defense for not playing him very much. Masai purposely left the bench bigs very thin so Casey would be forced to play him, but it hasn't worked out like he thought.

Yeah but in case of DeRozan he doesn't care about advanced stats Boy is he selective

[Regulio]

And yea his REB% is good, yet the team gets out rebounded with JV on the floor, and dont when hes off the floor.

I'm curious why do you think this happens ?
I mean, if you are rebounding at elite rate (JV's TRB% is in Duncan's territory), but your team still rebounds better with you on the bench, it's a bit weird. Are you not boxing out at all and let opposition get offensive rebounds ? Is Raptors second unit made of strong rebounders ?
And why should it be used against JV ?
It is a weird situation.

[Dukenukem23]

I honestly think.he already is if he was given more minutes he'd be an all star. if he can become a rim protector to go with his offence and rebounding he could be a superstar.

[Reg00]

I never use PER.

What about defensive #s? Go back and read this thread, I post alot more than just "assists and +/-". None of which were flattering.

BLK% is prob the lowest corollary to DRTG. First its not even assured you get the Stop on them (ex: out of bounds/etc..).

And yea his REB% is good, yet the team gets out rebounded with JV on the floor, and dont when hes off the floor.

Meanwhile with Noah off the court the team DRTG goes up (unlike JV), and its his worst iDRTG since his 2nd year (and still better than JVs). And yet his DFG% differential is still -4.1. Hes regressed in rim protection, but if youre comparing an off year/injured Noah (whos missed consecutive games 3 times, twice 4 games consecutively) to JV, thats an indictment not a accolade. Compare him to last years #s if you want to use the DPOY narrative.

Edit: Since I missed it.



You mean like Mason Plumlee?? Another guy who gets 90%+ of his FGAs inside 10 ft? 58.1 TS%. 21.0 USG%. 17.1 REB%. How great is he??

Mason is pretty good, another young centre getting a chance with the nets.

I don't know triple v, we always come back to point differential with criticism of Jonas. We talk about rim protection but we avoid blk%, we talk about his rebounding weaknesses but we ignore rebound%. We always come back to a +/- discussion and I an not a fan of this stat in basketball. Talk about an all-encompassing stat that needs pages of context, these ones are certainly that.

For instance, if he rebounds at a high clip and yet his team gets outré bounded with him on the floor, as you pointed out, what's the reasoning? Is he stealing rebounds for personal gain? Is his team relaxing on the boards thinking he will get them all? All +/- discussions fall flat to me for basically these concerns. It's a stat that just gets me to ask more questions rather than answering anything.

We talk about iREB%/Rim Protection (this season) as positives with JV, I dont know what youre talking about.

It means when hes on the floor the team gets out REB%, and when hes off of it they get dont get out REB%. I dont know what you want me to say.

Im still unclear why +/- arent relevant to you, but again what about RTGs? DFG%? ASTr? etc..??

Yes. I know what the stat means. Just wondering the actual basketball context. It's important if we are judging a basketball player. I kinda want you to talk about basketball for once, and not throw numbers around!

If he protects the rim well, if he rebounds the ball at a high level, then how is it he is getting all the flak for rebounding and defense? Because of +/- numbers: which in a very fast moving game like basketball are less important than a hockey +/- stat.

[FTW]

Yes. I know what the stat means. Just wondering the actual basketball context. It's important if we are judging a basketball player. I kinda want you to talk about basketball for once, and not throw numbers around!

Errrr....not tryin to pick on you, but I think "I know what the stat means" should, you know, inherently involve you knowing the basketball context. Because that's what the stat means, lol

[MEDIC]

I honestly think.he already is if he was given more minutes he'd be an all star.

Can't say I disagree with you here. I mean.......I don't know if he would be a deserving allstar (a little premature in my opinion), but you look at his per36 stats of 17+ppg & 11+rpg & they are pretty hard to ignore. Especially when you are the starting C (with good size) on one of the best teams in your conference.

With 33mpg, he would probably be averaging 15 & 10.

You look at Marc Gasol's stats & you realize he has never averaged less than 30mpg in his career (although he came into the league at 24 years old).

[Big Shot]

I'm confident that he'll be a star player sooner rather than later by watching his play of late.

[sca]

I honestly think.he already is if he was given more minutes he'd be an all star.

Can't say I disagree with you here. I mean.......I don't know if he would be a deserving allstar (a little premature in my opinion), but you look at his per36 stats of 17+ppg & 11+rpg & they are pretty hard to ignore. Especially when you are the starting C (with good size) on one of the best teams in your conference.

With 33mpg, he would probably be averaging 15 & 10.

You look at Marc Gasol's stats & you realize he has never averaged less than 30mpg in his career (although he came into the league at 24 years old).

PER36 stats are misleading. Players tend to play more when they're having a good night.

[Big Shot]

PER36 stats are only misleading when the player can't actually play 36 minutes per game consistently.

[djsunyc]

we ask a 22 year old to post up and score while everyone clears the hell out for him to operate. that's a lot of responsibility and pressure. there are no options whatsoever for jonas when he gets it in the post. we are not developing his decision making at all b/c every time he gets it, it's "his" play and only "his" play. that's why he doesn't get any assists. i like that he gets the ball when he does but he should be getting it more and in different spots. this clear out sh t is stupid as f ck.

[MEDIC]

I don't think JV's per 36 stats are misleading. Especially his rebounding.

Just FYI......Per36 takes into account all of a players minutes. Good & bad. It's not cherry picking.

[MEDIC]

we ask a 22 year old to post up and score while everyone clears the hell out for him to operate. that's a lot of responsibility and pressure. there are no options whatsoever for jonas when he gets it in the post. we are not developing his decision making at all b/c every time he gets it, it's "his" play and only "his" play. that's why he doesn't get any assists. i like that he gets the ball when he does but he should be getting it more and in different spots. this clear out sh t is stupid as f ck.

Our whole offense is based on iso's & matchups. They admitted last year that our stat guys love iso's.

JV's next phase of offensive development will be passing out of the post......or at least I hope that is what the plan is.....

[djsunyc]

we ask a 22 year old to post up and score while everyone clears the hell out for him to operate. that's a lot of responsibility and pressure. there are no options whatsoever for jonas when he gets it in the post. we are not developing his decision making at all b/c every time he gets it, it's "his" play and only "his" play. that's why he doesn't get any assists. i like that he gets the ball when he does but he should be getting it more and in different spots. this clear out sh t is stupid as f ck.

Our whole offense is based on iso's & matchups. They admitted last year that our stat guys love iso's.

JV's next phase of offensive development will be passing out of the post......or at least I hope that is what the plan is.....

passing to who tho? our other players are on the other side of the court lol...

[vini_vidi_vici]

Mason is pretty good, another young centre getting a chance with the nets.

I don't know triple v, we always come back to point differential with criticism of Jonas. We talk about rim protection but we avoid blk%, we talk about his rebounding weaknesses but we ignore rebound%. We always come back to a +/- discussion and I an not a fan of this stat in basketball. Talk about an all-encompassing stat that needs pages of context, these ones are certainly that.

For instance, if he rebounds at a high clip and yet his team gets outré bounded with him on the floor, as you pointed out, what's the reasoning? Is he stealing rebounds for personal gain? Is his team relaxing on the boards thinking he will get them all? All +/- discussions fall flat to me for basically these concerns. It's a stat that just gets me to ask more questions rather than answering anything.

We talk about iREB%/Rim Protection (this season) as positives with JV, I dont know what youre talking about.

It means when hes on the floor the team gets out REB%, and when hes off of it they get dont get out REB%. I dont know what you want me to say.

Im still unclear why +/- arent relevant to you, but again what about RTGs? DFG%? ASTr? etc..??

Yes. I know what the stat means. Just wondering the actual basketball context. It's important if we are judging a basketball player. I kinda want you to talk about basketball for once, and not throw numbers around!

If he protects the rim well, if he rebounds the ball at a high level, then how is it he is getting all the flak for rebounding and defense? Because of +/- numbers: which in a very fast moving game like basketball are less important than a hockey +/- stat.

Im not talking about Hockey you know. All I do is talk basketball on this site.

Who is giving him flak for individual rebounding?? Im still unsure where youre getting this narrative from. Hes a great iREB%, when hes on the court the team gets outREB%, when hes off we dont.

Again youre hyper focused on 2 things individual REB% and =/- (both of which do have merit in context, not as sole arbitors, again something ive said alot already), what about the other 10+ stats I spammed in this thread? are they excusable too??

BTW because a guy is a good rim protector doesnt make him a good defender, youre aware of this correct? theres 1v1/etc..