OT: ESPN analyzes the Bulls Thibs breakup in detail

[Double Helix]

Good read

In the five years Thibodeau has coached the Bulls, sports science has arrived, and while there is important work being done with hydration, sleep schedules and more, the most glaring arguments from researchers have to do with rest. Dozens of studies and just about every sports scientist you can ask agree that NBA players simply need more of it. It's not just that they will play better every minute if they play fewer minutes, it's that their likelihood of injury skyrockets when they are fatigued. And the effects compound over time -- with enough rest and careful exercise, players might get stronger as the season wears on. Without adequate rest, it's just a matter of when and not if they'll get hurt.

With Gregg Popovich leading the way, coaches have evidently taken note -- this was the first season in league history that no NBA player played more than 3,000 minutes, a plateau that until recently used to be the norm for All-Stars.

There are various ways to find rest for your best players. One is to be lenient with days off when little injuries arise or in meaningless games. Another is to keep stars on per-game minute limits or to remove them early from blowouts.

Can't help but think of Lowry playing more and trying to do more than ever before and it catching up to him this regular season.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[C_Money]

I'm on Thib's side for this. Rest should be done in practice IMO. The games are where they earn their money. Give the starters days off when their not playing but during the game, they should be prepared to go 40+ minutes.

[jonny three time]

I'm on Thib's side for this. Rest should be done in practice IMO. The games are where they earn their money. Give the starters days off when their not playing but during the game, they should be prepared to go 40+ minutes.

The article specifically says that he rides the players too hard with practices as well, so you're not exactly on his side. I'm not on either side. He does ride his players too hard and they have a history of wearing out in/before the playoffs. However, he is a great coach who's helped a bunch of players reach their best case scenario while under him, as well as resurrecting the careers of numerous vets who were willing to buy in.

This whole rift comes down to egos as much as it does philosophies.

Also, for anyone unsure of whether to read the article, it's very good and informative. The parts with JVG were particularly interesting and made me appreciate him as a media personality that much more.

[raptor jesus]

As was the case during his January commentary, Van Gundy wasn't finished.

"John Paxson, to be fair, said he thought what I said was 'pathetic,' " Van Gundy said, in reference to Paxson's comments to the Tribune, in which he also stated that he felt Van Gundy owed an apology to Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf for his previous comments in January during the game in Dallas.

"He was so mad at me I thought I had traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas and not him."

The front office, already livid about Van Gundy's comments in Dallas, believed that the former coach had taken a personal shot at Paxson with the Aldridge remark. They felt a line had been crossed.

[Hendrix]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this sort of thing. But, I kind of wonder what the big deal is when we are talking about players having to play at their best for ~3000 minutes out of an entire year. That's 50 hours of basketball all year. Yes there are other efforts they have to put in off the court (though if there's one place to take a break it's here), but 50 hours in a year of actual in game playing time at the max? Is it really going to matter that much if they play 45 hours of in game, max effort basketball, instead of 50 hours?

[Ell Curry]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this sort of thing. But, I kind of wonder what the big deal is when we are talking about players having to play at their best for ~3000 minutes out of an entire year. That's 50 hours of basketball all year. Yes there are other efforts they have to put in off the court (tshough if there's one place to take a break it's here), but 50 hours in a year of actual in game playing time at the max? Is it really going to matter that much if they play 45 hours of in game, max effort basketball, instead of 50 hours?

It's all inches, though, in the end, so everything matters. Look at the playoffs. It wasn't due to overuse, but there are injuries everywhere.

[Mascot]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this sort of thing. But, I kind of wonder what the big deal is when we are talking about players having to play at their best for ~3000 minutes out of an entire year. That's 50 hours of basketball all year. Yes there are other efforts they have to put in off the court (though if there's one place to take a break it's here), but 50 hours in a year of actual in game playing time at the max? Is it really going to matter that much if they play 45 hours of in game, max effort basketball, instead of 50 hours?

The difference is not 5 hours over the year its a per game thing.

36.5 mins a game is 3000 mins. You cut a player back to 30 mins a game and they are much less likely to get injured because of fatigue PER game. Think about it 6/36 is 1/6th the time....so if you lower a players playing time by 1/6 thats 17% almost.

Much less chance of being worn out and trying to play through it.



Its shaving a minute and a half off of each quarter which is a LOT when you are running constantly.

[Double Helix]

Basketball is also far more physically demanding than given credit for. Most casual observers think there's little risk due to the lack of intense physically contact and while it's obviously nowhere near as risky as football or hockey for that fact, or even pitching in baseball, the regular, repeated motions of running full speed and stopping, changing direction and, perhaps most damaging of all, jumping high in the air and landing sometimes awkwardly does add up game after game after game.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Rapcity_11]

I'm on Thib's side for this. Rest should be done in practice IMO. The games are where they earn their money. Give the starters days off when their not playing but during the game, they should be prepared to go 40+ minutes.

The issue isn't that players are whining (which they might be). It's that guys are getting hurt and are too worn down to play well in the playoffs.

[mrsocko]

Is this what happened to Lowry? Seems like a day off here or there in Jan/Feb might have avoided the big drop off end of March.

[sule]

If the science holds true (i'd have to look into it for myself to completely agree), then i think the league can help ameliorate the extent of injuries to players by extending the season by a week or two to reduce back-to-backs, which, IMO is the real reason for so many injuries.

More days off between games and more back-to-backs at home rather than home-and-away's, could potentially help reduce the injuries by providing more resting time between games.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Basketball is also far more physically demanding than given credit for. Most casual observers think there's little risk due to the lack of intense physically contact and while it's obviously nowhere near as risky as football or hockey for that fact, or even pitching in baseball, the regular, repeated motions of running full speed and stopping, changing direction and, perhaps most damaging of all, jumping high in the air and landing sometimes awkwardly does add up game after game after game.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It's hell on peoples' legs, which is coincidentally where we see a lot of injuries (by legs I mean ankles, tendons, knees, etc.). Certainly if we had given Lowry less burn we might have been a bit less of a joke come post-All-Star break time.

[cammac]

I think the ideal playing time for starters are 32 minutes with good time management by the coach.
This year Lowry played 12 minute quarters and that takes it's toll. Latter in the year Jonas often played 10 to 12 minutes of the 1st quarter which affects his stamina. Casey stated that he uses practise as punishment which means they are overworked rather than preparing for the next opponent and improving weaknesses.

In many ways Casey is like a very inadequate Thibs.
I want a progressive coach who looks at the dynamics of the game, who is not rooted in a particular philosophy either defensive or offensive, who can utilize advance statistics but can separate the wheat from the chaff. He needs to hire top assistants both defensively and offensively and be the puppet master to help them co-ordinate both into a functional game plan. He is unafraid to make vital changes to unhinge the rival coaches.

Raptors need a combination chess master and world class Bridge player to develop into a great coach rather than someone who loses at X & O's.

[Kabookalu]

This sure doesn't help Casey who's a poor mans Thibs in overplaying certain players.

[torontoaces04]

Kiss the ring, bitches.

[Boogie!]

This sure doesn't help Casey who's a poor mans Thibs in overplaying certain players.

casey also tends to play his best guys waaaay too long during meaningless garbage minutes with double digit leads….

[Hendrix]

I think the ideal playing time for starters are 32 minutes with good time management by the coach.
This year Lowry played 12 minute quarters and that takes it's toll. Latter in the year Jonas often played 10 to 12 minutes of the 1st quarter which affects his stamina. Casey stated that he uses practise as punishment which means they are overworked rather than preparing for the next opponent and improving weaknesses.

In many ways Casey is like a very inadequate Thibs.
I want a progressive coach who looks at the dynamics of the game, who is not rooted in a particular philosophy either defensive or offensive, who can utilize advance statistics but can separate the wheat from the chaff. He needs to hire top assistants both defensively and offensively and be the puppet master to help them co-ordinate both into a functional game plan. He is unafraid to make vital changes to unhinge the rival coaches.

Raptors need a combination chess master and world class Bridge player to develop into a great coach rather than someone who loses at X & O's.

I don't know man, I'm not sure all that in a coach is necessary. Sure another one would be nice, but it's kind of a distraction from the fundamental problem, which is the group of guys that are on this team. Demar Derozan is one of the faces of the franchise, and can't really do anything good besides some inefficient mid range scoring. He's not a good 1st options, and isn't good enough at the other things like defense, rebounding, passing, spreading the floor, etc... to be a good role player. If he's your top scorer, and you are going up against Lebron, or Curry, or Durant, etc.... the battle's already over before it began. Ross is pretty awful for a starter. Amir's important to our defense, but is always playing injured/not at his best. Jonas's pick and roll D is rough. Our defense collapses when our one really good defender (Amir) isn't in there. I just don't see many coaches doing anything special with this group of guys. What does a really good coach do with these guys? win 52 games, and still have zero shot of making it anywhere noteworthy in the playoffs?

[cammac]

I think the ideal playing time for starters are 32 minutes with good time management by the coach.
This year Lowry played 12 minute quarters and that takes it's toll. Latter in the year Jonas often played 10 to 12 minutes of the 1st quarter which affects his stamina. Casey stated that he uses practise as punishment which means they are overworked rather than preparing for the next opponent and improving weaknesses.

In many ways Casey is like a very inadequate Thibs.
I want a progressive coach who looks at the dynamics of the game, who is not rooted in a particular philosophy either defensive or offensive, who can utilize advance statistics but can separate the wheat from the chaff. He needs to hire top assistants both defensively and offensively and be the puppet master to help them co-ordinate both into a functional game plan. He is unafraid to make vital changes to unhinge the rival coaches.

Raptors need a combination chess master and world class Bridge player to develop into a great coach rather than someone who loses at X & O's.

I don't know man, I'm not sure all that in a coach is necessary. Sure another one would be nice, but it's kind of a distraction from the fundamental problem, which is the group of guys that are on this team. Demar Derozan is one of the faces of the franchise, and can't really do anything good besides some inefficient mid range scoring. He's not a good 1st options, and isn't good enough at the other things like defense, rebounding, passing, spreading the floor, etc... to be a good role player. If he's your top scorer, and you are going up against Lebron, or Curry, or Durant, etc.... the battle's already over before it began. Ross is pretty awful for a starter. Amir's important to our defense, but is always playing injured/not at his best. Jonas's pick and roll D is rough. Our defense collapses when our one really good defender (Amir) isn't in there. I just don't see many coaches doing anything special with this group of guys. What does a really good coach do with these guys? win 52 games, and still have zero shot of making it anywhere noteworthy in the playoffs?

Don't disagree with you our team is flawed in many ways and yes DeMar isn't a ideal 1st option but with Casey's system that was exactly what he was. The team was based on ISO players and 3PT shooting and long 2's. This was also exacerbated by a scrabbling defense that requires high IQ and great athletes to be effective. Raptors aren't blessed with those players and the front court was destroyed by opponents offense.

Players need to be moved and a rebuild on the fly needs to be done.
I can't see a place on the team for Vasquez and Ross plus Patterson's value is debateable.
Lowry could be moved but Masai won't do it unless he gets a equitable deal something like #6 & Collison or a trade for another PG like a healthy Holiday, Bledsloe or Jeff Teague

DeMar I'm neutral on but I think if he had the proper coach he could be a plus in that he has significant tools to be very good. DeMar has been coddled his entire career as a Raptor and never given tough love. Lets face it DeMar will never have a 3PT shot end the experiment and he is the most inefficient guard 3ft and out on the team where the man excels is on his drives and he has historically been better @ 3 to 10Ft. than he was this year. The man has tools to be a effective 2nd or 3rd option but should never be taking 17 shots a game especially the contested long 2s. If he cut back to 12 shots a game used his penetration strength and his ability to get to the line he would be better offensively his scoring might slip to 17PPG but would make the team better. DeMar can be a + defender but not in Casey"s system and a player who can get 5RPG & 4APG. A player like that is worth 15 million.

Would I trade DeMar yes especially if I thought he couldn't make the transition to be the type of player above. If we could get a prospect like Hezonja or Stanley Johnson I would be tempted as long as we didn't pick up a huge negative contract.

Really every player should be expendable for the right trade.

Jonas I'm a Jonas fan boy but also see the flaws

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Good read

In the five years Thibodeau has coached the Bulls, sports science has arrived, and while there is important work being done with hydration, sleep schedules and more, the most glaring arguments from researchers have to do with rest. Dozens of studies and just about every sports scientist you can ask agree that NBA players simply need more of it. It's not just that they will play better every minute if they play fewer minutes, it's that their likelihood of injury skyrockets when they are fatigued. And the effects compound over time -- with enough rest and careful exercise, players might get stronger as the season wears on. Without adequate rest, it's just a matter of when and not if they'll get hurt.

With Gregg Popovich leading the way, coaches have evidently taken note -- this was the first season in league history that no NBA player played more than 3,000 minutes, a plateau that until recently used to be the norm for All-Stars.

There are various ways to find rest for your best players. One is to be lenient with days off when little injuries arise or in meaningless games. Another is to keep stars on per-game minute limits or to remove them early from blowouts.

Can't help but think of Lowry playing more and trying to do more than ever before and it catching up to him this regular season.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Playing lowry a lot was (Please Use More Appropriate Word), I posted this at the time when he was struggling and possibly fatigued/hurt. Especially considering we weren't really playing for anything. Then again casey burnt out amir trying to win games in meaningless tank seasons sabotaging our pick and then orchestrating the pick of ross. Amazing.

[AirCanadaMouse]

Good read

In the five years Thibodeau has coached the Bulls, sports science has arrived, and while there is important work being done with hydration, sleep schedules and more, the most glaring arguments from researchers have to do with rest. Dozens of studies and just about every sports scientist you can ask agree that NBA players simply need more of it. It's not just that they will play better every minute if they play fewer minutes, it's that their likelihood of injury skyrockets when they are fatigued. And the effects compound over time -- with enough rest and careful exercise, players might get stronger as the season wears on. Without adequate rest, it's just a matter of when and not if they'll get hurt.

With Gregg Popovich leading the way, coaches have evidently taken note -- this was the first season in league history that no NBA player played more than 3,000 minutes, a plateau that until recently used to be the norm for All-Stars.

There are various ways to find rest for your best players. One is to be lenient with days off when little injuries arise or in meaningless games. Another is to keep stars on per-game minute limits or to remove them early from blowouts.

Can't help but think of Lowry playing more and trying to do more than ever before and it catching up to him this regular season.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Playing lowry a lot was (Please Use More Appropriate Word), I posted this at the time when he was struggling and possibly fatigued/hurt. Especially considering we weren't really playing for anything. Then again casey burnt out amir trying to win games in meaningless tank seasons sabotaging our pick and then orchestrating the pick of ross. Amazing.

Casey was completely clueless in managing his players minutes in respect to their health. Remember Lowry getting almost 40 minutes against CHA in a meaningless game (last game of the reg. season).

Even in a blowout win Casey manages to f*ck it up. Countless times this season starters would be racking up minutes until there was about a minute to spare and he would just throw in the third stringers. You treat your players like scrubs, they'll start to play like it. Pop doesn't allow that.

It shows how important a good head coach is in the NBA. You need to manage your players properly in a lot of aspects. Casey is too stubborn to adapt to this.

I get the part of having your starters play big minutes to get a W, but it's pointless to give them minutes in a blow out.