Is DeRozan a Top 5 SG?

[Throwback24]

Looks like he made it on Tim Kawakami's "all no defense team" list

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2016/08/18/2016-nba-no-defense-team/

* G DeMar DeRozan, Toronto.

This is a future NDPOY in the making: He’s still only 27, with room to bottom-out, and he put up a -2.00 DRPM, which made him the 400th ranked player out of 462 in the league.

DeRozan is a classic what-happened defender; he’s there with a guy, looks like he has good position, then one quick dribble and suddenly DeRozan’s guy is wide open and DeRozan is… not nearby. What happened?

It’s subtle and you can miss it sometimes; but just watch him closely on defense and you’ll see him disappear time after time. (Other classic what-happened defenders: Monta Ellis and Kyrie Irving.)

Also, DeRozan has been awful defensively in the Olympics thus far, symbolic of a group that was supposed to be (according to the coaching staff) one of the best defensive squads in recent Team USA history and has turned out to be rather poor.
Yes, at times offensively DeRozan reminds me of a young Kobe.

And at times defensively DeRozan reminds me of an old Kobe.

Can someone explain to me what DRPM measures because everyone touts Middleton as a good defensive player but, why did his DRPM drop from 4-ish to 0.69 year over year? Also, players like Redick (-1.59) and Wiggins (-1.84) rank lower than Harden (-0.98).

I'm not a huge stat head, where's VVV when you need him, but if I had to wager a guess I'd probably point to the Bucks falling from one of the leagues highest ranked defenses to damn near last. From what little I understand of RPM, a good portion of how you fare is decided by your surrounding teammates.

What's more, he had an equally huge rise and fall in DPRM and I don't think the truth lies on either end of the spectrum for him.

[Johnstarks]

Middleton is a 2 way player with playmaking skills and elite shooting. He's a guy that helps open the floor for others and can put the ball on the floor to initiate offense.

Derozan puts a lot of pressure on the defense with his ability to get penetration and get to the line but Middleton is a complete offensive player and a better defender.

Derozan did improve his 3pt% quite a bit last year though. If he eliminates the high volume of long 2s and continues to improve his 3pt% he could certainly pass Middleton though. It's definitely huge for an offense to have a 2nd guard who can score and generate assists as most teams have at least one guard they'd like to hide on defense (lillard, curry, irving, etc).

I think it's pretty clear he's not on a level with klay or butler. And obviously no one is on hardens planet... I think after middleton I'd go with derozan.



That being said, I'd rather have a guy like Redick, hood, or even Danny green (WHEN NOT MIRED IN A SEASON LONG SHOOTING SLUMP) as a downgrade at sg if it meant I could have a superior player at another position....

I.e. I'd rather have DeAndre jordan and Redick than derozan and jv...

I think it's fairly difficult to build a great playoff roster around derozans game and his struggles were really magnified this year against hassan whiteside.

Overall, he's one of the harder guys in the league to evaluate because i think people really underestimate how much having a non shooting 2 guard affects your other players efficiency, but they also underestimate how important having a 2ND penetratior is to an offense

[vini_vidi_vici]

Looks like he made it on Tim Kawakami's "all no defense team" list

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2016/08/18/2016-nba-no-defense-team/

Can someone explain to me what DRPM measures because everyone touts Middleton as a good defensive player but, why did his DRPM drop from 4-ish to 0.69 year over year? Also, players like Redick (-1.59) and Wiggins (-1.84) rank lower than Harden (-0.98).

I'm not a huge stat head, where's VVV when you need him, but if I had to wager a guess I'd probably point to the Bucks falling from one of the leagues highest ranked defenses to damn near last. From what little I understand of RPM, a good portion of how you fare is decided by your surrounding teammates.

What's more, he had an equally huge rise and fall in DPRM and I don't think the truth lies on either end of the spectrum for him.

Last year, 105.7/22nd
The year before, 99.3/2nd

Edit: If you want to see the gory formula of RAPM, look here.

[kanersen]

Harden

Klay
Butler

Derozan
Wade

people putting Beal, etc ahead of Derozan are just hating at this point.

[junot111]

He's a firm 4/5 right now but Wiggins will surpass him within the next year. Booker the year after

[yassillio]

[quote="deeps6x"]Just LOL.

My top 5 would go something like this:

Harden
Butler
Middleton
Oladipo
McCollum
Thompson
Hood
Batum
Reddick
Ginobili
DeRozan

Not even a top ten SG. Or are we not counting defense?

Lol the irony

[Raptors_Dynasty]

I don't even like Demar that much but he is for sure in the top 5.

[Mr Swagtastic]

DeRozan is so underrated on here, he helped this team have their best season to date and is now all of a sudden being ranked behind guys like Middleton, Rodney Hood, McCollum, Oladipo, Reddick and Booker. Seriously what does he have to do? Give this whole forum season tickets and donate his salary to us?

He is a top 5 SG at worst, I see Jimmy Butler, Klay and Harden as the only three I would trade him for and I am iffy on Harden's character. He is a great basketball player but looks like he only wants to play for himself. If The Bucks wanted to trade me Middleton for DeRozan I would need more and I don't see what realistic deal could be done since Giannis is off the table for obvious reasons and I wouldn't do a Middleton + Maker or their first for DeRozan.

[Zappa012]

I'd only take DD as top 5 SG only if he's ranking outside 45th overall assuming SG position is not that strong right now.

But i'm not really into this because while being an inefficient volume scorer guy just can't defend.

Trust me.
Your sincere non-homer fan.

[Pooh_Jeter]

DeRozan has basically become Rajon Rondo.

[Moose10Fan]

Outsider here.

I'm not a Derozan fan in the least but people would rather have Booker?

He's being terribly overrated already it seems, he had a hot stretch to start the season and then went terribly cold.

A proclaimed shooter with bad shooting numbers and a worse defender than Derozan.


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[Pooh_Jeter]

Outsider here.

I'm not a Derozan fan in the least but people would rather have Booker?

He's being terribly overrated already it seems, he had a hot stretch to start the season and then went terribly cold.

A proclaimed shooter with bad shooting numbers and a worse defender than Derozan.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

This is crazy.

He was an 18 year old rookie who clearly has a lot of physical maturing to do. Yeah, he struggled at times in the 2nd half, but he was also fed an increasing work load so of course there was going to be struggles.

The flashes of brilliance he showed as such an inexperienced guard saddled with such a heavy offensive burden is why people are so excited about him.

[Alfred]

While obviously advanced metrics are important, I think that being able to put up 17+ shots a game on 55% TS% is pretty good for your team. It takes a lot of pressure off of the rest of your team to create. He's not even a bad passer either.

The big problem with DeRozan was his playoff performance, which was very poor.

[Got Nuffin]

Just LOL.

My top 5 would go something like this:

Harden
Butler
Middleton
Oladipo
McCollum
Thompson
Hood
Batum
Reddick
Ginobili
DeRozan

Not even a top ten SG. Or are we not counting defense?

Lol the irony

That is a terrible list.

Middleton is so overrated around here for some reason. He makes zero impact on the game a lot of nights on either end. Oladipo is barely a top ten guard in terms of consistency at this point. Hood lol. Ginobilli can barely play anymore. Reddick does one thing and one thing only. Batum is overrated as well as far as overall impact- got major minutes in the Olympics and played like Bruno Caboclo.

Butler, McCollum (maybe), Harden, Thompson (best sg in the league imo) are the guys ahead of Derozan.

[Moose10Fan]

Outsider here.

I'm not a Derozan fan in the least but people would rather have Booker?

He's being terribly overrated already it seems, he had a hot stretch to start the season and then went terribly cold.

A proclaimed shooter with bad shooting numbers and a worse defender than Derozan.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

This is crazy.

He was an 18 year old rookie who clearly has a lot of physical maturing to do. Yeah, he struggled at times in the 2nd half, but he was also fed an increasing work load so of course there was going to be struggles.

The flashes of brilliance he showed as such an inexperienced guard saddled with such a heavy offensive burden is why people are so excited about him.

I don't see the brilliance, I see a streaky shooter/poor mans Beal. Time will tell.

[DrCoach]

This is stupid

Of course DeRozan is a Top 5 SG

He lead his team to the best record in History

He lead his team to the best playoffs in History

His team thinks so and paid him 150 mil

The coaches think so because he is a two time all star

Team USA thinks so because he is representing our country as a top 12 player.


Wiggins isn't a SG and is not currently better than Demar

If Olidipo was a top SG he'd never get traded for freaking Declining Ibaka AND a lotto pick.

Middleton is a nice two player but has NEVER been more than a 3rd or 4th option

[WCCC]

That is a terrible list.

Middleton is so overrated around here for some reason. He makes zero impact on the game a lot of nights on either end. Oladipo is barely a top ten guard in terms of consistency at this point. Hood lol. Ginobilli can barely play anymore. Reddick does one thing and one thing only. Batum is overrated as well as far as overall impact- got major minutes in the Olympics and played like Bruno Caboclo.

Butler, McCollum (maybe), Harden, Thompson (best sg in the league imo) are the guys ahead of Derozan.

This is stupid

Of course DeRozan is a Top 5 SG

He lead his team to the best record in History

He lead his team to the best playoffs in History

His team thinks so and paid him 150 mil

The coaches think so because he is a two time all star

Team USA thinks so because he is representing our country as a top 12 player.


Wiggins isn't a SG and is not currently better than Demar

If Olidipo was a top SG he'd never get traded for freaking Declining Ibaka AND a lotto pick.

Middleton is a nice two player but has NEVER been more than a 3rd or 4th option

Zero impact is a lot better than the negative impact that Derozan occasionally brings. At his best, he gives a borderline all-star impact. A lot of the times he has zero impact and sometimes he has negative impact. People talk about DeMar leading us here and there, yet where was he leading us before Lowry took the reigns? To the lottery. When we turned the team around after the Gay trade, did Derozan suddenly go from a useless scrub to an all-star? No, he was the exact same player, we just put the ball in Lowry's hands. What exactly propelled us to more wins last season? Defense. Yet, Derozan was our 2nd worst defender..yeah, let's credit him and say he "led" us there. We were 3-1 without Derozan last season and 2-3 without Lowry.

Not to say that Derozan hasn't had useful games, but if we're looking at the whole body here, the biggest factor with Derozan is his consistency. Not only does he go hot and cold from possession to possession and game to game, it seems like his level of play varies from season to season. People look to last season and think he's going to go 55+ TS% for the rest of his career, but already in the playoffs he was an undeniable cancer. Homers are so blind that they think being the worst in league history at something means that you're great.

Derozan also made the Olympics, whoop-dee-doo..he gets recognized so much that he can't even get minutes behind two players playing like trash. Look at the off-season where Durant didn't even want to come in to interview. Even he knows Derozan's a running joke. When it comes down to it and people need to show their true colours, it turns out the Derozan hype is a facade and more politics than substance. You're looking at a SG version of Kevin Love, Marbury, Gay, Steve Francis type of deal (although Love was much better). None of these guys are/were scrubs, mind you, but not as useful as people seem to think. Heck, Rudy freaking Gay had priority over Derozan in FIBA.

If your team needs volume scoring, then sure, a Gay type of player can fill in the gap, but that's all he is..a filler until we assemble a team that can achieve league average efficiency without him. Players who are only useful with the ball in their hands (in Derozan's case, sometimes not even useful or neutral, but detrimental) have diminishing returns when you start lowering his usage or start adding more offensive pieces. Once that happens, Derozan can only provide neutral or a negative impact, which is why he'd never work long-term and shouldn't be considered a core piece.

[Crazomali]

As for this thread, I do believe he's a top 5 sg because he plays like one. During the season when the team went into scoring droughts it was DD that helped end it by making timely long 2s that helped us keep the lead and get the win. I mean he is part of the best backcourt in the east which is a great look for the guy

[Mikestro]

I stopped reading this thread when someone said Reddick is a better SG than Demar. It's even more unbelievable that some people actually +1'd that post.

Demar is so underrated and underappreciated on here it's ridiculous. Smh.

[Double Helix]

I'm confident stating that if the NBA held an actual draft of all players in the NBA today and all salaries were equal with every team truly interested in competing and filling their arenas for entertainment value Derozan wouldn't last beyond the second round selections and would in fact be among the top 5 SGs selected by actual front offices & coaches.

Lowry would be a first round selection though.