Did Masai choose the right post-DeRozan path?

[Johnny Bball]

How is giving Biyombo 17 mil per to backup JV even a discussion. And fwiw OP we could not have traded Ross and BeBe then signed BB. We needed cap space to sign BB and we are millions past the cap so you would have needed to trade another big piece. So the premise of the thread really doesn't work. And the MLE has to basically fit into our cap space this year. None of this was viable.

[cammac]

Wish the BB8 BS would go away he was a great deal @3.5 million but at 17 million terrible nothing he has shown can show he is a quality starter. He looked good against Miami's 2nd & 3rd stringers but Whiteside would have killed him. With Cleveland TT was a good match up as well because he gets dominated by larger Cs and his offense is mess. Reality JV $14 million and BB8 $17 million get out of here. The Raptors signed essentially 3 free agents in JV, DeMar and Ross I don't believe any other team did that and got a very serviceable Sullinger for MLE.

With Boston they drafted the consensus #8 in Brown and we got consensus #9 in Poeltl yes Boston had 2 stashes but only one I liked was Zizic but he a few years away and Saikam is a much better prospect to play than Richardson.

[Jawz_101]

Why would we wanna be paying our back up center more than our starting center . Biz is overrated man move on

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I hear some aspects of your argument Ell Curry, but I think, to paint a complete picture you need to take a broader view. For example, while status quo, or what we've done is defined - what we could have done is not. I say that interms of keeping Biyombo - I mean, you could do a bunch or more of those steps to clear money - and then gone a lot of different ways. Masai played the cards as they came and has done so modestly to great impact thus far. But what we accomplished and what we set out to accomplish are not the same. It's well documented that even after signing DD, there were a number of avenues Masai was looking at, which were in line with a lot of what you wrote, and were a lot closer to happening than Biz.

After the Ibaka at the draft fell through, there was Pau, Anderson - all that we wanted and felt we had, that ended up falling through based on the players choice, and there was the window we had with Milsap, until Horford went to Boston. Acting as if Masai chose to go the MLE route for Sully over these other options is incorrect.

Also, in regards to Biz, Orl was after Biz while we were having DD and Kyle make pitches to Pau - by the time that all was resolved Biz had committed to Orlando. To say Masai chose to sign Sully over keeping BIz, implies the choice was his, and if we're being factual maybe Sully wasn't really the other side of the coin, at that time. i say that not because of Sully as a player, but Sully was a one year MLE rental that, unless he has a very bad season, we have no real means to keep, and it creates a situation where we have no PF, other than Rooks, actually committed for next year, and nothing except Pat's bird rights and maybe the tax payer MLE, if MLSE agrees to use it, after paying Lowry and Pat. So, I don't see any objective way that the sully signing was anything but the best option left - or a stop gap. While we've had success with those moves in the past, there was always the ability to improve on it in the future; this time, not so much.

I'm sure if Masai could have waived a magic wand and got Carroll or Ross or both off the Roster and brought on of the PF's he was after, he would have - but he couldn't win out on the targets he was chasing, and now the issue is going forward, it won't even matter anymore if we clear those contracts, it would just save tax in future years, it would not open up capspace given the contracts we signed this last year and this summer and cap holds. While not making bad moves to win now is good, you can't assume any move not made is a bad move, imo. Sometimes, they work out. What is very clear is after this year, when we're now way over the cap, it's gets harder to add talent that we have been chasing the last few years. Its not impossible, we could still package players like Carroll or Ross, with picks and hope to land a real talent upgrade, or one of our young players could just take the league by storm - but I think moves that we tried this offseason for Pau and Anderson are no longer possible, and I think unless we're moving in an upward trajectory, I question the financial resolve of MLSE to stay in the Tax.

tl;dr there were too many alternative to narrow it down to one option other than the status quo, and I'd also say there's a difference between what Masai "chose" and what we ended up with. If Masai was able to simply choose who was on the team and who wasn't, we'd have a much better team,.

[Throwback24]

I guess he had no choice? We're all in on this roster with worthless first round picks coming as our only real flexibility the next few years.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I guess he had no choice? We're all in on this roster with worthless first round picks coming as our only real flexibility the next few years.

As has been said, if you view this off season alone, it's hard to see much other options. But if you view the last few years, with the idea that the factors around this off season should not have been a surprise, and you look back at previous decisions, either to stand pat, or to sign Carroll, or extend Ross, or even draft picks that were made, there were lot's of different choices that could have been made. I mean if you're Masai, you know if you feel your bound to keep DeRozan and you know salary range, and so you know that afterwards adding more talent is going to be harder to do so maybe there should have been more urgency to do something before that deal is signed.

I think so far, you can't complain about the results. But If I look at our situation and lack of flexibility, it doesn't jive with the narrative that we''re a growing team. Yes we're still a piece away, but I don't know see how we're getting that piece? yes we have a lot of young guys, but I don't think they present a brighter future than than they guys playing ahead of them currently. I hope I am wrong. I'd love to see us add that piece through a trade or have one of our young guys be that piece we need. If anything, I don't see anyway things stay the same and we add two picks next year. So something will have to give. If it's just giving up on Bebe or Bruno, to make room, that will be a disappointment.

[RaptorReloaded]

Baiting

[Scase]

This is coming from a place of ignorance. And while I don't know the in's & out's of what goes on in the league, I do know that the Lakers were interested in Demar, even at a max contract. Did we outbid ourselves? I don't know. Maybe we could have shaved off a few million, maybe we would have lost him instead. I don't think it changes up the scene very much, and I do think it was a great asset retention strategy regardless of the price. Demar can easily be flipped to another team for other assets, maybe not super star power but at the very least an unprotected pick. Saving ourselves 5-10 million would be nice, but not a game changer & it doesn't warrant mistrust in Masai who so far has been the best thing that happened to this franchise (or at least on par with Leiweke)

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

He cannot be flipped as easily as some people think, DD fits into a very specific type of team. One we've built around him and he still doesn't thrive. I mean this is the first season he's had that can unequivocally be argued to be a good season in the seven that he's been in the league. The league is moving towards efficient (what DD isn't even close to being), defensive minded (no need to beat this dead horse) and 3pt shooting (another area he severely lacks.) players. He is none of those, and he's got the second largest contract in the league. No team will trade an unprotected lotto pick for a contract that will hamstring the entire franchise. This isn't bargs who was on a decent deal at the end of it. This is a contract whose value depreciates every year as the thing that DD brings to the table at an elite level (FTA) historically declines with age.

Saving ourselves 5-10mil may not sound like much to you but, it's flexibility. The flexibility to potentially move that contract and absorb something else. We lack that. What does warrant mistrust in MU is that over his career his signings have been suspect and this one is no different.

I don't think we could have made a move to make us contenders this offseason. All I can say is that we're much closer to being contenders than what we were before Masai started. He's been building this team up slowly, and even if we want to doomsday everything I think he's got enough tricks up his sleeves to get us to the promised land. At the very least he's been responsible for breaking some franchise records in the regular season and the playoffs.

Really though I think we're one or two young players fulfilling their potential from being a contender. If Powell & Ross turn up this year like never before then we are in the conversation, simply because of their production or even because we can flip them and picks for a star PF

I mean you answered it yourself right? I don't think anyone was realistically expecting a trade to catapult us into contender status this offseason. But, like you said it yourself. It's a slow process.

If we are hoping us becoming contenders hinges on a player that historically coasts and has provided no hints of being way more than he is, and/or a 2nd round player turning into an all-star his second year in the league. man we are worse off than even I thought.

[lolwut]

This is coming from a place of ignorance. And while I don't know the in's & out's of what goes on in the league, I do know that the Lakers were interested in Demar, even at a max contract. Did we outbid ourselves? I don't know. Maybe we could have shaved off a few million, maybe we would have lost him instead. I don't think it changes up the scene very much, and I do think it was a great asset retention strategy regardless of the price. Demar can easily be flipped to another team for other assets, maybe not super star power but at the very least an unprotected pick. Saving ourselves 5-10 million would be nice, but not a game changer & it doesn't warrant mistrust in Masai who so far has been the best thing that happened to this franchise (or at least on par with Leiweke)

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenceIsNotEvidenceOfAbsence

[OakleyDokely]

The option would have been to sign BB, make him your starting C and trade Val for some nice assets.

[Wasp]

This is coming from a place of ignorance. And while I don't know the in's & out's of what goes on in the league, I do know that the Lakers were interested in Demar, even at a max contract. Did we outbid ourselves? I don't know. Maybe we could have shaved off a few million, maybe we would have lost him instead. I don't think it changes up the scene very much, and I do think it was a great asset retention strategy regardless of the price. Demar can easily be flipped to another team for other assets, maybe not super star power but at the very least an unprotected pick. Saving ourselves 5-10 million would be nice, but not a game changer & it doesn't warrant mistrust in Masai who so far has been the best thing that happened to this franchise (or at least on par with Leiweke)

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

He cannot be flipped as easily as some people think, DD fits into a very specific type of team. One we've built around him and he still doesn't thrive. I mean this is the first season he's had that can unequivocally be argued to be a good season in the seven that he's been in the league. The league is moving towards efficient (what DD isn't even close to being), defensive minded (no need to beat this dead horse) and 3pt shooting (another area he severely lacks.) players. He is none of those, and he's got the second largest contract in the league. No team will trade an unprotected lotto pick for a contract that will hamstring the entire franchise. This isn't bargs who was on a decent deal at the end of it. This is a contract whose value depreciates every year as the thing that DD brings to the table at an elite level (FTA) historically declines with age.

Saving ourselves 5-10mil may not sound like much to you but, it's flexibility. The flexibility to potentially move that contract and absorb something else. We lack that. What does warrant mistrust in MU is that over his career his signings have been suspect and this one is no different.

I don't think we could have made a move to make us contenders this offseason. All I can say is that we're much closer to being contenders than what we were before Masai started. He's been building this team up slowly, and even if we want to doomsday everything I think he's got enough tricks up his sleeves to get us to the promised land. At the very least he's been responsible for breaking some franchise records in the regular season and the playoffs.

Really though I think we're one or two young players fulfilling their potential from being a contender. If Powell & Ross turn up this year like never before then we are in the conversation, simply because of their production or even because we can flip them and picks for a star PF

I mean you answered it yourself right? I don't think anyone was realistically expecting a trade to catapult us into contender status this offseason. But, like you said it yourself. It's a slow process.

If we are hoping us becoming contenders hinges on a player that historically coasts and has provided no hints of being way more than he is, and/or a 2nd round player turning into an all-star his second year in the league. man we are worse off than even I thought.

You can't truly believe this. The reason why there's "zero evidence" is because he didn't give any teams a chance to meet with him because he wanted to stay. Saying that there's no evidence that anyone else in the league WOULD EVEN OFFER HIM A CONTACT is absolutely ridiculous. Based on the contracts that were given out to much worse players, it's blatantly obvious that multiple teams would have offered him the max. Allowing your 2nd best player to test the market on the 1% chance that you could save $5m-10m rather than locking him up when you're the only team he's willing to talk to is just plain dumb no matter how you want to spin it.

And, as to your demand that we should have nickel and dimed him, that would have been also been a bad strategy. If he left because we wanted to save $5m-10m over the life of the contract, it wouldn't have been a case of "oh well, guess he wasn't loyal!". It would have been a case of "wow, the Raptors are a cheap organization that were willing to let one of the best and most loyal players in franchise history walk over $5m-10m." It would have permanently damaged our reputation around the league with players and agents. Most importantly, we would have let our 2nd biggest asset walk without getting anything of value in return as the cap space we would have received would have been negligible.

This is real life, not some game theory exercise in the vacuum of a University seminar.

[Scase]

This is coming from a place of ignorance. And while I don't know the in's & out's of what goes on in the league, I do know that the Lakers were interested in Demar, even at a max contract. Did we outbid ourselves? I don't know. Maybe we could have shaved off a few million, maybe we would have lost him instead. I don't think it changes up the scene very much, and I do think it was a great asset retention strategy regardless of the price. Demar can easily be flipped to another team for other assets, maybe not super star power but at the very least an unprotected pick. Saving ourselves 5-10 million would be nice, but not a game changer & it doesn't warrant mistrust in Masai who so far has been the best thing that happened to this franchise (or at least on par with Leiweke)

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenceIsNotEvidenceOfAbsence

It's also proof of nothing, thanking you for moving this discussion along at such a brisk pace.

You can't truly believe this. The reason why there's "zero evidence" is because he didn't give any teams a chance to meet with him because he wanted to stay. Saying that there's no evidence that anyone else in the league WOULD EVEN OFFER HIM A CONTACT is absolutely ridiculous. Based on the contracts that were given out to much worse players, it's blatantly obvious that multiple teams would have offered him the max. Allowing your 2nd best player to test the market on the 1% chance that you could save $5m-10m rather than locking him up when you're the only team he's willing to talk to is just plain dumb no matter how you want to spin it.

And, as to your demand that we should have nickel and dimed him, that would have been also been a bad strategy. If he left because we wanted to save $5m-10m over the life of the contract, it wouldn't have been a case of "oh well, guess he wasn't loyal!". It would have been a case of "wow, the Raptors are a cheap organization that were willing to let one of the best and most loyal players in franchise history walk over $5m-10m." It would have permanently damaged our reputation around the league with players and agents. Most importantly, we would have let our 2nd biggest asset walk without getting anything of value in return as the cap space we would have received would have been negligible.

This is real life, not some game theory exercise in the vacuum of a University seminar.

So where exactly is this crazy loyalty that everyone keeps bragging about coming from?

Oh the fact that he spoke to no other teams? Yeah so much loyalty to get paid through the nose and take the deal. It's a god damned business, if as a player he can't handle the fact that an organization needs to look out for what's best for the organization and if they can get an asset at a lower cost that is better for the organization and he decides to leave, he's not really all that loyal now is he?

I never said to short change him and offer him 60 over 6, I'm saying there is no harm is weighing options. This isn't a decision that should be made lightly it is literally tied into the teams financial flexibility for the next HALF DECADE. It deserves more thought than "LOL HE'S BEEN HERE 6 YEARS, GIVE HIM MONEY".

This isn't Jordan or Lebron or Kobe, this isn't some transcendent talent that won't be seen for another generation. A franchise can risk losing a player of his caliber to retain flexibility.

[lolwut]

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenceIsNotEvidenceOfAbsence

It's also proof of nothing, thanking you for moving this discussion along at such a brisk pace.

Maybe there is proof and you just don't know about it? If you did, then you probably wouldn't be armchair GMing on a forum. The entire premise of your argument is that you don't know something, so you're just going to pick one possible scenario that fits your agenda and call it fact. Nobody can argue against you because nobody has proof that this scenario you picked is untrue.

This is no different from claiming that if Masai doesn't make any moves at the deadline, then it means he didn't try. After all, nobody has a copy of his phone logs, so it's not as if there is proof that he called anybody at all.

Do you admit that there is a possibility other teams could have considered giving him the same deal that we did? If not, then there is no point for anybody to respond to you. Your argument is completely bulletproof.

[SaveTheHens]

This is coming from a place of ignorance. And while I don't know the in's & out's of what goes on in the league, I do know that the Lakers were interested in Demar, even at a max contract. Did we outbid ourselves? I don't know. Maybe we could have shaved off a few million, maybe we would have lost him instead. I don't think it changes up the scene very much, and I do think it was a great asset retention strategy regardless of the price. Demar can easily be flipped to another team for other assets, maybe not super star power but at the very least an unprotected pick. Saving ourselves 5-10 million would be nice, but not a game changer & it doesn't warrant mistrust in Masai who so far has been the best thing that happened to this franchise (or at least on par with Leiweke)

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

He cannot be flipped as easily as some people think, DD fits into a very specific type of team. One we've built around him and he still doesn't thrive. I mean this is the first season he's had that can unequivocally be argued to be a good season in the seven that he's been in the league. The league is moving towards efficient (what DD isn't even close to being), defensive minded (no need to beat this dead horse) and 3pt shooting (another area he severely lacks.) players. He is none of those, and he's got the second largest contract in the league. No team will trade an unprotected lotto pick for a contract that will hamstring the entire franchise. This isn't bargs who was on a decent deal at the end of it. This is a contract whose value depreciates every year as the thing that DD brings to the table at an elite level (FTA) historically declines with age.

Saving ourselves 5-10mil may not sound like much to you but, it's flexibility. The flexibility to potentially move that contract and absorb something else. We lack that. What does warrant mistrust in MU is that over his career his signings have been suspect and this one is no different.

I don't think we could have made a move to make us contenders this offseason. All I can say is that we're much closer to being contenders than what we were before Masai started. He's been building this team up slowly, and even if we want to doomsday everything I think he's got enough tricks up his sleeves to get us to the promised land. At the very least he's been responsible for breaking some franchise records in the regular season and the playoffs.

Really though I think we're one or two young players fulfilling their potential from being a contender. If Powell & Ross turn up this year like never before then we are in the conversation, simply because of their production or even because we can flip them and picks for a star PF

I mean you answered it yourself right? I don't think anyone was realistically expecting a trade to catapult us into contender status this offseason. But, like you said it yourself. It's a slow process.

If we are hoping us becoming contenders hinges on a player that historically coasts and has provided no hints of being way more than he is, and/or a 2nd round player turning into an all-star his second year in the league. man we are worse off than even I thought.

In reference to the early part, there were reports that 6 teams were interested in Derozan, including the Lakers & Warriors. There is zero proof that other teams were uninterested in Derozan, there is zero proof that Derozan would have taken less than the max, and there is zero proof that we outbid ourselves. We both don't know the in's and outs of the league, except your the one making the assumptions & complaining about them as if they were facts.

In reference to the second part. I said nothing about contendor status hinging on Powell or Ross making strides. I simply gave an example of what could happen. We are in a position where multiple things can happen to make us contendors. Maybe it's Powell or Ross, maybe it's JV, maybe it's Demar continuosly improving like he's shown the capacity for. My guess is a major midseason trade will happen, that along with some young players taking strides can give us a good shot at it. No one believed we would be in the ECF last year but it happened. Everyone also assumed we were going to be swept. We managed to go 6 games against the eventual champs. Don't let your mentality of failure see everything as a failure, that is not a correct representation of reality. Ever since you've been a raptor fan this team has never reached these heights. Try to enjoy it while it lasts instead of only seeing it through a failure mentality.

[SaveTheHens]

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenceIsNotEvidenceOfAbsence

It's also proof of nothing, thanking you for moving this discussion along at such a brisk pace.

You can't truly believe this. The reason why there's "zero evidence" is because he didn't give any teams a chance to meet with him because he wanted to stay. Saying that there's no evidence that anyone else in the league WOULD EVEN OFFER HIM A CONTACT is absolutely ridiculous. Based on the contracts that were given out to much worse players, it's blatantly obvious that multiple teams would have offered him the max. Allowing your 2nd best player to test the market on the 1% chance that you could save $5m-10m rather than locking him up when you're the only team he's willing to talk to is just plain dumb no matter how you want to spin it.

And, as to your demand that we should have nickel and dimed him, that would have been also been a bad strategy. If he left because we wanted to save $5m-10m over the life of the contract, it wouldn't have been a case of "oh well, guess he wasn't loyal!". It would have been a case of "wow, the Raptors are a cheap organization that were willing to let one of the best and most loyal players in franchise history walk over $5m-10m." It would have permanently damaged our reputation around the league with players and agents. Most importantly, we would have let our 2nd biggest asset walk without getting anything of value in return as the cap space we would have received would have been negligible.

This is real life, not some game theory exercise in the vacuum of a University seminar.

So where exactly is this crazy loyalty that everyone keeps bragging about coming from?

Oh the fact that he spoke to no other teams? Yeah so much loyalty to get paid through the nose and take the deal. It's a god damned business, if as a player he can't handle the fact that an organization needs to look out for what's best for the organization and if they can get an asset at a lower cost that is better for the organization and he decides to leave, he's not really all that loyal now is he?

I never said to short change him and offer him 60 over 6, I'm saying there is no harm is weighing options. This isn't a decision that should be made lightly it is literally tied into the teams financial flexibility for the next HALF DECADE. It deserves more thought than "LOL HE'S BEEN HERE 6 YEARS, GIVE HIM MONEY".

This isn't Jordan or Lebron or Kobe, this isn't some transcendent talent that won't be seen for another generation. A franchise can risk losing a player of his caliber to retain flexibility.

Man, you like to make assumptions & state them as fact a lot eh? You think that Masai literally went "LOL HE'S BEEN HERE 6 YEARS, GIVE HIM MONEY"?!! Seriously man? Masai is one of the most methodical guys in the league. Real GM's (not Realgmers) put years of thought into decisions. They survey the landscape of what free agents there will be in the future. KD going to the Warriors was a thing that the Warriors were planning as an option years ago! This decision was never taken lightly, the options were weighed out, and the tiny bit of flexibility at the cost of losing Demar was inconsequential to the value he brings to this team. Popovic has even stated that a big part of the Spurs success model is continuity & losing Demar would have ruined that.

You stated yourself that it's a business, if Demar was all about business he would have at least met with other teams to hear out their plans for him & if he had gone to LA I'm sure there would have been great marketing opportunities for him, especially being the only star in LA after the exit of Kobe.

[neurotik]

I think another point people are overlooking is what message not re-signing DD sends to the rest of the players in the league(Raps players included). It says that we as a franchise won't pay market value to our longest serving and most loyal player, who has been an all star two of the past three years, helped lead the team to the most wins in franchise history in back to back seasons, and helped lead the team to its most successful playoff run ever. How many star players do you think will be wanting to sign with or request trades to Toronto then?

[Scase]

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenceIsNotEvidenceOfAbsence

It's also proof of nothing, thanking you for moving this discussion along at such a brisk pace.

Maybe there is proof and you just don't know about it? If you did, then you probably wouldn't be armchair GMing on a forum. The entire premise of your argument is that you don't know something, so you're just going to pick one possible scenario that fits your agenda and call it fact. Nobody can argue against you because nobody has proof that this scenario you picked is untrue.

This is no different from claiming that if Masai doesn't make any moves at the deadline, then it means he didn't try. After all, nobody has a copy of his phone logs, so it's not as if there is proof that he called anybody at all.

Do you admit that there is a possibility other teams could have considered giving him the same deal that we did? If not, then there is no point for anybody to respond to you. Your argument is completely bulletproof.

Absolutely some teams had interest, it was hyperbole my apologies. But, ultimately 29 other teams could have had interest and it makes zero difference. He didn't talk to other teams? Well why bother when the team you're with and have been with your entire career hands you your dream contact on a silver platter.

Had we not done that, who knows maybe the market would've dictated him earning 110/5 instead of 140. But, again we bid against ourselves and no one else.

What do we know?

Well we know that demar never spoke to any other teams who would have offered him a contract. So whether there was interest or not is irrelevant, there was no barometer to gauge his value besides other signings so we just assumed that he was worth 140/5. We bid against ourselves.

That's a fact.

In reference to the early part, there were reports that 6 teams were interested in Derozan, including the Lakers & Warriors. There is zero proof that other teams were uninterested in Derozan, there is zero proof that Derozan would have taken less than the max, and there is zero proof that we outbid ourselves. We both don't know the in's and outs of the league, except your the one making the assumptions & complaining about them as if they were facts.

Except for the fact that he didn't speak to any other teams. Meaning the only bid on the table was from the Toronto Raptors, thereby outbidding themselves and themselves alone. When there is literally no offers from any other sources that is proof. This is not an assumption, it is fact.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2016/06/26/report-demar-derozan-not-scheduling-meetings-teams/

That's a source. That's a fact, not an assumption.

Man, you like to make assumptions & state them as fact a lot eh? You think that Masai literally went "LOL HE'S BEEN HERE 6 YEARS, GIVE HIM MONEY"?!! Seriously man? Masai is one of the most methodical guys in the league. Real GM's (not Realgmers) put years of thought into decisions. They survey the landscape of what free agents there will be in the future. KD going to the Warriors was a thing that the Warriors were planning as an option years ago! This decision was never taken lightly, the options were weighed out, and the tiny bit of flexibility at the cost of losing Demar was inconsequential to the value he brings to this team. Popovic has even stated that a big part of the Spurs success model is continuity & losing Demar would have ruined that.

You stated yourself that it's a business, if Demar was all about business he would have at least met with other teams to hear out their plans for him & if he had gone to LA I'm sure there would have been great marketing opportunities for him, especially being the only star in LA after the exit of Kobe.

Man, you like to assume something is made up instead of a cold hard fact eh?

I've already provided a source with him not meeting up with any other teams. So no, he's not all about business. The business half that needed to be focused on was not him, him focusing on getting the best deal is irrelevant. This is not the Toronto Derozans, it should have been a priority of MU to test out the waters instead of assuming that 140/5 is exactly what he would've gotten and put the Raptors in a potentially better position financially.

Hell I'd have been happier with signing him for the max due to other teams showing them what they think he's worth, at least then there would've been an excuse to giving him a bloated contract. We have the best opportunity to sign him, longest term and most money. Again who else were we bidding against exactly?

[DJ_RnC]

Masai made the wrong move by bringing Demar back. Demar should have resigned not re-signed ayyy

[Basketball_Jones]

A very polarizing, difficult player to evaluate for sure. But the time to trade him was years ago, Masai inherited him and kept him. We are far beyond the point of no return. As far as his efficiency, well he's a low turnover/high usage/average TS% player. Not many players can keep an average TS% on 30 percent usage. Is that worth the third highest contract in the league, hell no. It's what we have to work with, and we can honestly do no better. It's time to move on really, we don't have a better alternative nor will we have one better for maybe 5-6 years from now.

[Johnny Bball]

The Lakers being interested is nothing more than a rumor. There was/is no proof that any other team in the entirety of the league was willing to offer him a contract let alone one as bloated as the one he signed. if we lost him due to a couple million dollars then that disproves the whole "he's so loyal" thing. If we keep him, then we save some money. Again I'm not against keeping him, I'm against just throwing money at him with zero competition.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenceIsNotEvidenceOfAbsence

It's also proof of nothing, thanking you for moving this discussion along at such a brisk pace.

You can't truly believe this. The reason why there's "zero evidence" is because he didn't give any teams a chance to meet with him because he wanted to stay. Saying that there's no evidence that anyone else in the league WOULD EVEN OFFER HIM A CONTACT is absolutely ridiculous. Based on the contracts that were given out to much worse players, it's blatantly obvious that multiple teams would have offered him the max. Allowing your 2nd best player to test the market on the 1% chance that you could save $5m-10m rather than locking him up when you're the only team he's willing to talk to is just plain dumb no matter how you want to spin it.

And, as to your demand that we should have nickel and dimed him, that would have been also been a bad strategy. If he left because we wanted to save $5m-10m over the life of the contract, it wouldn't have been a case of "oh well, guess he wasn't loyal!". It would have been a case of "wow, the Raptors are a cheap organization that were willing to let one of the best and most loyal players in franchise history walk over $5m-10m." It would have permanently damaged our reputation around the league with players and agents. Most importantly, we would have let our 2nd biggest asset walk without getting anything of value in return as the cap space we would have received would have been negligible.

This is real life, not some game theory exercise in the vacuum of a University seminar.

So where exactly is this crazy loyalty that everyone keeps bragging about coming from?

Oh the fact that he spoke to no other teams? Yeah so much loyalty to get paid through the nose and take the deal. It's a god damned business, if as a player he can't handle the fact that an organization needs to look out for what's best for the organization and if they can get an asset at a lower cost that is better for the organization and he decides to leave, he's not really all that loyal now is he?

I never said to short change him and offer him 60 over 6, I'm saying there is no harm is weighing options. This isn't a decision that should be made lightly it is literally tied into the teams financial flexibility for the next HALF DECADE. It deserves more thought than "LOL HE'S BEEN HERE 6 YEARS, GIVE HIM MONEY".

This isn't Jordan or Lebron or Kobe, this isn't some transcendent talent that won't be seen for another generation. A franchise can risk losing a player of his caliber to retain flexibility.

Not signing derozan just to "maintain flexibility" is dumb. we did NOT have significant cap space this summer with or without signing Derozan. We did it using his bird rights and exceeding the cap. Who cares if we pay players over the cap. As for flexibilty, Any player can be traded, Derozan is a valuable player and his contract was not one of the worst signed this summer, whether you choose to believe it or not. Signing derozan keeps an asset. If anything it does do exactly what you decry it doesn't. It maintains flexibilty. At least now we can be exceeding the cap in salaries instead of pinned under it like the last few years, whether we retain Demar or trade Demar, at least the raptors are paying more and have tradeable contracts. And you think the Raps didn't put thought into his signing even though pretty much everyone agrees we got a home town discount at this point?

You question his loyalty yet say organizations need to look after themselves first. Sorry but none of what you propose shows loyalty or leadership.