Next step is not championship...it's automatic playoff advancement

[pbj]

Chisholm wrote an embarassingly bad article about the Raptors roster depth.
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/12/18/one-ujiri-risk-thats-gone-too-far/

You bring up those guys, but there are all part of benches that are inferior to the Raptors. And some of them are complete non-factors (looking at you, Varejao and Dunleavy).

Do you have any examples of veteran big men you'd like to get? It's not a bad idea if one exists.

I think Tim Duncan is available

Ha.

Anyone else?

Just so I'm not dodging the question.. Haslem or Collison are veteran bigs who could be had for peanuts, and almost certainly are more adept at guarding Frye and Love than JV/Bebe have been and have at least some history of being competent team defenders with winning teams.

Obviously I'm not saying give them 20MPG or regular PT at all, but even situationally they're infinitely more useful than Bruno is or ever will be - which is to say, completely without use.

tl;dr - deport Bruno

[Rapcity_11]

I think Tim Duncan is available

Ha.

Anyone else?

Just so I'm not dodging the question.. Haslem or Collison are veteran bigs who could be had for peanuts, and almost certainly are more adept at guarding Frye and Love than JV/Bebe have been and have at least some history of being competent team defenders with winning teams.

Obviously I'm not saying give them 20MPG or regular PT at all, but even situationally they're infinitely more useful than Bruno is or ever will be - which is to say, completely without use.

tl;dr - deport Bruno

If the Raptors are going to play a guy like that, I'd rather just go with PP/Siakam on Frye and deal with the lack of a rim protector and worse rebounding.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Ha.

Anyone else?

Just so I'm not dodging the question.. Haslem or Collison are veteran bigs who could be had for peanuts, and almost certainly are more adept at guarding Frye and Love than JV/Bebe have been and have at least some history of being competent team defenders with winning teams.

Obviously I'm not saying give them 20MPG or regular PT at all, but even situationally they're infinitely more useful than Bruno is or ever will be - which is to say, completely without use.

tl;dr - deport Bruno

If the Raptors are going to play a guy like that, I'd rather just go with PP/Siakam on Frye and deal with the lack of a rim protector and worse rebounding.

Which is why CLE is so successful. Your top 2 USG guys are primarily creators relying on drives, and you surround them with shooters on the perimeter, or one REB big. This has been going on for yrs though, and nothing new.

In essence, and I'm talking a larger picture here rather than micro analysis, the Raptors are like CLE light.

If you don't have a rim protector, youre giving free points to LBJ/KI who are gonna murder you in ISOs/PnR, and if you crowd them and/or add a rim protector, their stretch bigs can murk you too. Tough conundrum, esp given how Frye has killed us lately.

As for your discussion, I'm an advocate of what MU is doing, have young hungry guys at the end of your bench, particularly with high Motors Poeltl/Siakam/etc.. to piece together in case of injuries and develop in lieu of older vets and their stability. Cost controlled assets for multiple yrs is more favorable to me than 1/2 yr deal guys. I can understand either side of the perspective though.

[Mikistan]

To even have a chance at being a true contender or jumping to this next tier, our secondary bench guys (spots 10-15) need to be replaced with veteran specialists. Instead of Jakob, Delon, Bebe, Bruno, and Van Vleet..

...we need guys like RJ, Frye, Dunleavy, Varejao, David West, Raymond Felton, Alan Anderson (just looking at CLE, GSW, LAC as examples)

They're all pretty limited in their capabilities, but far more dependable in filling their specific role than the projects we have at the end of our bench who can barely be counted on to stay on the floor and play passable defense.


Making that switch means committing to this core and going all-in to some extent, which I'm not sure any of us are totally comfortable doing at this point.

We don't know if they can be counted on or not, because they don't get meaningful minutes in the rotation ever.

It takes being up by 29 points at the 4 minute mark for the rookies to come on... because 25 points at the 8 minute mark is too big of a risk for our coach.

Siakam is starting - he's not passable i guess?

Van Fleet is insurance for PG injury.
Delon is injured, and Van Fleet would have been a different player if Delon wasn't.
Jakob is gonna be a player, just give him time to fill in (not 1 offseason bulk)

Bruno tho, I agree, waste of a roster spot since we got him - but he was a good figurehead for pushing the D-league team narrative

[Rapcity_11]

Just so I'm not dodging the question.. Haslem or Collison are veteran bigs who could be had for peanuts, and almost certainly are more adept at guarding Frye and Love than JV/Bebe have been and have at least some history of being competent team defenders with winning teams.

Obviously I'm not saying give them 20MPG or regular PT at all, but even situationally they're infinitely more useful than Bruno is or ever will be - which is to say, completely without use.

tl;dr - deport Bruno

If the Raptors are going to play a guy like that, I'd rather just go with PP/Siakam on Frye and deal with the lack of a rim protector and worse rebounding.

Which is why CLE is so successful. Your top 2 USG guys are primarily creators relying on drives, and you surround them with shooters on the perimeter, or one REB big. This has been going on for yrs though, and nothing new.

In essence, and I'm talking a larger picture here rather than micro analysis, the Raptors are like CLE light.

If you don't have a rim protector, youre giving free points to LBJ/KI who are gonna murder you in ISOs/PnR, and if you crowd them and/or add a rim protector, their stretch bigs can murk you too. Tough conundrum, esp given how Frye has killed us lately.

As for your discussion, I'm an advocate of what MU is doing, have young hungry guys at the end of your bench, particularly with high Motors Poeltl/Siakam/etc.. to piece together in case of injuries and develop in lieu of older vets and their stability. Cost controlled assets for multiple yrs is more favorable to me than 1/2 yr deal guys. I can understand either side of the perspective though.

Defending Cleveland is such a god damn struggle. It's funny how many people bring up Cousins as if he's the answer to beating Cleveland. A guy like Millsap helps a ton more.

I like the idea of having a vet specialist on the bench. But when you actually think about which guys are available and the fact that most of them are washed-up (or expensive), I don't see the appeal in reality.

[MavCarter]

Yuck, you only go after multiple vets when you have a core that can for sure lead you to a championship. Lowry/DD aren't there. I like masai's approach of filling the roster with young players that we can develop and use as long term pieces or use as trade pieces down the line. If we aren't going to tank for multiple top 5 picks the next best bet on landing a star is drafting,developing, and then trading those young players for one.

[slothrop8]

To even have a chance at being a true contender or jumping to this next tier, our secondary bench guys (spots 10-15) need to be replaced with veteran specialists. Instead of Jakob, Delon, Bebe, Bruno, and Van Vleet..

...we need guys like RJ, Frye, Dunleavy, Varejao, David West, Raymond Felton, Alan Anderson (just looking at CLE, GSW, LAC as examples)

They're all pretty limited in their capabilities, but far more dependable in filling their specific role than the projects we have at the end of our bench who can barely be counted on to stay on the floor and play passable defense.


Making that switch means committing to this core and going all-in to some extent, which I'm not sure any of us are totally comfortable doing at this point.

We don't know if they can be counted on or not, because they don't get meaningful minutes in the rotation ever.

It takes being up by 29 points at the 4 minute mark for the rookies to come on... because 25 points at the 8 minute mark is too big of a risk for our coach.

Siakam is starting - he's not passable i guess?

Van Fleet is insurance for PG injury.
Delon is injured, and Van Fleet would have been a different player if Delon wasn't.
Jakob is gonna be a player, just give him time to fill in (not 1 offseason bulk)

Bruno tho, I agree, waste of a roster spot since we got him - but he was a good figurehead for pushing the D-league team narrative

The composition of spots 9-15 on our roster is exactly what it should be until we have a championship calibre 1-8 - and really a championship calibre 1-3. We'd be crazy to waste roster spots on vets with no upside on this point. Those spots should be taken by developmental projects with upside - anything else is a waste of a roster spot. Masai has been very smart to recognize our true limitations and use our roster accordingly.

[MavCarter]

Masai is most likely taking the ainge route of collecting young players and trying to trade for a star down the line. The problem with that is it probably requires more luck than actual tanking. The stars have to align to pull something like what ainge pulled in 07 off. You need 3 legit stars to win a championship in todays league and by the time we build up the assets DD might be the only star we have left. That would leave us needing to luck into 2 other stars via trade around the same time

[ATLTimekeeper]

Masai is going to be tailing Ainge until those Nets picks are spent. I think it's probably smarter to go after a UFA risk like Millsap, see if they'll throw in Thabo and then you have a better shot at beating the Cavs this year while still retaining depth and some youth (those flexible assets). It's unlikely we're going to beat the Cavs either way, but LeBron's minute totals are ridiculous so an injury here or there could lead to a decline. It's not the best way to build a team, but we do happen to have fallen on a very good team and it looks sustainable for at least a few more years.

In some dream scenario where Sacramento doesn't accept the Celtics' better offer (or any other team that might jump in), and Masai throws the kitchen sink at them, we're still dealing with a scenario where Kyle might bolt and then we're left with a roster not all that dissimilar to the current Kings.

[pbj]

To even have a chance at being a true contender or jumping to this next tier, our secondary bench guys (spots 10-15) need to be replaced with veteran specialists. Instead of Jakob, Delon, Bebe, Bruno, and Van Vleet..

...we need guys like RJ, Frye, Dunleavy, Varejao, David West, Raymond Felton, Alan Anderson (just looking at CLE, GSW, LAC as examples)

They're all pretty limited in their capabilities, but far more dependable in filling their specific role than the projects we have at the end of our bench who can barely be counted on to stay on the floor and play passable defense.


Making that switch means committing to this core and going all-in to some extent, which I'm not sure any of us are totally comfortable doing at this point.

We don't know if they can be counted on or not, because they don't get meaningful minutes in the rotation ever.

It takes being up by 29 points at the 4 minute mark for the rookies to come on... because 25 points at the 8 minute mark is too big of a risk for our coach.

Siakam is starting - he's not passable i guess?

Van Fleet is insurance for PG injury.
Delon is injured, and Van Fleet would have been a different player if Delon wasn't.
Jakob is gonna be a player, just give him time to fill in (not 1 offseason bulk)

Bruno tho, I agree, waste of a roster spot since we got him - but he was a good figurehead for pushing the D-league team narrative

The composition of spots 9-15 on our roster is exactly what it should be until we have a championship calibre 1-8 - and really a championship calibre 1-3. We'd be crazy to waste roster spots on vets with no upside on this point. Those spots should be taken by developmental projects with upside - anything else is a waste of a roster spot. Masai has been very smart to recognize our true limitations and use our roster accordingly.

Yes I agree, which is what I said a few posts ago. I was simply arguing that regardless of our regular season record, we have no business competing with CLE or GSW who are far more committed to contending than we are in terms of roster spots and assets.

And I think the same applies to the 'automatic advancement' idea that djsunyc raised. Even as a second seed, we still have issues matching up against some pretty basic offensive concepts - due in part to the fact that we can only use the same 10 guys, regardless of who we are playing. Which means depending on who we get in the 1st round, it could go 5 or 7 games.

[VanWest82]

Bogut is atainable but he can't defend on the perimeter. The other guys carry steep asking price.

Agreed but he'd still be an upgrade over JV and improve the odds of making it back to ECF (which should be the min goal IMO).

Neol would cost a lot as he's an RFA. Ibaka and Favors, I'm not so sure. More and more it looks like Favors might be the odd man out in Utah, especially if they extend George Hill which it looks like they will. Assuming Favors can still move (post knee injury) a lot of teams will be calling, but I bet he could be had for a couple future firsts (Clips, our 2018). Same with Ibaka. Orlando may find themselves virtually out of the playoff picture by end of January, and Ibaka isn't going to re-sign there anyway. The Ibaka/Dipo trade was a dumb one by any measure, but Hennigan can save face if he comes out of it with a pick or two.

Both those guys would vastly improve our chances against Cleveland. If Kyrie gets hurt, who knows.

Edit: just wanted to add that normally I'd never advocate trading picks, though we're in exactly the spot to do so if you're ever going to go that route (i.e. pseudo contender that's knocking on the door, most of the main guys under contract long-term, lots of interesting young guys on rookie deals) We only have so many roster spots.

[mieshpal]

There is no correct way to build and progress your franchise. Every winning franchise has a different design and path to success.

Yes you can try to emulate other franchises, but at the end of the day no build will develop the same.

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[Patman]

Automatic playoff advancement is a nice goal, but I don't think it necessarily means you're closer to a title. The playoffs are matchup-based. It's like rock, paper, scissors. After the Warriors and Cavs, there's a chasm. Even the next tier of teams (SAS, LAC, us) are just as likely to get kicked out of the first round as they are to advance to the CF's, based on match-ups.

The teams that have playoff aspirations can either build their to specialize against playing against their conference's juggernaut (i.e. increase your team's ceiling), or just try to build a well-rounded team (increase your floor). For example, if we make moves based on trying to match up with CLE, it can leave us more vulnerable against another type of team we could face in the 1st or 2nd round, and we might not even advance enough to get to face CLE.

[Mack11]

not gonna sit here and pretend like i know how to get us to a championship level.. not sure at this point if its bad coaching/preparation or we just simply dont have the right impact players. Really hard to tell. We play defense in spurts now and increased our offensive rating this year..why? cause we lost bismack?

i just hope we pull a pistons and with increased time playing together and hopefully adding someone by sheer luck that we can break through that treadmill barrier thats blocking us