OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[2019nbachamps]

Why did Shanahan choose KD over Lou? He wanted a weak yes man? Lou is one of the best GMs in NHL history.

[bballsparkin]

I don't follow closely enough to say, but was it a mistake choosing Dubas over Lou Lamoriello? Would we be further ahead with Lou by now?

Maybe, but he hasnt' done great on the Islanders. Traded many FRP's.

[will]

From Shanahan's presser, he needs to go also. This is about money or indecision? LOL recognize the real on ice issues. What happened to Shanahan anyways?

Too soon for the Craig Janney jokes?

[tms]

Just watched the presser and thought it was fantastic. Shanny asserted his leadership (finally?). If the players feel more of a connection to Dubas, that's probably not a good thing. Shanahan is a HOFer. Dubas has/had never played hockey at all. Probably should have been let go sooner, if anything.

But mannnn... checking out some of these articles and I'd love to promote Wickenheiser. Shanny said he'd target candidates with experience- which makes sense to me too- but she might be my one exception. She's already on board, has worked with a lot of the kids, and just so happens to be one of the GOATs. I don't know about her Capology IQ but that could be exciting.

[will]

Just watched the presser and thought it was fantastic. Shanny asserted his leadership (finally?). If the players feel more of a connection to Dubas, that's probably not a good thing. Shanahan is a HOFer. Dubas has/had never played hockey at all. Probably should have been let go sooner, if anything.

But mannnn... checking out some of these articles and I'd love to promote Wickenheiser. Shanny said he'd target candidates with experience- which makes sense to me too- but she might be my one exception. She's already on board, has worked with a lot of the kids, and just so happens to be one of the GOATs. I don't know about her Capology IQ but that could be exciting.

Yeah, there are different levels.

To jump straight into the Leafs GM role is a different beast.

Need to go with someone with experience here. Shanahan basically has 2 years to make it happen before he gets the sack. Be stunned if he went with Wickenheiser.

[Johnny Bball]

Lmao... after 9 years Dubas couldn't be straight up and tried to play Shanhan and Shanhan just disgusted with him. Dubas just **** up. He just Nick Nursed himself.

[Johnny Bball]

Just watched the presser and thought it was fantastic. Shanny asserted his leadership (finally?). If the players feel more of a connection to Dubas, that's probably not a good thing. Shanahan is a HOFer. Dubas has/had never played hockey at all. Probably should have been let go sooner, if anything.

But mannnn... checking out some of these articles and I'd love to promote Wickenheiser. Shanny said he'd target candidates with experience- which makes sense to me too- but she might be my one exception. She's already on board, has worked with a lot of the kids, and just so happens to be one of the GOATs. I don't know about her Capology IQ but that could be exciting.

So many of the old Toronto media clowns will find a way to get themselves fired if that happens.

[WaltFrazier]

This Shanahan presser is fun!

Just saw it finally, just now on Sports Center. Wow, the level of detail and nuance that Shanahan opened up about. Imagine if Masai went into that kind of detail when he fired Casey, or Nick

[WaltFrazier]

Imagine Hayley does get the job, and Becky the Raps coaching job.

[will]

Imagine Hayley does get the job, and Becky the Raps coaching job.

Kind of like pascal and vv are 1A and 1B.

[will]

This Shanahan presser is fun!

Just saw it finally, just now on Sports Center. Wow, the level of detail and nuance that Shanahan opened up about. Imagine if Masai went into that kind of detail when he fired Casey, or Nick

Shanahan gave use a damn play by play of how this unfolded - from his view.

After a few hours of this sinking in, it seems that there was a great level of pettiness from Shanahan and Dubas/his agent.

Such a shame it ended like this.

Shanahan certainly put himself on the clock/hot seat by giving Dubas the sack.

Brad Trevliving, please.

[C_Money]

Is Shanahan the Leaves version of Masai?

[tecumseh18]

This Shanahan presser is fun!

Just saw it finally, just now on Sports Center. Wow, the level of detail and nuance that Shanahan opened up about. Imagine if Masai went into that kind of detail when he fired Casey, or Nick

Well, Shanny is trying to cover his own ass. This was a terrible thing to happen on the eve of negotiations with two of their big stars.

But it sounds like Dubas was running the show, with input from scouts and the President. It makes me compare this to the Raptors front office. Same ownership, same role definition? Has the soul-less cap wizard Bobby Webster been basically running things for the last few years, with occasional input from Masai? Is that why the Raptors seem so rudderless? Both franchises have been burning through draft picks to make win-now moves, despite the fact that they've usually done well with their draft picks. But the technocrats in charge don't seem to respect that part of the job of managing a team.

Hmm. I would think that Bobby might be vulnerable. When does his contract expire?

[fbalmeida]

Shocking. But ultimately, I'm ok with it, considering it clarifies who may be to blame going forward. Dubas wanted more money and autonomy, and you could argue if that was reasonable or not. In the end, Shanny didn't agree with it and, as he said several times throughout his presser, had already started looking elsewhere. The rest was theatre.

OK. Fine.

But make no mistake: the next one is on you Shanny.

Proceed...

Dubas was asking for quite a raise if the numbers that were reported are true. That's more or less Dubas saying: "I don't want to continue as the GM, but I don't want to be frontal about it, but I also don't want to make an obviously non-serious counter-offer."

I think canning Spezza, and not making room for him in the organization is a mistake. Nothing but selfless dedication and competence from him and he gets hit in the crossfire.

I see many a mindless puckhead cheering this spectacle on. They wanted someone to get the axe, instead of carrying on with a path of incremental improvement and Dubas' learning curve. So Dubas, Spezza, and apparently the entire Marlies coaching staff has gotten the axe.

What Spezza getting canned tells me, and also what I can tell from Shanahan's comments on Dubas, is that there was no hockey-based criteria involved in these decisions. It's all personal.

I just hope the puckheads will be able to stomach the next imbecilic 2nd coming of John Ferguson Jr. The initial shortlists of potential successors is nauseating.

[Raps in 4]

Shocking. But ultimately, I'm ok with it, considering it clarifies who may be to blame going forward. Dubas wanted more money and autonomy, and you could argue if that was reasonable or not. In the end, Shanny didn't agree with it and, as he said several times throughout his presser, had already started looking elsewhere. The rest was theatre.

OK. Fine.

But make no mistake: the next one is on you Shanny.

Proceed...

Dubas was asking for quite a raise if the numbers that were reported are true. That's more or less Dubas saying: "I don't want to continue as the GM, but I don't want to be frontal about it, but I also don't want to make an obviously non-serious counter-offer."

I think canning Spezza, and not making room for him in the organization is a mistake. Nothing but selfless dedication and competence from him and he gets hit in the crossfire.

I see many a mindless puckhead cheering this spectacle on. They wanted someone to get the axe, instead of carrying on with a path of incremental improvement and Dubas' learning curve. So Dubas, Spezza, and apparently the entire Marlies coaching staff has gotten the axe.

What Spezza getting canned tells me, and also what I can tell from Shanahan's comments on Dubas, is that there was no hockey-based criteria involved in these decisions. It's all personal.

I just hope the puckheads will be able to stomach the next imbecilic 2nd coming of John Ferguson Jr. The initial shortlists of potential successors is nauseating.

I'm usually not a fan of firing the GM but keeping the president on. Granted, I feel Dubas had more autonomy than other Toronto GMs (Bobby and Ross), but he still had to answer to Shanahan. Ideally, he'd be gone too.

[Inklink]

Why did Shanahan choose KD over Lou? He wanted a weak yes man? Lou is one of the best GMs in NHL history.

Dubas was his assistant for like 4 years and did a great job with the Marlies. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to be made GM. Lou hasn't been anything special in long Island and still seems to have bull power hungry rules for his team. He's made terrible trades like third line centers for 1st round picks and traded/extended Horvat on a terrible contract. **** around with Matthews and marner on generally accepted entry level contract bonuses (which is why I think they didn't give any breaks to the Leafs in their second contracts).

[GQStylin]

Tavares is just an example of it is possible for some Toronto born star players to return. Generally though that is not the case.

Its possible but it doesn't happen all that often that a GTA or Ontario born star player specifically wants to return to play for one of the Ontario teams the way Tavares did let alone trying to sign non-Canadian star players and getting them to want to play in Canada. It doesn't mean stars won't sign with Canadian teams, but in many if not most cases it certainly isn't their first choice and they likely won't take a discount to do so. Just sucks because it makes Canadian teams less competitive.

If Matthews signs in Arizona, I wouldn't be surprised to see the City flip on the arena deal. If Matthews cares about winning, why would he stay with an organization that has not won a Cup, or even been to a finals since 1967? I don't think Matthews cares about winning all that much. I think money and lifestyle are higher on his list.

If Matthews signed with Arizona that would make ZERO difference in helping the Yotes get an arena deal somewhere in the state. They would still be on the verge of moving as they are now. We're talking about billion dollar arena/surrounding development projects here and I doubt one player would make any impact on those kinds of deals. If the Yotes were a top NHL team then that might perhaps make some difference although even then not too much.

I can't even recall what we were arguing about here

I think it was something about popular big cities having a easier time of attracting good players as long as they're a decently run organization. The Rangers have been doing this for many years now.

I think you are too focused on the averaging 2 goals a game. What I said is teams need to be able to win low scoring close games. No team currently in the league even averages 2 goals a game. The point is Cup winners have to have an average to good offense and great defense. Teams that are great on offense and weak on defense (Leafs, Capitals during most of their stretch) tend not to win.

The teams I listed were all average to good offences, and very strong on the backend.

I'm focused on the 2 goals a game because that's what cost the Leafs the series against the Panthers. You can't win when your opponent scoring more than 2 goals in a game automatically means you've lost because your own team can't score 2+ goals to try and make a comeback. In the 2nd round the Leafs allowed the 3rd fewest goals compared to everyone else with only the Canes and Panthers beating them by allowing a couple fewer. However they were AT THE BOTTOM when it came to scoring goals at 10 goals in the 2nd round with only the Panthers being anywhere near them with 14. The Oilers scored 19 and every other team score 20+.

Despite making some mistakes both the Leafs goaltending and defense held Florida to the 2nd fewest goals in the second round so they did their job. If any of the Leafs core had showed up even a little bit they could've easily have beaten the Panthers. Instead they were incapable of scoring when they needed it the most and that was the difference between winning and losing a series.

And again I ask you looking through the list of Stanley Cup champs for the past 30-40 years and find me a championship team that could score 2 goals or less for the majority of their run and still win the cup? Can you find even ONE example of that happening?

Leafs aren't a great team. If they were, they would have made it out of the 1st round more than once in 7 seasons. Capitals, while not winning for many years, at least made it to later rounds throughout those early seasons.

Don't worry, the way MLSE operates with the Leafs, you may get your way, they will over reach in signing the core back, and experience another 7 seasons of 1st round losses. The reason I will continue to follow the Raps over the Leafs.

The Leafs are a very good team that's capable of being a great team if their top players could show up consistently. As for the not getting out of the 1st round sometimes they were unlucky and sometimes they choked, but its not like they were completely outclassed most of the time. Again look at the Caps and all their great teams and yet they've only been out of the 2nd round ONCE in Ovi's entire career. They were able to put it together for that one season and win the cup and now they're back to being 1st or 2nd round fodder or as in this season not even a playoff team.

The NHL playoffs is tough and unpredicatable and sometimes even really good teams can not make it far.

Yes, Messier was a decisive factor in all of his Cup wins. Think of him as a Jimmy Butler. Type of player that gets it done in the playoffs. Equivalent for Gretzky is probably Durant. Superstar offensive player, that needed a lot of help to win in the playoffs.

If the Rangers swapped Messier for Gretzky, no way they win that Cup.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A great NHL team is like a good gourmet dish where you have different ingredients being blended together really well. Messier is one kind of ingredient and Gretzky is another kind of ingredient and both are important to making that dish good. I'm not convinced that Gretzky on the '94 team wouldn't have won the cup as well and Messier on the '93 LA team wouldn't have still lost in the finals against Montreal.

One time you could definitely say that not having that player on your team was the difference between winning and losing is the '93 Habs when Patrick Roy played out of his mind and led the Habs to a cup win where they would never have won without him that year.

7 years is a long time. Their careers might only be 14-15 seasons, and their peak performance could be nearing the end. At 26 and 27, they aren't all that young anymore. Longer the team waits to trade any of them, the less value they have on the market, and the risk they could sign elsewhere in FA.

26 years old is still in the peak prime of their careers for most NHL players. You're old enough to have experience in playing in the NHL and know how tough it is and you're still plenty young enough to compete with everyone at your best. Most star players are still very far from going on the decline in their mid to late 20s and if you can stay healthy and fit you can easily play well into your mid to late 30s as a very good player.

Avs may perform well in the season, but how many playoff runs will they have without players like Landeskog & Kadri?

Avs have had more than one time where they've been without Landeskog and they've been fine. As for Kadri you need to stop overvaluing him. He's a good player and he helped the Avs to win their cup no doubt, but now that he's off the Avs and with the Flames he at least for his first year there hasn't produced the same as he did the previous season. In fact last season was the first time he averaged better than point per game and now he's back to his career norm of being a 50-60 pt player.

Marner is being paid to be that level of impact player, and as you have described above, to finish the play (score the goal), Marner relies on another player. The truly great players, that win in the NHL, are the ones that can finish the play themselves (score the big goal), in addition to creating opportunities for others.

If Marner were making closer to $6M, he would be more evenly valued for his role on the team. At $11M he is not. And the reason the Leafs continue to underperform in the playoffs.

Marner has never been counted on to be a top goal scorer for the Leafs even though he's improved the past couple of years from being a 20 goal scorer to now a 30 goal scorer. His main job has ALWAYS been to be the puck mover and playmaker when he's on the ice. Guys like Tavares, Matthews and Nylander are suppose to the main goal scorers. At any rate he still improved and became more of a goal scoring threat in addition to being good penalty killer and powerplay guy.

If anything its Matthews that needs someone to help him to be successful. Marner and Nylander can both create for themselves as well for others while Matthews is much more limited doing both because of his lack of speed. Its not like he can't create for his teammates which he's good at, but he definitely lacks the speed and agility that McDavid or even Nylander has where he can just take the puck down the ice himself and make a big play all by himself. Knies for a bigger player seems to have decent speed and good moves and if Matthews had even that he'd be closer to McDavid level.

[GQStylin]

Dubas was asking for quite a raise if the numbers that were reported are true. That's more or less Dubas saying: "I don't want to continue as the GM, but I don't want to be frontal about it, but I also don't want to make an obviously non-serious counter-offer."

Although its abit weird for Dubas to be asking for more money at this point of the negotiations rather than much earlier its kinda crazy that Masai is getting like 15 million a year while Dubas having to do much more was offered 4 million. Even if he was rumored to be wanting 6 million, that's still a bargain for how much work he does compared to what Masai does.

I mean seriously Masai's job mostly seems to be doing marketing and charity/community work than having to manage the Raps much. A 'busy' trade deadline would be him moving a couple of players around and he only has to deal with two rounds in the draft. As for free agency? Just try to sign or trade for another couple of guys and that's about it.

Compare that to being a Leafs GM where you have to prepare for sometimes a huge draft where you might have a ton of picks to use, a busy trade deadline and then a busy free agency. Then of course you also have to constantly worry about the salary cap and making sure any moves you make keeps you under that cap. And this doesn't even include constantly scouting and signing new players that can help your team or the Marlies and making sure the prospects you drafted are developing properly. So much more work to do for so much less money.

I think canning Spezza, and not making room for him in the organization is a mistake. Nothing but selfless dedication and competence from him and he gets hit in the crossfire.

Spezza wasn't fired. He resigned after Dubas left. Who knows maybe he didn't want to stay without Dubas or he didn't think he had a role with the Leafs after Dubas left or maybe resigned before he thought he might get fired etc.

I see many a mindless puckhead cheering this spectacle on. They wanted someone to get the axe, instead of carrying on with a path of incremental improvement and Dubas' learning curve. So Dubas, Spezza, and apparently the entire Marlies coaching staff has gotten the axe.

Moore was kinda crappy as Marlies coach so losing him isn't a big deal. I do agree that while it sucked that the Leafs didn't accomplish much more in the playoffs under Dubas that the team in general was headed in the right direction and the foundation of the franchise is pretty good right now with a pretty good prospect pool to look foward to as well as Dubas leaving the team with no bad long term contracts.

[PushDaRock]

It's looking like autonomy played a big part in this as well, basically shades of Alex Anthopoulos where both ended up giving up their dream jobs at least in part due to not having full autonomy.

[2019nbachamps]

Dubas was asking for quite a raise if the numbers that were reported are true. That's more or less Dubas saying: "I don't want to continue as the GM, but I don't want to be frontal about it, but I also don't want to make an obviously non-serious counter-offer."

Although its abit weird for Dubas to be asking for more money at this point of the negotiations rather than much earlier its kinda crazy that Masai is getting like 15 million a year while Dubas having to do much more was offered 4 million. Even if he was rumored to be wanting 6 million, that's still a bargain for how much work he does compared to what Masai does.

I mean seriously Masai's job mostly seems to be doing marketing and charity/community work than having to manage the Raps much. A 'busy' trade deadline would be him moving a couple of players around and he only has to deal with two rounds in the draft. As for free agency? Just try to sign or trade for another couple of guys and that's about it.

Compare that to being a Leafs GM where you have to prepare for sometimes a huge draft where you might have a ton of picks to use, a busy trade deadline and then a busy free agency. Then of course you also have to constantly worry about the salary cap and making sure any moves you make keeps you under that cap. And this doesn't even include constantly scouting and signing new players that can help your team or the Marlies and making sure the prospects you drafted are developing properly. So much more work to do for so much less money.

I think canning Spezza, and not making room for him in the organization is a mistake. Nothing but selfless dedication and competence from him and he gets hit in the crossfire.

Spezza wasn't fired. He resigned after Dubas left. Who knows maybe he didn't want to stay without Dubas or he didn't think he had a role with the Leafs after Dubas left or maybe resigned before he thought he might get fired etc.

I see many a mindless puckhead cheering this spectacle on. They wanted someone to get the axe, instead of carrying on with a path of incremental improvement and Dubas' learning curve. So Dubas, Spezza, and apparently the entire Marlies coaching staff has gotten the axe.

Moore was kinda crappy as Marlies coach so losing him isn't a big deal. I do agree that while it sucked that the Leafs didn't accomplish much more in the playoffs under Dubas that the team in general was headed in the right direction and the foundation of the franchise is pretty good right now with a pretty good prospect pool to look foward to as well as Dubas leaving the team with no bad long term contracts.

Reasons Masai makes way more:
-more experience and won a title
-president role
-nba brings in more money than nhl. Average NBA team generates $300m in annual revenue vs $200m for NHL. Raptors estimated valuation is $3b vs $2b for Leafs.