Tank World Order (The Remix Vol. IV)

[KL78192020]

This is not the year to tank. Rather cut our losses and have the pick back for 2025.

You can have both. It's just another wasted year if they don't start now.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Lol there's been far more than four volumes. Ten years ago we destroyed the tank after the Rudy trade and we'll do it again.

[Jcity08]

I dont care if we convey this year or not, my biggest concern is what we decide to do by the trade deadline, we cannot go into the offseason with the Siakam contract issue looming.

We need him moved for picks & pieces by no later than feb 8. OG needs to go to Indiana for whatever picks and pieces we can get too.

And then just let the chips fall where they may. If we get into the top 4, great, if not and we convey, it sucks but at least we recouped some value going forward.

[Spida888]

I’ve been on tWo since the Tampa year but it makes no sense this year.

With only top 6 protection and possibly dropping 4 lottery spots (like DET last year), we would have to be in the bottom 2 to ensure we keep our pick.

There’s too many trash teams to compete for a bottom 2 spot.

That said, we better not make any more win now moves like do a 2025 pick swap for Brogdon.

[PhilBlackson]

I dont care if we convey this year or not, my biggest concern is what we decide to do by the trade deadline, we cannot go into the offseason with the Siakam contract issue looming.

We need him moved for picks & pieces by no later than feb 8. OG needs to go to Indiana for whatever picks and pieces we can get too.

And then just let the chips fall where they may. If we get into the top 4, great, if not and we convey, it sucks but at least we recouped some value going forward.

I'm not sure that OG needs to go specifically to IND (although I do love Mathurin & Jarace) as targets but yeah I think the vast majority of the fanbase now thinks it's already overdue that we take what should be the OBVIOUS path of rebuilding.

They simply can NOT even so much as sniff taking the risk of allowing Pascal to make the decision especially after you just spent the last 2 years publicly shopping him AND not signing him to an extension he basically begged for and not so much as even saying that's what they want -- but instead basically prove you even deserve to be here. What the hell kinda franchise player gets treated that way?! You think he & his camp are just gonna forget that?! Idc if they try to sabotage his trade market again which is a MAJOR POINT...

--*THIS TEAM SHOULD NOT WAIT UNTIL THE DEADLINE WHEN PASCAL'S CAMP CAN AGAIN TRY TO SABOTAGE HIS VALUE, THEY SHOULD PULL THE TRIGGER NOW BEFORE THEY EVEN GET THE CHANCE --

They need to stop f*cking around before this blows up in their face. Yeah you might have to take it on the chin and lose your pick this year but good chance you wouldn't & if you made the step out of the bottom 6 of next year's draft, guess what?! You don't have to sweat SA getting Cooper Flagg, he's not gonna be on the board then & if they hit on the next draft that's just tough & you deal with it. But you simply can not under any circumstance lose Pascal for absolutely nothing, you'll have completely F*CKED yourself because you drafted Scottie and let all the assets you needed available to trade for pieces you could've better built around him but instead you left the cupboards completely bare, nah that's utterly unacceptable. He MUST be traded and asap imo.

I'm fine with keeping or trading OG depending on the package (ie/ we end up with Mathurin (IND) & Johnson (ATL)) I don't love it but I think the 3 of them at least have high enough potential individually that the end result has the potential to be better than now but you also take back more control of the situation. I'd be 1000% confident that if we developed Ben & Jalen they'd become every bit as valuable as Pascal & OG by the time they're 26-30 years old. So you just buy more time AND that's not even factoring whatever extra young pieces you might get in the trade or additional young players you end up drafting from the picks you get in those deals, who's to say you don't add another high level prospect or two?! You don't think is we're in the top 6 of this draft, with whatever extra draft picks or ANY of the other young players we wouldn't add another good young player?! There's just obvious room for growth, where as we already established this team we have now is clearly at a dead end, they can only go but so far and it literally will cost you more than what's it's worth (ie/ become a repeat lux tax offender just to be a team barely scrapping into a Play In year & year out). Nah that ain't it. Stop overthinking it & just pull the damn trigger already!

[PhilBlackson]

I’ve been on tWo since the Tampa year but it makes no sense this year.

With only top 6 protection and possibly dropping 4 lottery spots (like DET last year), we would have to be in the bottom 2 to ensure we keep our pick.

There’s too many trash teams to compete for a bottom 2 spot.

That said, we better not make any more win now moves like do a 2025 pick swap for Brogdon.

The team just has to take that on the chin.

How I see it is whether we were drafting top 6 in this draft...or...*OUTSIDE the top 6 in 2025 (remember only conveys outside of the top 6), we'll probably have about equal odds of drafting a really good young player. Maybe I don't know enough about the 25' Draft Class but all I know is Cooper Flagg & Boozer (who are better prospects than top of this draft yes) for now but I haven't heard rumblings that it's some mega deep draft class with seemingly multiple all-stars. I think our odds of getting a really good player in the top 6 of this draft are just as likely as getting one outside of the top 6 of next years so I'd rather get a top talent here sooner than later personally.

I wouldn't complain if we got one of Sarr (especially), Holland or Collier next year. Not to mention we'll be getting picks back in whatever trades we make that we'll still have opportunity to find more talent nevermind whichever young player we're bringing back as the center of the trade. But I'm not letting the chance of losing a non-top 6 pick completely f*ck my franchise by holding onto a grenade that's about to explode in my face if I don't get rid of it first. The downside of not making the trade FAR outweighs conveying the pick this year or next.

[mihaic]

I’ve been on tWo since the Tampa year but it makes no sense this year.

With only top 6 protection and possibly dropping 4 lottery spots (like DET last year), we would have to be in the bottom 2 to ensure we keep our pick.

There’s too many trash teams to compete for a bottom 2 spot.

That said, we better not make any more win now moves like do a 2025 pick swap for Brogdon.

Realistically a team in 4th is unlikely to drop more than twice. A team in 1st can definitely drop 3 spots.

Reason is, teams below 7th dont have much chance to move up

[Spida888]

I’ve been on tWo since the Tampa year but it makes no sense this year.

With only top 6 protection and possibly dropping 4 lottery spots (like DET last year), we would have to be in the bottom 2 to ensure we keep our pick.

There’s too many trash teams to compete for a bottom 2 spot.

That said, we better not make any more win now moves like do a 2025 pick swap for Brogdon.

The team just has to take that on the chin.

How I see it is whether we were drafting top 6 in this draft...or...*OUTSIDE the top 6 in 2025 (remember only conveys outside of the top 6), we'll probably have about equal odds of drafting a really good young player. Maybe I don't know enough about the 25' Draft Class but all I know is Cooper Flagg & Boozer (who are better prospects than top of this draft yes) for now but I haven't heard rumblings that it's some mega deep draft class with seemingly multiple all-stars. I think our odds of getting a really good player in the top 6 of this draft are just as likely as getting one outside of the top 6 of next years so I'd rather get a top talent here sooner than later personally.

I wouldn't complain if we got one of Sarr (especially), Holland or Collier next year. Not to mention we'll be getting picks back in whatever trades we make that we'll still have opportunity to find more talent nevermind whichever young player we're bringing back as the center of the trade. But I'm not letting the chance of losing a non-top 6 pick completely f*ck my franchise by holding onto a grenade that's about to explode in my face if I don't get rid of it first. The downside of not making the trade FAR outweighs conveying the pick this year or next.

Yeah, to clarify, I’m not saying keep this crap team and risk losing OG/Pascal for nothing in FA. I’m all about trading those guys for prospects/picks.

I’m just not rooting for losses like past years because it’s unrealistic we will keep our pick this year.

[microjacklin]

Since it's TWO topic, just reminder that even in 2006, there's Aldridge/Roy/JJ redick and even our GRoat Lowry is coming out in 2006

Sent from my SM-S9110 using RealGM mobile app

[DelAbbot]

What happens to the pick if keep it this year? Does it turn into a future pick?

I never really thought we'd be this bad to have this be a real possibility

top 6 protected 2024 - 2026, if Toronto has not conveyed a 1st round pick to San Antonio by 2026, then Toronto will instead convey its 2026 2nd round pick and 2027 2nd round pick to San Antonio.

3 tanking years will set us up nicely

[canada_dry]

Them boys are back

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[canada_dry]

Although OP, im fairly certain the Raptors would much rather give the pick up this year and get it over with rather than drag it on into next year in a presumably better draft . People cant ignore that. The pick is gone lol. Lets at least be accurate and realistic here.

Idk what that means going forward and maybe with some of these trades they can still trade into the draft with a non Raptor pick-among other things of course- and that might be cool.

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[pingpongrac]

Reporting for duty.

I knew there was going to be some growing pains and we would be lucky to be a .500 team by the play-in tournament because of a tough schedule to start, but I can't believe how incredibly disjointed we've looked for the majority of the first 22 games; we have more often looked like a bottom 5 team than a mid-tier team and I'd be fine with that if we had more to look forward to, but Flynn/Achiuwa/McDaniels have mostly been bad and Gradey was terrible in his first NBA stint while Koloko is still sidelined. I still have high hopes for Gradey's future, but it's reasonable to expect him to not truly make a big impact until his 3rd season. Without a 1st (most likely anyway) in this upcoming draft, the only assets we have to improve our outlook in the near future are Siakam/OG – who are both expiring and likely seeking max contracts – and maybe we could flip Poeltl/Schroder for a few picks or young pieces and salary. The closer we get to the 15th (of December and then January), the more I'm hoping for a big trade to build up our asset base and truly start the rebuild.

We're in the bottom third in offensive efficiency and turnovers per game while our defence has been incredibly average across the board despite us having a lot of good – or even very good – defenders on the team. Darko hasn't shown many positives so far aside from being a nice/likable guy and he should be given a lot more time to work his way through some things in his first stint as a head coach, but it's disappointing how entirely rigid he has been with his rotations/substitutions and his reluctance to divert from his gameplan is creating more problems for a team that just isn't capable of playing how he envisioned. I had been able to see the vision of the FO for the majority of moves/non-moves over the past few years and could rationalize with most of them (with one of the exceptions being letting Eubanks go for nothing), but they have missed the mark on a lot of things; OPJ has been injured and missing in action for 90% of his Raptors career thus far, Poeltl hasn't made us any better and Flynn hasn't shown much of anything in 3+ years while our lack of shooting and guard play has been apparent for 2+ years yet not much has been done to change that, etc. My patience is wearing thin and losing Siakam or OG for nothing (or on the flip side trading for a win-now piece in hopes of pushing us into the playoffs) would probably be enough for me to lose all hope in this organization getting back to a similar level of success as the mid 2010s with the current FO.

Our 3 best players have been good (we're getting 20/10/6 per36 on 56 TS% with great help defence from Scottie, 22/7/5 per36 on 57 TS% from Siakam and 16/5/3 per36 on 58 TS% with elite man defence from OG) and we've been healthy (OG is the only starter to miss time), but we've been losing a lot of very winnable games due to various reasons. Last season was frustrating, but it was mostly because FVV and Scottie underperformed which made it seem like we should have been better. This year has just been bad despite us arguably having better players than we did at the start of 22/23. The pieces just don't fit the way Darko is using them.

[Scase]

I’ve been on tWo since the Tampa year but it makes no sense this year.

With only top 6 protection and possibly dropping 4 lottery spots (like DET last year), we would have to be in the bottom 2 to ensure we keep our pick.

There’s too many trash teams to compete for a bottom 2 spot.

That said, we better not make any more win now moves like do a 2025 pick swap for Brogdon.

The pick is gone, and it's best to not let that factor into any moves, there's no point pushing the rebuild back multiple years due to one pick.

You trade away anything you need to right now for pics/prospects and if you end up with a bad record, so be it. The main part is getting rid of the parts like Siakam and getting some prospects that can grow with Scottie.

[Scase]

Reporting for duty.

I knew there was going to be some growing pains and we would be lucky to be a .500 team by the play-in tournament because of a tough schedule to start, but I can't believe how incredibly disjointed we've looked for the majority of the first 22 games; we have more often looked like a bottom 5 team than a mid-tier team and I'd be fine with that if we had more to look forward to, but Flynn/Achiuwa/McDaniels have mostly been bad and Gradey was terrible in his first NBA stint while Koloko is still sidelined. I still have high hopes for Gradey's future, but it's reasonable to expect him to not truly make a big impact until his 3rd season. Without a 1st (most likely anyway) in this upcoming draft, the only assets we have to improve our outlook in the near future are Siakam/OG – who are both expiring and likely seeking max contracts – and maybe we could flip Poeltl/Schroder for a few picks or young pieces and salary. The closer we get to the 15th (of December and then January), the more I'm hoping for a big trade to build up our asset base and truly start the rebuild.

We're in the bottom third in offensive efficiency and turnovers per game while our defence has been incredibly average across the board despite us having a lot of good – or even very good – defenders on the team. Darko hasn't shown many positives so far aside from being a nice/likable guy and he should be given a lot more time to work his way through some things in his first stint as a head coach, but it's disappointing how entirely rigid he has been with his rotations/substitutions and his reluctance to divert from his gameplan is creating more problems for a team that just isn't capable of playing how he envisioned. I had been able to see the vision of the FO for the majority of moves/non-moves over the past few years and could rationalize with most of them (with one of the exceptions being letting Eubanks go for nothing), but they have missed the mark on a lot of things; OPJ has been injured and missing in action for 90% of his Raptors career thus far, Poeltl hasn't made us any better and Flynn hasn't shown much of anything in 3+ years while our lack of shooting and guard play has been apparent for 2+ years yet not much has been done to change that, etc. My patience is wearing thin and losing Siakam or OG for nothing (or on the flip side trading for a win-now piece in hopes of pushing us into the playoffs) would probably be enough for me to lose all hope in this organization getting back to a similar level of success as the mid 2010s with the current FO.

Our 3 best players have been good (we're getting 20/10/6 per36 on 56 TS% with great help defence from Scottie, 22/7/5 per36 on 57 TS% from Siakam and 16/5/3 per36 on 58 TS% with elite man defence from OG) and we've been healthy (OG is the only starter to miss time), but we've been losing a lot of very winnable games due to various reasons. Last season was frustrating, but it was mostly because FVV and Scottie underperformed which made it seem like we should have been better. This year has just been bad despite us arguably having better players than we did at the start of 22/23. The pieces just don't fit the way Darko is using them.

I don't disagree with mostly anything here, but I wanted to ask. Why is Scottie at 56% TS% and Siakam 57%, when they are 56.3 and 56.5 respectively lol.

[mrdressup]

Lose the pick this year at all cost. Then make sure that next year's team doesn't sniff 20 wins for 2 seasons. That's about as fast as we can get a turnaround happening if all goes well.

[Jerry Lucas]

Prospects from the NCAA pool that have impressed me so far in case anyone's looking for some draft discussion here:
-Ja'Kobe Walter (Baylor, Freshman 6'5" SG)
-Judah Mintz (Syracuse, Soph 6'4" combo G)
-Kyle Filipowski (Duke, Soph 6'11" C)
-Kel'el Ware (Indiana, Soph 7'0" C)

Filipowski and Ware are guys I liked in last years draft too as potential top 20 talents, before they decided to return for their sophomore seasons. They continue to impress me.

Ja'Kobe and Judah have also impressed me a lot. Both look like potential offensive stars in the making. Judah though would never be on the Raptors draft radar because he has a T-Rex wingspan like Bane.

[pingpongrac]

Reporting for duty.

I knew there was going to be some growing pains and we would be lucky to be a .500 team by the play-in tournament because of a tough schedule to start, but I can't believe how incredibly disjointed we've looked for the majority of the first 22 games; we have more often looked like a bottom 5 team than a mid-tier team and I'd be fine with that if we had more to look forward to, but Flynn/Achiuwa/McDaniels have mostly been bad and Gradey was terrible in his first NBA stint while Koloko is still sidelined. I still have high hopes for Gradey's future, but it's reasonable to expect him to not truly make a big impact until his 3rd season. Without a 1st (most likely anyway) in this upcoming draft, the only assets we have to improve our outlook in the near future are Siakam/OG – who are both expiring and likely seeking max contracts – and maybe we could flip Poeltl/Schroder for a few picks or young pieces and salary. The closer we get to the 15th (of December and then January), the more I'm hoping for a big trade to build up our asset base and truly start the rebuild.

We're in the bottom third in offensive efficiency and turnovers per game while our defence has been incredibly average across the board despite us having a lot of good – or even very good – defenders on the team. Darko hasn't shown many positives so far aside from being a nice/likable guy and he should be given a lot more time to work his way through some things in his first stint as a head coach, but it's disappointing how entirely rigid he has been with his rotations/substitutions and his reluctance to divert from his gameplan is creating more problems for a team that just isn't capable of playing how he envisioned. I had been able to see the vision of the FO for the majority of moves/non-moves over the past few years and could rationalize with most of them (with one of the exceptions being letting Eubanks go for nothing), but they have missed the mark on a lot of things; OPJ has been injured and missing in action for 90% of his Raptors career thus far, Poeltl hasn't made us any better and Flynn hasn't shown much of anything in 3+ years while our lack of shooting and guard play has been apparent for 2+ years yet not much has been done to change that, etc. My patience is wearing thin and losing Siakam or OG for nothing (or on the flip side trading for a win-now piece in hopes of pushing us into the playoffs) would probably be enough for me to lose all hope in this organization getting back to a similar level of success as the mid 2010s with the current FO.

Our 3 best players have been good (we're getting 20/10/6 per36 on 56 TS% with great help defence from Scottie, 22/7/5 per36 on 57 TS% from Siakam and 16/5/3 per36 on 58 TS% with elite man defence from OG) and we've been healthy (OG is the only starter to miss time), but we've been losing a lot of very winnable games due to various reasons. Last season was frustrating, but it was mostly because FVV and Scottie underperformed which made it seem like we should have been better. This year has just been bad despite us arguably having better players than we did at the start of 22/23. The pieces just don't fit the way Darko is using them.

I don't disagree with mostly anything here, but I wanted to ask. Why is Scottie at 56% TS% and Siakam 57%, when they are 56.3 and 56.5 respectively lol.

I rounded the numbers, just as I did for their per36 numbers so as not to make it look quite as messy.

Scottie: 20.4/9.5/5.8 per36 on .563 TS%
Siakam: 21.7/7.2/5.2 per36 on .565 TS%
OG: 16.4/4.7/2.7 per36 on .578 TS%

The point stands regardless of a few percentage points or fractions of PTS/REB/AST though lol. Our three best players have been good statistically, but we're a bottom 10 team by most metrics. We were playing at a similar level at this point last season, but that was with Siakam missing 10 games and FVV/Scottie not playing well until mid-December while we still didn't have a starting C either. If this is us with our best players playing well and being healthy, I don't imagine we'll be much better when we inevitably have an injury or two to our starters that we need to play through. That's what I'm getting at.

[ConSarnit]

Trade OG and Siakam for the best offers even if it’s as early as next week. Operate with the hope that:

-the flotsam from the Siakam/OG deal keep us in a spot to give up the 9th pick this year

-get back a ‘24 first (let’s say 17th) in one of those trades

-treat 2024 like we lost in the 1st round and ended up with the 17th pick

-tank in 2025 without the worry of owing a future 1st

Bring in another prospect in ‘24 (so it’s not a completely lost year) and go forward with full flexibility. It’s not ideal but it’s a way out.

[The Duke]

I want to keep losing, and convey 2 2nds to Spurs.
Masai dun screw us, so we gotta hope to screw back Masai