Tank World Order (The Remix Vol. IV)

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I guess that depends on if you see one mediocre draft solving all our problems.

[ConSarnit]

You try to secure a top 6 pick this season and then try to improve the team over the off-season, hope the rest of the guys take the next step, and make a push for the playoffs next season.

Masai that you?

https://raptorsrapture.com/posts/regrade-trade-raptors-cripple-their-future-investing-towering-center

It was painfully obvious to everyone but Masai Ujiri and the most ardent Raptors fans that trading for Poeltl was a mistake; it would have been a mistake if they had simply added him for free and then signed him to the contract that they did. Poeltl is a very good, but not elite rim protector, and his ability to defend in space lags behind most of his elite defensive peers. On offense he is a good screen-setter and roll man, but he flubs a lot of finishes around the rim if he can't dunk and doesn't provide any level of spacing.

The type of player is fine in the right role, but he isn't elevating the defense on his own and is probably hurting the offense unless he is operating in a well-spaced environment.

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

Play-in hunt. The 8th seed is currently 7 games over .500. Tough to see us as a 45-37 team next year.

Any success next year should be through organic development. If Barnes is looking all-nba and Quickey is a 22/7/4 guy then great, we have some type of foundation. If we are trying to eek out 4-5 more wins through free agency or trades that is a bad path to choose. Let this team live or die based on the current young talent. If they can’t make it happen and we’re looking at a high lotto pick then that’s fine because we obviously need more talent. Basically, not a concerted out of the gate tank but definitely no win now moves. Quick pivot to tank (trade Poeltl, etc) if things start out poorly.

[ConSarnit]

I guess that depends on if you see one mediocre draft solving all our problems.

Sort of catch-22ish. If we keep our pick this year we’re looking at 2 rookies who will need playing time (let’s say #3 and #18). Given it’s a bad draft these guys will be raw and that will lead to more losses next year. Playing bad rookies puts us bottom 10 again and we’re back to “fingers crossed” as to whether we keep our pick in 2025.

My thoughts: team will be bad again next year so it’s probably better to give up the pick this year so it’s not hanging over our head. But if we’re going to be the 10th worst team next year vs drafting #3 this year I don’t know which is better.

[DelAbbot]

I guess that depends on if you see one mediocre draft solving all our problems.

and signing of FA in the coming summer to solve our problems

[Fairview4Life]

We're tied with MEM for 6th and 7th last now, which means there's a 57% chance (6th) or 66% (7th) we lose our pick to SAS. Our record since the trade has been 2 disappointing seasons. We were 10th in the East before trading for a veteran C & still failed to make the playoffs. By going for it instead of tanking, we also lost draft position in 2023. The Poeltl trade has been a disaster.

What LoveMyRaps is really saying above is we need LUCK to keep our pick and HOPE the rest of the guys takes the next step. So we finally find out Masai's plan is based: on luck and hope.

I have some bad news about what tanking also requires. Turns out everything in the NBA needs LUCK and HOPE.

Not quite. Everything needs luck and hope. Masai's plan is based largely on luck and hope (as so claimed). Big difference.

And, frankly, I don't know why you guys are going on and on about tanking and anti-tanking. IYou keep re-litigating the same arguments over and over again ad nauseam. Why not just agree to disagree and move on.

I do just as much relitigating as you. I'm going to say maybe 3 posts about tanking every month or so.

[Scase]

You try to secure a top 6 pick this season and then try to improve the team over the off-season, hope the rest of the guys take the next step, and make a push for the playoffs next season.

Masai that you?

https://raptorsrapture.com/posts/regrade-trade-raptors-cripple-their-future-investing-towering-center

It was painfully obvious to everyone but Masai Ujiri and the most ardent Raptors fans that trading for Poeltl was a mistake; it would have been a mistake if they had simply added him for free and then signed him to the contract that they did. Poeltl is a very good, but not elite rim protector, and his ability to defend in space lags behind most of his elite defensive peers. On offense he is a good screen-setter and roll man, but he flubs a lot of finishes around the rim if he can't dunk and doesn't provide any level of spacing.

The type of player is fine in the right role, but he isn't elevating the defense on his own and is probably hurting the offense unless he is operating in a well-spaced environment.

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

Yeah, same way last year we were 15-11 after the Jak trade, against primarily sub .500 teams
We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

Winning record is meaningless without that context. Based on that context, sure we might be in the hunt for a play in spot, but who cares? If you can only get in that position by beating really bad teams, and lose against all the good ones, why bother.

Why waste yet another opportunity to get a high draft pick in a class that has potential franchise talents like Flagg, just to limp to the play in and get smacked down? Do we need to repeat last year all over again? Should we trade another FRP for a player that doesn't move the needle just to really hammer it home?

This team is not in a position where we should be pushing for things like that.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I guess that depends on if you see one mediocre draft solving all our problems.

and signing of FA in the coming summer to solve our problems

We lost that max spot, plus I'm not sure that person's there this offseason. Things could always change though. We wouldn't be at the front of the line.

[DelAbbot]

Masai that you?

https://raptorsrapture.com/posts/regrade-trade-raptors-cripple-their-future-investing-towering-center

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

Yeah, same way last year we were 15-11 after the Jak trade, against primarily sub .500 teams
We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

Winning record is meaningless without that context. Based on that context, sure we might be in the hunt for a play in spot, but who cares? If you can only get in that position by beating really bad teams, and lose against all the good ones, why bother.

Why waste yet another opportunity to get a high draft pick in a class that has potential franchise talents like Flagg, just to limp to the play in and get smacked down? Do we need to repeat last year all over again? Should we trade another FRP for a player that doesn't move the needle just to really hammer it home?

This team is not in a position where we should be pushing for things like that.

LoveMyRaps is waay too optimistic about our chances next season with BBQ.

I mean after those 3-4 wins right after the OG for BQ trade, he was declaring we going to the playoffs this year. BBQ would be lucky to sniff the play-in next season given the depth currently (including Dick).

[Scase]

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

Yeah, same way last year we were 15-11 after the Jak trade, against primarily sub .500 teams
We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

Winning record is meaningless without that context. Based on that context, sure we might be in the hunt for a play in spot, but who cares? If you can only get in that position by beating really bad teams, and lose against all the good ones, why bother.

Why waste yet another opportunity to get a high draft pick in a class that has potential franchise talents like Flagg, just to limp to the play in and get smacked down? Do we need to repeat last year all over again? Should we trade another FRP for a player that doesn't move the needle just to really hammer it home?

This team is not in a position where we should be pushing for things like that.

LoveMyRaps is waay too optimistic about our chances next season with BBQ.

I mean after those 3-4 wins right after the OG for BQ trade, he was declaring we going to the playoffs this year. BBQ would be lucky to sniff the play-in next season given the depth currently (including Dick).

I think with a better bench we could be fighting for the play in, but that means we'd need to make trades to actively get a better bench.....just for a play in spot. Which would be an exceptionally stupid move.

[Tacoma]

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

We are 8-16 with BBQ playing together. It's likely IMO that OG is a better fit for them but the Knicks are doing better with OG. Next season playing together is going to tell whether they can lead us towards a Championship eventually.

RJ & IQ are not young inexperienced players who needs to learn. They'll have 5 and 4 seasons under their belt and they need to start next season full throttle. If we are merely hunting for the playoffs next season, then it'll be a disappointment IMO.

If BBQ is a thing, then they can't just be hunting for the playoffs but should be fighting with the likes of ORL, CLE and NYK for top 6 seed. If BBQ will eventually become the core with Championship aspirations, that's my expectations for them next season.

[LoveMyRaps]

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

Yeah, same way last year we were 15-11 after the Jak trade, against primarily sub .500 teams
We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

Winning record is meaningless without that context. Based on that context, sure we might be in the hunt for a play in spot, but who cares? If you can only get in that position by beating really bad teams, and lose against all the good ones, why bother.

Why waste yet another opportunity to get a high draft pick in a class that has potential franchise talents like Flagg, just to limp to the play in and get smacked down? Do we need to repeat last year all over again? Should we trade another FRP for a player that doesn't move the needle just to really hammer it home?

This team is not in a position where we should be pushing for things like that.

LoveMyRaps is waay too optimistic about our chances next season with BBQ.

I mean after those 3-4 wins right after the OG for BQ trade, he was declaring we going to the playoffs this year. BBQ would be lucky to sniff the play-in next season given the depth currently (including Dick).

Did I actually say this? Please do share when/where this was said.
Play-ins, perhaps.

[LoveMyRaps]

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

We are 8-16 with BBQ playing together. It's likely IMO that OG is a better fit for them but the Knicks are doing better with OG. Next season playing together is going to tell whether they can lead us towards a Championship eventually.

RJ & IQ are not young inexperienced players who needs to learn. They'll have 5 and 4 seasons under their belt and they need to start next season full throttle. If we are merely hunting for the playoffs next season, then it'll be a disappointment IMO.

If BBQ is a thing, then they can't just be hunting for the playoffs but should be fighting with the likes of ORL, CLE and NYK for top 6 seed. If BBQ will eventually become the core with Championship aspirations, that's my expectations for them next season.

What's our record with BBQ + Poeltl?

[Scase]

If I'm not mistaken we were close to being a .500 team with BBQ + Poeltl in the lineup.
As long as those 4 are healthy, I expect this team to be in the hunt for the playoffs next season. That's also because I expect BBQ to come back even better next season given that they're all still young.

We are 8-16 with BBQ playing together. It's likely IMO that OG is a better fit for them but the Knicks are doing better with OG. Next season playing together is going to tell whether they can lead us towards a Championship eventually.

RJ & IQ are not young inexperienced players who needs to learn. They'll have 5 and 4 seasons under their belt and they need to start next season full throttle. If we are merely hunting for the playoffs next season, then it'll be a disappointment IMO.

If BBQ is a thing, then they can't just be hunting for the playoffs but should be fighting with the likes of ORL, CLE and NYK for top 6 seed. If BBQ will eventually become the core with Championship aspirations, that's my expectations for them next season.

What's our record with BBQ + Poeltl?

I already answered this for you.

We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

[LoveMyRaps]

We are 8-16 with BBQ playing together. It's likely IMO that OG is a better fit for them but the Knicks are doing better with OG. Next season playing together is going to tell whether they can lead us towards a Championship eventually.

RJ & IQ are not young inexperienced players who needs to learn. They'll have 5 and 4 seasons under their belt and they need to start next season full throttle. If we are merely hunting for the playoffs next season, then it'll be a disappointment IMO.

If BBQ is a thing, then they can't just be hunting for the playoffs but should be fighting with the likes of ORL, CLE and NYK for top 6 seed. If BBQ will eventually become the core with Championship aspirations, that's my expectations for them next season.

What's our record with BBQ + Poeltl?

I already answered this for you.

We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

8-10 is not bad, considering it takes time to build chemistry.
I'm a firm believer that Barnes, Quickley, and Barrett will play their best basketball next season.
Expecting Quickley to play at a near All-Star level. 20/5/5 seems doable.

[Potential]

8-10 record with purple bbq aint bad for a team that was just randomly put together mid season. With training camp by next year I expect a top 6 finish in the east

[Scase]

What's our record with BBQ + Poeltl?

I already answered this for you.

We are 8-10 with BBQ+P. 6 of 8 wins against sub .500 teams.

8-10 is not bad, considering it takes time to build chemistry.
I'm a firm believer that Barnes, Quickley, and Barrett will play their best basketball next season.
Expecting Quickley to play at a near All-Star level. 20/5/5 seems doable.

8-10 is bad when 6 of 8 wins are bottom feeders. Can they win against better teams with more time together? Absolutely, but it's not like they are world beaters, they suffer against teams that are only marginally above .500.

Competition and context matters.

[Reeko]

I already answered this for you.

8-10 is not bad, considering it takes time to build chemistry.
I'm a firm believer that Barnes, Quickley, and Barrett will play their best basketball next season.
Expecting Quickley to play at a near All-Star level. 20/5/5 seems doable.

8-10 is bad when 6 of 8 wins are bottom feeders. Can they win against better teams with more time together? Absolutely, but it's not like they are world beaters, they suffer against teams that are only marginally above .500.

Competition and context matters.

Fair enough but so does continuity.

[WuTang_OG]

I don't think getting 10th next season is a wild prediction if they stay healthy and add more talent through the draft.

But I'm looking at next year as another development season anyway.

25/26 is the year where my expectations will change. If the team is still 9-10 spot then there's issues.

[Scase]

8-10 is not bad, considering it takes time to build chemistry.
I'm a firm believer that Barnes, Quickley, and Barrett will play their best basketball next season.
Expecting Quickley to play at a near All-Star level. 20/5/5 seems doable.

8-10 is bad when 6 of 8 wins are bottom feeders. Can they win against better teams with more time together? Absolutely, but it's not like they are world beaters, they suffer against teams that are only marginally above .500.

Competition and context matters.

Fair enough but so does continuity.

True, but continuity is much more important with a high ceiling with plenty of room for growth. OKC can easily make that argument the last couple of years, their most tenured player core player is 25 and in his 6th season, and is second in MVP voting.

Ours is going to be 29 at the start of the next season going into his 10th season, and is a mid tier starter. RJ/IQ will be going into seasons 4 and 5 respectively. I'm fine with continuity and growth, but for players with a lot more room for it. If the BBQ core was a bunch of like 22 year old players in their 2nd or 3rd years, sure, let em do it, but this ain't it.

[Reeko]

8-10 is bad when 6 of 8 wins are bottom feeders. Can they win against better teams with more time together? Absolutely, but it's not like they are world beaters, they suffer against teams that are only marginally above .500.

Competition and context matters.

Fair enough but so does continuity.

True, but continuity is much more important with a high ceiling with plenty of room for growth. OKC can easily make that argument the last couple of years, their most tenured player core player is 25 and in his 6th season, and is second in MVP voting.

Ours is going to be 29 at the start of the next season going into his 10th season, and is a mid tier starter. RJ/IQ will be going into seasons 4 and 5 respectively. I'm fine with continuity and growth, but for players with a lot more room for it. If the BBQ core was a bunch of like 22 year old players in their 2nd or 3rd years, sure, let em do it, but this ain't it.

I'm not going to debate whether or not Poeltl is a part of our core moving forward. Personally I don't view him as such, but you can make an argument for it given what we gave up for him and his current contract. IQ and RJ are 24 and 23 respectively, Scottie is 22, Gradey is 20. That is who I view as our core moving forward, and they have less than a season playing with each other. They can all take significant jumps next season, Gradey almost definitely will, I expect Scottie will as well, I'm hopeful for IQ and to a lesser extent RJ.