Tank World Order (The Remix Vol. IV)

[Bruin]

Seriously, what's the point of tanking?

We've lost the last 10 game, yet we are still stuck in the same spot.....lol....the teams below us will never get past us in the standings.....lol

Let's just accept the fact that Jakob Poeltl is a good top 10 pick in a weak draft and move on.

If we didn’t lose these 10 straight games, we wouldn’t be in the same spot and would have less odds to keep the pick this year. Hope that answers your question

[Scase]

Seriously, what's the point of tanking?

We've lost the last 10 game, yet we are still stuck in the same spot.....lol....the teams below us will never get past us in the standings.....lol

Let's just accept the fact that Jakob Poeltl is a good top 10 pick in a weak draft and move on.

If we didn’t lose these 10 straight games, we wouldn’t be in the same spot and would have less odds to keep the pick this year. Hope that answers your question

[beanbag]

Seriously, what's the point of tanking?

We've lost the last 10 game, yet we are still stuck in the same spot.....lol....the teams below us will never get past us in the standings.....lol

Let's just accept the fact that Jakob Poeltl is a good top 10 pick in a weak draft and move on.

They're not tanking. They have legitimate injuries and a horrendous personal matter that has rendered the majority of their already mediocre starting unit out of the lineup. They just suck. This isn't some grand scheme to lose games. If Barnes was healthy, he'd be playing

[Vampirate]

We had to opportunity to be sellers and tank at the 2023 trade deadline. We didn't. We chose to be buyers instead. To disastrous results. Everything after that has been Masai fumbling to fix the mess he created.

Masai has been fairly competent this season but that does not erase the blunders of the past.

Signing Denis Schroder and then having him go FVV on the team is not competency

Hence why I said "this season". I don't count the 2023 offseason as part of that. It also had the terrible McDaniels signing, among others.

Tbh McDaniels is pretty much a hindsight is 20/20, look at his stats the other seasons, how are you going to predict he'd be this bad.

Schroder was a stop gap after the FVV situation (and let's face it, we'd all still rather have Schroder than FVV as Schroder is much easier to move on from, FVV would still be here had he'd been resigned and we'd be in true mediocre hell)


What isn't 20/20 though is trading for Poetl, and I really have nothing against Jacob but it was obvious at the time that it was the wrong move. We were a sinking ship that season that should have been properly sunk rather than duct taping the holes.

We were all on a high after drafting Barnes which lead to a letdown in that 2nd season (for the team overall, both good and bad).

[Raptaurus]

I am not a big fan of purposeful perpetual tanking/losing season after season. It takes a lot more than just stock piling draft picks/rookies to build a winner. Teams like Detroit come to mind of course.

Having said that, there are times when it can be the right decision to tank. After all, we wouldn’t have gotten Scottie if we didnt tank the Tampa season. Same goes for the Spurs landing Duncan and then Wemby. Even the Mavs tanked last year to keep their pick and landed Lively. Some times, you have to take a temporary one step back to take three steps forward in the future.

Right now, we are witnessing just plain old losing from a roster mostly left with a bunch G leaguers (excluding Dick, Olynik, and a stat-padding Trent). Its never an ideal situation when a retooling/rebuilding team (whatever you want to call it) ends up pretty much wasting a good chunk of their season in this type of scenario when it could have been used on player development, team building, and cohesion while also still standing a really good chance of losing their very own draft pick at the end of it all….

[metafisical]

I am not a big fan of purposeful perpetual tanking/losing season after season. It takes a lot more than just stock piling draft picks/rookies to build a winner. Teams like Detroit come to mind of course.

Having said that, there are times when it can be the right decision to tank. After all, we wouldn’t have gotten Scottie if we didnt tank the Tampa season. Same goes for the Spurs landing Duncan and then Wemby. Even the Mavs tanked last year to keep their pick and landed Lively. Some times, you have to take a temporary one step back to take three steps forward in the future.

Right now, we are witnessing just plain old losing from a roster mostly left with a bunch G leaguers (excluding Dick, Olynik, and a stat-padding Trent). Its never an ideal situation when a retooling/rebuilding team (whatever you want to call it) ends up pretty much wasting a good chunk of their season in this type of scenario when it could have been used on player development, team building, and cohesion while also still standing a really good chance of losing their very own draft pick at the end of it all….

Stop trying to use logic and make sense. The naysayers will still ask same one-dimensional, static question that they always ask: how many teams have won a championship by just tanking (i.e., how many teams have won a championship by tanking and keeping all of their drafted players, but did not trade any of those draftees for other players, because adding that proviso would destroy the reason I am asking the original question)?

I agree with you: tank for a purpose, even if it's for a few seasons. We don't have to keep all the players we tanked for. That has to be emphasized over and over again. Our 2018-19 championship won in part to shrewd trades of our top 10 drafted players (e.g., DD + Poeltl for Leonard, JV for Gasol).

I think that's what tank naysayers are afraid of -- that tanking actually works if it is done dynamically. Hence why they have to focus their question, stated above, with the stipulation that tanking teams aren't allowed to trade their players..

[dohboy_24]

Sorry, but you wouldn't be surprised if something with an 8% chance happened lol?

I'm speaking more in terms of "what might be good for the league" the same as it where when the Spurs were awarded the first pick to choose Wemby rather than Charlotte, Portland, Detroit, or Houston.

You might be overestimating the teams value in the eyes of the league.

The #3 pick in a weak draft is an over-estimation of a team valued at over $4 billion (top 10 in the entire NBA) that happens to be the only international franchise in the league which is supported by an entire country who travels to US cities to attend road games to watch them play?

SOURCE: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2023/10/26/the-most-valuable-nba-teams-2023/?sh=592f59ce209d

[SpezNc]

Seriously, what's the point of tanking?

We've lost the last 10 game, yet we are still stuck in the same spot.....lol....the teams below us will never get past us in the standings.....lol

Let's just accept the fact that Jakob Poeltl is a good top 10 pick in a weak draft and move on.

If we didn’t lose these 10 straight games, we wouldn’t be in the same spot and would have less odds to keep the pick this year. Hope that answers your question

Indeed I 100% agree with you.

Even if the impact of losing does not improve that much our odds, losing still increase our odds. Before the streak, we had around 32% of keeping our pick. The odd of moving to 6 was as high as odd of moving to 8.

Now our odds are somewhere between 32% and 44%. Definitely higher than 38%. I will say it’s 40%. Slightly more chance than not that we finish 6th even if the race to 6 is too close to call. Meaning we added 6-8% of keeping our pick in last week. It’s not wow but it’s not nothing.

Also losing at the moment is not necessarily problematic for the culture. At the moment 4 of 5 starters and top4 starters are OUT and partially shield of that losing streak.

With Barnes, Quick, Poeltl and Barrett, it’s unlikely we have a 10 games losing streak.

This allowed the organization to have more time to Ochai, Gradey. This could be useful for their long term development.

[Scase]

I'm speaking more in terms of "what might be good for the league" the same as it where when the Spurs were awarded the first pick to choose Wemby rather than Charlotte, Portland, Detroit, or Houston.

You might be overestimating the teams value in the eyes of the league.

The #3 pick in a weak draft is an over-estimation of a team valued at over $4 billion (top 10 in the entire NBA) that happens to be the only international franchise in the league which is supported by an entire country who travels to US cities to attend road games to watch them play?

SOURCE: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2023/10/26/the-most-valuable-nba-teams-2023/?sh=592f59ce209d

The draft isn't WEAK, it's just not top heavy with clear cut top 3 picks. People need to stop parroting this misinformation.

The valuation of the team in the leagues eye is much less important than you think. The Canadian market is very small compared to the american market. The Raptors valuation isn't what gives them leverage and bargaining power in TV deals, because those TV deals are all for american markets.

The valuation of the Raptors helps virtually no one besides MLSE.

[dohboy_24]

The draft isn't WEAK, it's just not top heavy with clear cut top 3 picks. People need to stop parroting this misinformation.

Green font for a reason. You won't get an argument from me regarding the quality of the prospects in this draft.

The valuation of the team in the leagues eye is much less important than you think. The Canadian market is very small compared to the american market. The Raptors valuation isn't what gives them leverage and bargaining power in TV deals, because those TV deals are all for american markets.

The valuation of the Raptors helps virtually no one besides MLSE.

Sure, I'll believe you because you said so and ignore all data that might suggest otherwise...



SOURCE: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1245773/nba-interest-worldwide/

======

GLOBAL GROWTH

NBA viewership outside of North America continues its rapid ascent with year-over-year average growth this season outpacing China in both Portugal (+122%) and Italy (+81%).

Mexico (+36%), the Philippines (+31%), Spain (+12%), and Canada (+11%) have also seen upticks in interest.

NBA League Pass, which gives subscribers access to live and on-demand games, has also grown internationally, with a 272% increase in Cameroon, the home country of Philadelphia star Joel Embiid, a 203% increase in Turkey and 78% rise in Italy.

Beginning with late commissioner David Stern and accelerating under current commissioner Adam Silver, the NBA has aggressively targeted lucrative overseas markets.

This season included preseason games in Japan and Abu Dhabi and regular season games will be held in Mexico City later this month and Paris in January. The Basketball Africa League (BAL) completed its second season in May.

Global interest has been propelled by the rise and in some cases dominance of international players in the league, which had 120 non-U.S.-born players in teams' opening night squads this season.

SOURCE: https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/nba-chinas-nba-viewership-approaching-pre-ban-levels-source-2022-12-08/

======

IF the league were going to rig a draft and the teams with a decent enough shot of making it into the top 4 without anyone getting too lucky (i.e. GSW or LAL winning the #1 pick) were Toronto, Memphis, San Antonio, Washington, Brooklyn, Portland, Charlotte, and Detroit, I think the league would prefer Toronto, Memphis, and San Antonio above the rest.

Since it's ping-pong balls and not my opinion or the leagues' desire that will determine the outcome, that will remain to be seen but as far as the importance of the Canadian market to the NBA and the role the Raptors play in that, the studies and data I've referenced above appear to contradict your statements so unless you have something other than your own statement to support what you're suggesting, perhaps you can take your concerns up with the writers at Statista or Reuters since they're the ones suggesting the Canadian market is important and I'm just simply referencing their work...

[akakalakin]

Masai admitted tanking and Raptors were penalized by the NBA several years ago. Curious why not this year

[anotherhomer]

Masai admitted tanking and Raptors were penalized by the NBA several years ago. Curious why not this year

you got it mixed up with bryan colangelo

[Scase]

The draft isn't WEAK, it's just not top heavy with clear cut top 3 picks. People need to stop parroting this misinformation.

Green font for a reason. You won't get an argument from me regarding the quality of the prospects in this draft.

The valuation of the team in the leagues eye is much less important than you think. The Canadian market is very small compared to the american market. The Raptors valuation isn't what gives them leverage and bargaining power in TV deals, because those TV deals are all for american markets.

The valuation of the Raptors helps virtually no one besides MLSE.

Sure, I'll believe you because you said so and ignore all data that might suggest otherwise...



SOURCE: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1245773/nba-interest-worldwide/

======

GLOBAL GROWTH

NBA viewership outside of North America continues its rapid ascent with year-over-year average growth this season outpacing China in both Portugal (+122%) and Italy (+81%).

Mexico (+36%), the Philippines (+31%), Spain (+12%), and Canada (+11%) have also seen upticks in interest.

NBA League Pass, which gives subscribers access to live and on-demand games, has also grown internationally, with a 272% increase in Cameroon, the home country of Philadelphia star Joel Embiid, a 203% increase in Turkey and 78% rise in Italy.

Beginning with late commissioner David Stern and accelerating under current commissioner Adam Silver, the NBA has aggressively targeted lucrative overseas markets.

This season included preseason games in Japan and Abu Dhabi and regular season games will be held in Mexico City later this month and Paris in January. The Basketball Africa League (BAL) completed its second season in May.

Global interest has been propelled by the rise and in some cases dominance of international players in the league, which had 120 non-U.S.-born players in teams' opening night squads this season.

SOURCE: https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/nba-chinas-nba-viewership-approaching-pre-ban-levels-source-2022-12-08/

======

IF the league were going to rig a draft and the teams with a decent enough shot of making it into the top 4 without anyone getting too lucky (i.e. GSW or LAL winning the #1 pick) were Toronto, Memphis, San Antonio, Washington, Brooklyn, Portland, Charlotte, and Detroit, I think the league would prefer Toronto, Memphis, and San Antonio above the rest.

Since it's ping-pong balls and not my opinion or the leagues' desire that will determine the outcome, that will remain to be seen but as far as the importance of the Canadian market to the NBA and the role the Raptors play in that, the studies and data I've referenced above appear to contradict your statements so unless you have something other than your own statement to support what you're suggesting, perhaps you can take your concerns up with the writers at Statista or Reuters since they're the ones suggesting the Canadian market is important and I'm just simply referencing their work...

My bad I missed the green font somehow

As for the level of interest, like I said, that doesn't matter a single iota to the NBA. They make the vast majority of their money off merch sales, and TV deals. Canada does not in any way shape or form, factor into a TV deal, as the deals are made with american broadcasters, for american markets, advertising to americans. The raptors aren't in the top 10 in the NBA for merchandise sales, nor are any of their players in the top 15 most sold jerseys.


This is all moot too, since I don't think they rig the drafts lol.

[twiggy2]

As an old school raptor fan, lottery night was a fun event to look forward too. May 12th here we come.

[SpezNc]

If RJ/Quick are back soon, how does this impact our tank job?

With both of team, the team is definitely better.

How many win do we have in our last 10?

[Coco Costanza]

If RJ/Quick are back soon, how does this impact our tank job?

With both of team, the team is definitely better.

How many win do we have in our last 10?

Maybe one or two. Certainly no more than that. Our next five

Knicks
Sixers
Lakers
Timberwolves
Bucks

Jakob is still out, and now Porter. I don't see us winning any of these games. After that it's

Wizards
Pacers
Nets
Heat
Heat

Wizards are beatable, maybe Nets.

[deck]

I am not a big fan of purposeful perpetual tanking/losing season after season. It takes a lot more than just stock piling draft picks/rookies to build a winner. Teams like Detroit come to mind of course.

Having said that, there are times when it can be the right decision to tank. After all, we wouldn’t have gotten Scottie if we didnt tank the Tampa season. Same goes for the Spurs landing Duncan and then Wemby. Even the Mavs tanked last year to keep their pick and landed Lively. Some times, you have to take a temporary one step back to take three steps forward in the future.

Right now, we are witnessing just plain old losing from a roster mostly left with a bunch G leaguers (excluding Dick, Olynik, and a stat-padding Trent). Its never an ideal situation when a retooling/rebuilding team (whatever you want to call it) ends up pretty much wasting a good chunk of their season in this type of scenario when it could have been used on player development, team building, and cohesion while also still standing a really good chance of losing their very own draft pick at the end of it all….

Stop trying to use logic and make sense. The naysayers will still ask same one-dimensional, static question that they always ask: how many teams have won a championship by just tanking (i.e., how many teams have won a championship by tanking and keeping all of their drafted players, but did not trade any of those draftees for other players, because adding that proviso would destroy the reason I am asking the original question)?

I agree with you: tank for a purpose, even if it's for a few seasons. We don't have to keep all the players we tanked for. That has to be emphasized over and over again. Our 2018-19 championship won in part to shrewd trades of our top 10 drafted players (e.g., DD + Poeltl for Leonard, JV for Gasol).

I think that's what tank naysayers are afraid of -- that tanking actually works if it is done dynamically. Hence why they have to focus their question, stated above, with the stipulation that tanking teams aren't allowed to trade their players..

Right, but we didn't tank to get DD, JV, or Ross. And in the years following 2013/2014 we also didn't gut the team for draft picks to try to get a generational talent through the draft. A significant amount of disagreement on the board is simply a definition problem regarding the word 'tank'. We didn't make any tanking moves leading up to 2019, we actually did the opposite in that the team was always incrementally improving going back to 2010-ish time frame. This has been debated many times, and I've never seen anyone put forward a coherent argument that 2019 is somehow the result of tanking.

Tanking by definition means making your team purposefully bad in hopes of drafting future players, either by sitting healthy players, or by trading players away for future draft compensation. The Raptors have done this twice (of their own volition) in the entire history of our franchise; first to get Barnes, and again this year after trading Siakam.

Very few if anyone will debate that getting talent via the draft is a plausible way to improve a team. I also suspect very few people had a problem with shutting down Lowry in 2021 to move up in the draft to get Barnes. Plenty of people though likely see the inherent problems with trading away your best players for draft picks, as the timelines involved in those kinds of moves are typically half decades rather than one or two seasons. It's also why GMs are likely not going to favour those options, as they will likely be fired before the franchise exits that kind of tanking.

[WuTang_OG]

10 games left

Wish we could sim the rest

maybe we get 1 win

should secure 6

[ArthurVandelay]

I am not a big fan of purposeful perpetual tanking/losing season after season. It takes a lot more than just stock piling draft picks/rookies to build a winner. Teams like Detroit come to mind of course.

Having said that, there are times when it can be the right decision to tank. After all, we wouldn’t have gotten Scottie if we didnt tank the Tampa season. Same goes for the Spurs landing Duncan and then Wemby. Even the Mavs tanked last year to keep their pick and landed Lively. Some times, you have to take a temporary one step back to take three steps forward in the future.

Right now, we are witnessing just plain old losing from a roster mostly left with a bunch G leaguers (excluding Dick, Olynik, and a stat-padding Trent). Its never an ideal situation when a retooling/rebuilding team (whatever you want to call it) ends up pretty much wasting a good chunk of their season in this type of scenario when it could have been used on player development, team building, and cohesion while also still standing a really good chance of losing their very own draft pick at the end of it all….

Stop trying to use logic and make sense. The naysayers will still ask same one-dimensional, static question that they always ask: how many teams have won a championship by just tanking (i.e., how many teams have won a championship by tanking and keeping all of their drafted players, but did not trade any of those draftees for other players, because adding that proviso would destroy the reason I am asking the original question)?

I agree with you: tank for a purpose, even if it's for a few seasons. We don't have to keep all the players we tanked for. That has to be emphasized over and over again. Our 2018-19 championship won in part to shrewd trades of our top 10 drafted players (e.g., DD + Poeltl for Leonard, JV for Gasol).

I think that's what tank naysayers are afraid of -- that tanking actually works if it is done dynamically. Hence why they have to focus their question, stated above, with the stipulation that tanking teams aren't allowed to trade their players..

Right, but we didn't tank to get DD, JV, or Ross. And in the years following 2013/2014 we also didn't gut the team for draft picks to try to get a generational talent through the draft. A significant amount of disagreement on the board is simply a definition problem regarding the word 'tank'. We didn't make any tanking moves leading up to 2019, we actually did the opposite in that the team was always incrementally improving going back to 2010-ish time frame. This has been debated many times, and I've never seen anyone put forward a coherent argument that 2019 is somehow the result of tanking.

Tanking by definition means making your team purposefully bad in hopes of drafting future players, either by sitting healthy players, or by trading players away for future draft compensation. The Raptors have done this twice (of their own volition) in the entire history of our franchise; first to get Barnes, and again this year after trading Siakam.

Very few if anyone will debate that getting talent via the draft is a plausible way to improve a team. I also suspect very few people had a problem with shutting down Lowry in 2021 to move up in the draft to get Barnes. Plenty of people though likely see the inherent problems with trading away your best players for draft picks, as the timelines involved in those kinds of moves are typically half decades rather than one or two seasons. It's also why GMs are likely not going to favour those options, as they will likely be fired before the franchise exits that kind of tanking.

I'm not sure on the history there.

I thought the Raptors definitely tanked in 2010-11 for JV after Bosh left. They finished third worst with 22 wins but that was when the lottery was just top 3 and they slipped 2 spots during the Young Gunz/Onez era. They then tanked again in strike shortened 2012 with JV playing at home. They were one win away from getting Lillard but instead slipped to 8th on a Ben Uzoh triple double W vs Nets leading to Coin Toss Ross. For 2012-2013 Colangelo "accelerated the rebuild" to disastrous results which lead to him getting fired/Masai hired and sent a 1-5 & 15-30 playoff protected draft pick to Houston for Lowry.

They didn't tank for DD in 2009 though, they were just bad which I'm sure played a large part in Bosh leaving. And they were also a lottery team in 2010 with a 40-42 record selecting Davis 13th.

And definitely agree on the 2013 to 2019 era. Lots of calls for tanking but never happened.

Raptors under Masai have been situational tankers. 2021 in Tampa and then this year once Scottie went down. I don't think they tank next year but I really think they should. They are going to be one Poeltl trade or injury away from bad.

[SpezNc]

If RJ/Quick are back soon, how does this impact our tank job?

With both of team, the team is definitely better.

How many win do we have in our last 10?

Maybe one or two. Certainly no more than that. Our next five

Knicks
Sixers
Lakers
Timberwolves
Bucks

Jakob is still out, and now Porter. I don't see us winning any of these games. After that it's

Wizards
Pacers
Nets
Heat
Heat

Wizards are beatable, maybe Nets.

I think we win 3 games

Sixers, Wizards and maybe one of Heat game.

If RJ/Quick are back for the NYK game, without O.G/Randle etc. I would not be surprised if we win that game as well. Extra motivation for Quick/RJ