2023-24 Season: Draft, Trades, and FA Ideas Thread V2.0

[YogurtProducer]

I do like the idea of targetting a guy like Dillon Brooks with a GTJ or Brown as the trade piece going the other way. The guy is a legit defensive piece, and this year his 3 ball has really turned around. Not to mention, his contract is descending so he is actually paid less in 2026 than he is in 2024.

He is a pretty perfect fit at the 3 for us to be the POA defender and hit open 3's.

IQ/RJ/Brooks/Barnes/Poeltl OR IQ/Dick/Brooks/Barnes/Poeltl is a pretty nice lineup IMO.

[ArthurVandelay]

I’m taking talent > fit at this point. GTJ/Brown both are better talents than Pat Will is IMO.

Pat Will is also a huge unknown that Chicago could match and we end up with nothing.

I’d rather bring back GTJ and Brown and then make trades later. Not lose assets to an already shallow team for a “maybe” with Williams

I have serious doubts about Williams.

Only thing with Brown and GTJr is how much trade value do they actually have? I'm guessing very little without taking back bad contract.

How much value does Pat Will have at 25M a year? My guess is that is negative value. That is more money than anyone on our team currently.

GTJ + Brown are legit rotation players in the NBA and on actual contenders they can be 6th/7th men.

Pat Will right now is OG with worse offense, and worse defense, and we want to give him 25M? Why not just give OG, the superior version, 35M?

I'm with you on Williams. I liked him in his draft year but he hasn't developed and has major history of injury. I wouldn't be throwing $25m per year at him.

I think Brown and Gary have value on a value contract. This past year at $23m and $18m I don't think they had trade value. I'll be disappointed if either are a Raptor next year. I was a Gary fan but I've really soured on him with his inability to mesh with how the team is trying to play and how he provides very little outside shooting.

[YogurtProducer]

I have serious doubts about Williams.

Only thing with Brown and GTJr is how much trade value do they actually have? I'm guessing very little without taking back bad contract.

How much value does Pat Will have at 25M a year? My guess is that is negative value. That is more money than anyone on our team currently.

GTJ + Brown are legit rotation players in the NBA and on actual contenders they can be 6th/7th men.

Pat Will right now is OG with worse offense, and worse defense, and we want to give him 25M? Why not just give OG, the superior version, 35M?

I'm with you on Williams. I liked him in his draft year but he hasn't developed and has major history of injury. I wouldn't be throwing $25m per year at him.

I think Brown and Gary have value on a value contract. This past year at $23m and $18m I don't think they had trade value. I'll be disappointed if either are a Raptor next year. I was a Gary fan but I've really soured on him with his inability to mesh with how the team is trying to play and how he provides very little outside shooting.

Yeah it 100% depends on what they are brought back at.

If we can bring GTJ back at like 12-15M I think that is good value. 18M is a bit rich but I think that is neutral value, not necessarily negative.

Brown I would prefer if we could agree to decline his option and give him 12-15M as well over 2 years. That to me is a pretty solid deal for him. IF he declines that I am fine bringing him back at 23M just because I think he has value as a piece (mostly salary related) in a bigger deal if that is the route we opt to go.

But GTJ/Brown on 15Mish contracts as your 7th/8th men is decent I think.

We have our core 4 starters in IQ/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl
Then we have another 4 guys that are our 5th-8th men in Dick/GTJ/Brown/Olynyk
Then we have another 3-4 guys who hopefully can fringe rotation guys in Porter/Agbaji/IND 1st/TOR 1st (maybe).

I don't think that is a horrible place to be. Definite chance you trade Brown/GTJ for an upgrade or move off one of the 1sts in a deal as well.

[billy_hoyle]

I’m taking talent > fit at this point. GTJ/Brown both are better talents than Pat Will is IMO.

Pat Will is also a huge unknown that Chicago could match and we end up with nothing.

I’d rather bring back GTJ and Brown and then make trades later. Not lose assets to an already shallow team for a “maybe” with Williams

I have serious doubts about Williams.

Only thing with Brown and GTJr is how much trade value do they actually have? I'm guessing very little without taking back bad contract.

How much value does Pat Will have at 25M a year? My guess is that is negative value. That is more money than anyone on our team currently.

GTJ + Brown are legit rotation players in the NBA and on actual contenders they can be 6th/7th men.

Pat Will right now is OG with worse offense, and worse defense, and we want to give him 25M? Why not just give OG, the superior version, 35M?

I think the fact you can predict Pat Will at 25m a year to be negative value is exactly why we have a chance to poach him. I don't think it's a zero percent chance as stated by the other poster.

Pat Will is exactly the type of player that takes a massive jump right around now in their development.

He's very young (same age as Scottie), he's played behind two Allstars his whole career, he's been snake bit by injury, his shooting has been a positive, his skills to size ratio is very good (and why he was drafted 4th overall).

I'm not saying he will make the jump and make that contract look good. I'm saying it's a good gamble as GTJ and Bruce Brown have shown you what they are. These guys are legit players, that said, they have zero star potential and they are being paid/will be paid highly on our team.

Barnes
RJ
Yak
IQ
Dick

They are our still the 6-7th best players but already make UFA salaries (personally think KO is comparable). They are also redundant positionally with our young and cheap prospects (Dick, Ochai). We need to use their salary slots to grab a second or third best player (potentially).

Possibly pick up some good complimentary players with our draft picks this year. We should be freeing up playing time to develop the young guys anyway.

Our pick: Topic
Indy pick: Tyler Smith
Det pick: Edey

Yak, KO, (Edey?)
Barnes, (Tyler Smith?)
Pat Will, Ochai
RJ, Dick
IQ, (Topic?)

Try to win starting next year.

[MiamiSPX]

I think the fact you can predict Pat Will at 25m a year to be negative value is exactly why we have a chance to poach him. I don't think it's a zero percent chance as stated by the other poster.

It's the Bulls, nobody knows what they're doing, including them. I think there is a chance they don't match. I don't even think it takes 25M. I think 20-23 gets it done.

As for tying up our cap during the right-to-match period, what does that hold up? The lineup of guys itching to sign with us lol?

[islandboy53]

I think the fact you can predict Pat Will at 25m a year to be negative value is exactly why we have a chance to poach him. I don't think it's a zero percent chance as stated by the other poster.

It's the Bulls, nobody knows what they're doing, including them. I think there is a chance they don't match. I don't even think it takes 25M. I think 20-23 gets it done.

As for tying up our cap during the right-to-match period, what does that hold up? The lineup of guys itching to sign with us lol?

You acknowledge the reality of our FA signing history, but you think Williams will jump at the chance to sign here, perhaps even taking a discount to do so, AND that the Bulls will just let the #4 pick from 4 years ago go for nothing in return. Okee dokee. Do you have a plan B?

[YogurtProducer]

I think the fact you can predict Pat Will at 25m a year to be negative value is exactly why we have a chance to poach him. I don't think it's a zero percent chance as stated by the other poster.

It's the Bulls, nobody knows what they're doing, including them. I think there is a chance they don't match. I don't even think it takes 25M. I think 20-23 gets it done.

As for tying up our cap during the right-to-match period, what does that hold up? The lineup of guys itching to sign with us lol?

well I mean you risk GTJ leaving for a chance at MAYBE getting Pat Will. Pretty sure you have to renounce Brown as well.

So yeah we lose 2 guys and any ability to replace them... all for Pat Will who is not that good. Maybe he is a god defender, but offensively he is nothing but a spot up shooter and even then, his volume is very very low.

Isolation - 0.29ppp (0th percentile)
PNR Handler - 0.85ppp (485h percentile)
PNR Roll man - 0.50ppp (2nd percentile)
Spt up - 0.92ppp (28th percentile)
Cut - 1.15ppp (15th percentile)

I honestly do not think Williams has any more long-term potential than say, Agbaji.

Edit: Like I am not fully convinced Pat Will is the best player of GTJ/Brown/PatWill.

[MiamiSPX]

I think the fact you can predict Pat Will at 25m a year to be negative value is exactly why we have a chance to poach him. I don't think it's a zero percent chance as stated by the other poster.

It's the Bulls, nobody knows what they're doing, including them. I think there is a chance they don't match. I don't even think it takes 25M. I think 20-23 gets it done.

As for tying up our cap during the right-to-match period, what does that hold up? The lineup of guys itching to sign with us lol?

You acknowledge the reality of our FA signing history, but you think Williams will jump at the chance to sign here, perhaps even taking a discount to do so, AND that the Bulls will just let the #4 pick from 4 years ago go for nothing in return. Okee dokee. Do you have a plan B?

He may want the more featured role on the Raptors, given that he would likely be the 5th starter. If signing him fails, Plan B is to then turn to the crappy UFAs we were hoping to sign.

[YogurtProducer]

It's the Bulls, nobody knows what they're doing, including them. I think there is a chance they don't match. I don't even think it takes 25M. I think 20-23 gets it done.

As for tying up our cap during the right-to-match period, what does that hold up? The lineup of guys itching to sign with us lol?

You acknowledge the reality of our FA signing history, but you think Williams will jump at the chance to sign here, perhaps even taking a discount to do so, AND that the Bulls will just let the #4 pick from 4 years ago go for nothing in return. Okee dokee. Do you have a plan B?

He may want the more featured role on the Raptors, given that he would likely be the 5th starter. If signing him fails, Plan B is to then turn to the crappy UFAs we were hoping to sign.

The point being that those "crappy UFAs" are scooped up by the time you have wasted your time on an RFA

He also has started 175/230 games in Chicago. And next year with Demar (and maybe Lavine) gone he is a shoe-in to start there to.

[MiamiSPX]

You acknowledge the reality of our FA signing history, but you think Williams will jump at the chance to sign here, perhaps even taking a discount to do so, AND that the Bulls will just let the #4 pick from 4 years ago go for nothing in return. Okee dokee. Do you have a plan B?

He may want the more featured role on the Raptors, given that he would likely be the 5th starter. If signing him fails, Plan B is to then turn to the crappy UFAs we were hoping to sign.

The point being that those "crappy UFAs" are scooped up by the time you have wasted your time on an RFA

My point being those crappy UFAs are not signing with the Raptors anyway, unless desperation kicks in.

[YogurtProducer]

He may want the more featured role on the Raptors, given that he would likely be the 5th starter. If signing him fails, Plan B is to then turn to the crappy UFAs we were hoping to sign.

The point being that those "crappy UFAs" are scooped up by the time you have wasted your time on an RFA

My point being those crappy UFAs are not signing with the Raptors anyway, unless desperation kicks in.

Okay, so the "crappy" UFAs are not signign with Toronto but this hidden gem Patrick Williams will?

Your logic just completely falls apart man.

[MiamiSPX]

The point being that those "crappy UFAs" are scooped up by the time you have wasted your time on an RFA

My point being those crappy UFAs are not signing with the Raptors anyway, unless desperation kicks in.

Okay, so the "crappy" UFAs are not signign with Toronto but this hidden gem Patrick Williams will?

Your logic just completely falls apart man.

I didn't say he was a hidden gem. He would definitely slot in as the 5th starter though (which may entice him), bringing size back to the team and career 41% from 3. Who would we sign as a UFA then? The list is horrible and Malik Monk isn't signing in Toronto.

[YogurtProducer]

My point being those crappy UFAs are not signing with the Raptors anyway, unless desperation kicks in.

Okay, so the "crappy" UFAs are not signign with Toronto but this hidden gem Patrick Williams will?

Your logic just completely falls apart man.

I didn't say he was a hidden gem. He would definitely slot in as the 5th starter though (which may entice him), bringing size back to the team and career 41% from 3. Who would we sign as a UFA then? The list is horrible and Malik Monk isn't signing in Toronto.

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

[MiamiSPX]

Okay, so the "crappy" UFAs are not signign with Toronto but this hidden gem Patrick Williams will?

Your logic just completely falls apart man.

I didn't say he was a hidden gem. He would definitely slot in as the 5th starter though (which may entice him), bringing size back to the team and career 41% from 3. Who would we sign as a UFA then? The list is horrible and Malik Monk isn't signing in Toronto.

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

Based on a previous post, you're also operating under the flawed logic that GTJ and Brown will take massive paycuts. That is not happening IMO. Brown isn't declining that option, and GTJ is still young enough where some team might get stupid.

[YogurtProducer]

I didn't say he was a hidden gem. He would definitely slot in as the 5th starter though (which may entice him), bringing size back to the team and career 41% from 3. Who would we sign as a UFA then? The list is horrible and Malik Monk isn't signing in Toronto.

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

Based on a previous post, you're also operating under the flawed logic that GTJ and Brown will take massive paycuts. That is not happening IMO. Brown isn't declining that option, and GTJ is still young enough where some team might get stupid.

GTJ at 18 and Brown at 23 is still more preferable than losing them for nothing and striking out on a pipe dream RFA.

Dont try and move the goalposts here.

But FWIW - Brown has no say in if that option gets picked up. It is a team option.

[islandboy53]

Okay, so the "crappy" UFAs are not signign with Toronto but this hidden gem Patrick Williams will?

Your logic just completely falls apart man.

I didn't say he was a hidden gem. He would definitely slot in as the 5th starter though (which may entice him), bringing size back to the team and career 41% from 3. Who would we sign as a UFA then? The list is horrible and Malik Monk isn't signing in Toronto.

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

There are, clearly, some folks who believe that we should be a cap space team next year. That's possible, but unlikely. We have so much more flexibillty operating over the cap, we don't have that much potential space, there aren't really any "needle moving" FA's available, we don't have history as an FA destination even if there were, and we're just not ready for that one big move that will put us into contention. We'll see when we get there, but I'm comfortable predicting us operating over the cap.

With that said, Brown, Trent and Boucher are players that are better utilized bringing back assets rather than playing for us. Moving them also opens more development time for current players, our draft picks this year, and anyone else we are able to add. All have value to other teams, and I believe all will be moved, hopefully this summer. As for free agency, we would have the NTMLE available, if we find someone we like. If not, it can be used to accept salary in a trade during the season, so there's no pressure to use it this summer.

[billy_hoyle]

I didn't say he was a hidden gem. He would definitely slot in as the 5th starter though (which may entice him), bringing size back to the team and career 41% from 3. Who would we sign as a UFA then? The list is horrible and Malik Monk isn't signing in Toronto.

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

Based on a previous post, you're also operating under the flawed logic that GTJ and Brown will take massive paycuts. That is not happening IMO. Brown isn't declining that option, and GTJ is still young enough where some team might get stupid.

We renounce GTJ and decline Brown to get gain cap room.

We can still sign either or both of them back at contracts you yourself are advocating for ~12m.

What advantage does bird rights even give us on GTJ? The ability to overpay and keep the MLE?

I'd take the upside of Pat Will/ Saddiq Bey/ Jalen Smith or De'Anthony Melton all of which can be only be poached to Toronto with a greater than MLE offer anyway.

The only way to have a possible chance on those guys is to renounce.

I'm really not seeing the downside here.

Losing a 1yr overpay of Bruce Brown and his bird rights, and the bird rights to overpay GTJ?

[MiamiSPX]

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

Based on a previous post, you're also operating under the flawed logic that GTJ and Brown will take massive paycuts. That is not happening IMO. Brown isn't declining that option, and GTJ is still young enough where some team might get stupid.

GTJ at 18 and Brown at 23 is still more preferable than losing them for nothing and striking out on a pipe dream RFA.

Dont try and move the goalposts here.

But FWIW - Brown has no say in if that option gets picked up. It is a team option.

I was referring to your suggestion that he work out an agreement with the team where they decline the option and he signs for 15M per season. That is not happening.

So now we're back at this strange Masai belief that Brown's value will grow as he gets closer to UFA status?

GTJ isn't even signing for 18M. He will get 20M+ from someone IMO. If money wasn't an issue between the Raps and him, he would have been re-signed a long time ago, like we heard was happening. Masai isn't going to win a showdown with Rich Paul.

[YogurtProducer]

No one else is advocating to let GTJ and Brown walk to sign UFA's - we are simply poking holes in the flawed logic that we should renounce them for a pipe dream RFA or underwhelimg UFAs.

The best FA options are probably still GTJ / Brown for us. They are not sexy but it is better than losing them for nothing.

Based on a previous post, you're also operating under the flawed logic that GTJ and Brown will take massive paycuts. That is not happening IMO. Brown isn't declining that option, and GTJ is still young enough where some team might get stupid.

We renounce GTJ and decline Brown to get gain cap room.

We can still sign either or both of them back at contracts you yourself are advocating for ~12m.

What advantage does bird rights even give us on GTJ? The ability to overpay and keep the MLE?

I'd take the upside of Pat Will/ Saddiq Bey/ Jalen Smith or De'Anthony Melton all of which can be only be poached to Toronto with a greater than MLE offer anyway.

The only way to have a possible chance on those guys is to renounce.

I'm really not seeing the downside here.

Losing a 1yr overpay of Bruce Brown and his bird rights, and the bird rights to overpay GTJ?

I understand why you want to get cap room - I am simply stating that cap room that you end up not using is not a better option. Renouncing guys and declining options to chase other guys is a great way to burn bridges. You think GTJ or Brown will be willing to come back after we strike out on Pat Will? No, that bridge will be burnt and they will be signed before we can even come back.

All those guys you listed out don't have upside any more than GTJ or Brown do. For the most part, they are all finished products including our guys.

The downside is we lost GTJ and Brown and sign no one. How you cannot see that scenario baffles me.

[YogurtProducer]

Based on a previous post, you're also operating under the flawed logic that GTJ and Brown will take massive paycuts. That is not happening IMO. Brown isn't declining that option, and GTJ is still young enough where some team might get stupid.

GTJ at 18 and Brown at 23 is still more preferable than losing them for nothing and striking out on a pipe dream RFA.

Dont try and move the goalposts here.

But FWIW - Brown has no say in if that option gets picked up. It is a team option.

I was referring to your suggestion that he work out an agreement with the team where they decline the option and he signs for 15M per season. That is not happening.

So now we're back at this strange Masai belief that Brown's value will grow as he gets closer to UFA status?

GTJ isn't even signing for 18M. He will get 20M+ from someone IMO. If money wasn't an issue between the Raps and him, he would have been re-signed a long time ago, like we heard was happening. Masai isn't going to win a showdown with Rich Paul.

Why would that not be an option? Brown and Indiana both knew when he signed that deal it was a massive overpayment for the purpose of trading him. He knows his true value is no where near 20M. Maybe he agrees to a 2/30 for the guaranteed cash and we get a solid player on a solid deal. IDK if Brown has any interest in staying and IDK if Masai has any interest in retaining him however.

GTJ picked up his option last year, then had a worse season. So a year older, coming off a worse season, suddenly is going to have a 20+M market? I just have very strong doubts.