WOJ - OG to Knicks (Live Presser pg 67)

[duppyy]

I see knicks getting passed the first round unless Randle pulls a disappearing act.

[YogurtProducer]

and they won 2 games against the championship Cavs which you conveniently left out. You can hype up the Knicks all you want but they're still a big trade away from being taken seriously. As their roster currently stands they're just a high tier treadmill team.

Brunson/Randle/OG isn't a big 3 that strikes fear into anyone.

Anyone who watched that series knew the Cavs completely took their foot off the pedal in game 3 and 4. They murdered us in the other 4 games. We got outscored that series by 92 and won 2 games.

We started Luis Scola, Demmare Carroll, and Biyombo for the entirety of the ECF (PatPat started 1 game over Scola). That team simply was not good compared to the current Knicks.

I loved those mid teen Raps teams, but lets be serious about how good they actually were. Arguably the worst ECF team of the last 15 years.

Even if that were true could the Knicks from today beat that Cavs team? My guess is probably not. Which puts a hard cap on championship aspirations. Right now the Knicks are top of the second tier.

I give the Knicks a better chance than we had. Far from a great chance, but that Cavs team needed a lot of luck to win (like Draymond getting himself suspended, Coming back from 3-1, Bogust injury, Curry banged up, etc.) and that makes the Cavs winning look a lot more impressive than it was. I remember all through that era people talking aboug how weak the east was and a lot of years the Cavs would not sniff the finals if there was any resistance.

That Knicks team has the same top end talent in Brunson/Randle as we did with Lowry/Demar (demar and randle equally flawed), but the supporting cast of OG/Hart/Robinson/Hartenstein/Donte/Grimes just blows JV/DMC/Scola/PatPat/Tross out of the water.

I think this Knicks team actually has a competitive series with the Cavs. Despite us winning 2 games, we never even sniffed being competitive.

[WaltFrazier]

Eventually our boy OG will get one(or 3) of those unlucky injuries. I will be curious to see how the media will manage that.
Will he average more than 15 points with them this season?
One thing for certain, he will "make his money" during the playoffs. His true value (40Mper) will come out during the playoffs and I look forward to watching that

The Raptors have been remarkably healthy this year. When some inevitable injuries hit we'll see how deep the roster is

[WaltFrazier]

They have all of their picks and have been playing winning basketball. That’s not a treadmill team.

Now a team like us ? With no pick this year or any chance of being a playoff team despite having an expensive roster ? Now that’s a treadmill team. Especially if we extend Siakam.

Talk about bad takes. Knicks are better now but they’re still a second round exit.
You’re easier to plan for when you only have two main offensive options.
Raptors have internal developmental with quickley and Barnes. If we had this team in the beginning of the year were probably a 41-45 win team. This year we’ve dug a big hole but I think we make the play in at least.

This is cute. Treadmill fans talking down on another team for being a playoff caliber team while at the same time wishing for the Raps to make the play in.

The lack of self awareness is hilarious with this fanbase.

Yes, this. It's laughable for any Raptor fan to talk down about the Knicks.

And even if they lose second round in the hyper competitive East, at least they're a team trying to win, going for it. No shame in that.

[WaltFrazier]

lol thanks for admitting you've lost the argument.

A playoff team with all of their picks, 2 best players under team friendly contracts = treadmill team.

A team whose ceiling is the play in, best player who’s an UFA that has complete leverage over the FO, no pick for the year despite being a lottery caliber team = model franchise.

Got it. Makes complete sense to me.

this describes the pre-kawhi raptors perfectly. most posters would call that team treadmill. maybe you werent following the team back then.

Being in the position of the 2018 Raptors is a good thing. One move away from a real contender.

[Tha Cynic]

A playoff team with all of their picks, 2 best players under team friendly contracts = treadmill team.

A team whose ceiling is the play in, best player who’s an UFA that has complete leverage over the FO, no pick for the year despite being a lottery caliber team = model franchise.

Got it. Makes complete sense to me.

this describes the pre-kawhi raptors perfectly. most posters would call that team treadmill. maybe you werent following the team back then.

Being in the position of the 2018 Raptors is a good thing. One move away from a real contender.

The 2018 Raptors had arguably the best bench in the NBA. We're not comparing this team to that one, right?

[WaltFrazier]

Right now Knicks are winning because of their two budding All-NBA talents in Brunson and Randle.
But as soon as they start losing, people are gonna start pointing the finger at OG and labelling the trade a disaster.
Because that's what always happens - people will always look at the guy producing the least (i.e., fewest PPG) and blame him.

You're missing the effect OGs presence has had on those two stars. It's no coincidence how well they're playing the past 4 games. Stuff that doesn't show on the scoresheet.

Plus they are in position to make another move before deadline, with Fournier and those picks.

[OakleyDokely]

The Knicks just need to show that they're a competant organization for an extended stretch, and they instantly become a top destination for stars.

It's taken decades worth of complete incompetence for them not to be a star destination despite being located in NEW YORK F'ING CITY. They lost out on KD to a suburb.

If they can build a 50ish win team with some assets, that's one piece away, that's attractive to stars.

Trades are the new free agency for stars, and you need those stars demanding their way to the Knicks like they do for the Lakers, Heat etc

[LoveMyRaps]

Right now Knicks are winning because of their two budding All-NBA talents in Brunson and Randle.
But as soon as they start losing, people are gonna start pointing the finger at OG and labelling the trade a disaster.
Because that's what always happens - people will always look at the guy producing the least (i.e., fewest PPG) and blame him.

You're missing the effect OGs presence has had on those two stars. It's no coincidence how well they're playing the past 4 games. Stuff that doesn't show on the scoresheet.

Plus they are in position to make another move before deadline, with Fournier and those picks.

Brunson last 4 games (since OG joined the team) is averaging 27.3ppg on 47/37 splits.
The 21 games prior to that he was averaging 27.5ppg on 50/44 splits.

Randle last 4 games is averaging 30ppg on 50/33 splits.
The 17 games prior to that he was averaging 28ppg on 54/30 splits.

Numbers don't back up your claim that OG's presence has helped Brunson and Randle on offense.

He's definitely improved the overall team's defense.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

Right now Knicks are winning because of their two budding All-NBA talents in Brunson and Randle.
But as soon as they start losing, people are gonna start pointing the finger at OG and labelling the trade a disaster.
Because that's what always happens - people will always look at the guy producing the least (i.e., fewest PPG) and blame him.

You're missing the effect OGs presence has had on those two stars. It's no coincidence how well they're playing the past 4 games. Stuff that doesn't show on the scoresheet.

Plus they are in position to make another move before deadline, with Fournier and those picks.

Fournier plus crappy picks != star players
And yes OG helps them but they haven’t jumped a tier

[SFour]

Right now Knicks are winning because of their two budding All-NBA talents in Brunson and Randle.
But as soon as they start losing, people are gonna start pointing the finger at OG and labelling the trade a disaster.
Because that's what always happens - people will always look at the guy producing the least (i.e., fewest PPG) and blame him.

You're missing the effect OGs presence has had on those two stars. It's no coincidence how well they're playing the past 4 games. Stuff that doesn't show on the scoresheet.

Plus they are in position to make another move before deadline, with Fournier and those picks.

I think removing RJ had a bigger impact for Brunson/Randle on offense than the addition of OG.

[James_Raptors]

Las two games Brunson has played 32:23 and 34:56 , even if you add the 3rd game 38:19, the average is 35.2 min per game, which is slightly below his season avg mins per game. But then you factor in he was playing against two of the top two teams in the NBA for 2 out of 3 of those games. Sure, you might expect 32:23 against the Wizards. But it's games like 34:56 where you'd expect big mins if you win that game. That's how these guys usually get their minutes, against the elite teams. Teams like Washington, Portland etc, there is usually more junk time, right? Tiny sample size, but that sort of stuff adds up when you play 4-5 mins less during those high impact pressure games.Julias played 35.5 min over those 3 games, which is .1 below his avg. Even though they played two elite teams he was still not stretched to the max.

But technically they weren't supposed to get better offensively with this trade, Flynn and Precious arent providing that, and OG won't even replace RJ, let alone back-up pg Immanuel's point totals. But removing RJ was addition by subtraction, because having him on the court was inefficient offensively, and below avg defensively. Then you replace him with an advantage defensively, and a more efficient, albeit lower scoring option. So you definitely expect to lose some offense, but probably make games easier to win without needing those sorts of points scorer, because you're not giving up as much. At least theoretically of course. These are still tiny samples in a very recent trade. I'd also add that this was one step for the NYK, it's not a finished product, whether they add at the deadline or for sure next summer, they still have room to improve. I don't believe in Randle, but maybe he's a piece they consider trading in the near future?

[WaltFrazier]

Right now Knicks are winning because of their two budding All-NBA talents in Brunson and Randle.
But as soon as they start losing, people are gonna start pointing the finger at OG and labelling the trade a disaster.
Because that's what always happens - people will always look at the guy producing the least (i.e., fewest PPG) and blame him.

You're missing the effect OGs presence has had on those two stars. It's no coincidence how well they're playing the past 4 games. Stuff that doesn't show on the scoresheet.

Plus they are in position to make another move before deadline, with Fournier and those picks.

Brunson last 4 games (since OG joined the team) is averaging 27.3ppg on 47/37 splits.
The 21 games prior to that he was averaging 27.5ppg on 50/44 splits.

Randle last 4 games is averaging 30ppg on 50/33 splits.
The 17 games prior to that he was averaging 28ppg on 54/30 splits.

Numbers don't back up your claim that OG's presence has helped Brunson and Randle on offense.

He's definitely improved the overall team's defense.

Check the assists, Brunson and team

[WaltFrazier]

Las two games Brunson has played 32:23 and 34:56 , even if you add the 3rd game 38:19, the average is 35.2 min per game, which is slightly below his season avg mins per game. But then you factor in he was playing against two of the top two teams in the NBA for 2 out of 3 of those games. Sure, you might expect 32:23 against the Wizards. But it's games like 34:56 where you'd expect big mins if you win that game. That's how these guys usually get their minutes, against the elite teams. Teams like Washington, Portland etc, there is usually more junk time, right? Tiny sample size, but that sort of stuff adds up when you play 4-5 mins less during those high impact pressure games.Julias played 35.5 min over those 3 games, which is .1 below his avg. Even though they played two elite teams he was still not stretched to the max.

But technically they weren't supposed to get better offensively with this trade, Flynn and Precious arent providing that, and OG won't even replace RJ, let alone back-up pg Immanuel's point totals. But removing RJ was addition by subtraction, because having him on the court was inefficient offensively, and below avg defensively. Then you replace him with an advantage defensively, and a more efficient, albeit lower scoring option. So you definitely expect to lose some offense, but probably make games easier to win without needing those sorts of points scorer, because you're not giving up as much. At least theoretically of course. These are still tiny samples in a very recent trade. I'd also add that this was one step for the NYK, it's not a finished product, whether they add at the deadline or for sure next summer, they still have room to improve. I don't believe in Randle, but maybe he's a piece they consider trading in the near future?

Your second paragraph is touching on the effect of OG.

I don't love this team but I've watched the first three games and read some of their board. I think they expect to add a medium piece at deadline, Brogdon or Dejonte level. And go for a star in summer. I've seen Randle for Kat floated but I don't know.

[maternal85]

This is cute. Treadmill fans talking down on another team for being a playoff caliber team while at the same time wishing for the Raps to make the play in.

The lack of self awareness is hilarious with this fanbase.

Oh Pipe down. They're worse than a Derozan lead treadmill Raptors Team. Nobody is scared of Brunson, Randle, or poor man's Ron Artest, aka OG. Their picks won't be that high. And even if it was, they're very incompetent when it comes to drafting. Stop acting like they've won a title recently.

That’s cute. Calling them incompetent at drafting when we’re hoping a player that they selected in the 20’s is our future franchise PG.

Why not ? He has shown potential. I mean we had a PG drafted 24th, who helped us win a title, is a future hall of fame, and will get his jersey retired.

You have a guy drafted 41st overall who just lead the Nuggets to a title. Its not far fetch if they show potential regardless of where they were drafted. Let me guess, you're going to say "am I comparing Quick to Jokic or Lowry" ? Again Pipe down. The Knicks are worse than a treadmill lead Derozan team. Two overrated 2nd tier "All-Stars" who ceiling is the 2nd round of the playoffs

[maternal85]

Talk about bad takes. Knicks are better now but they’re still a second round exit.
You’re easier to plan for when you only have two main offensive options.
Raptors have internal developmental with quickley and Barnes. If we had this team in the beginning of the year were probably a 41-45 win team. This year we’ve dug a big hole but I think we make the play in at least.

This is cute. Treadmill fans talking down on another team for being a playoff caliber team while at the same time wishing for the Raps to make the play in.

The lack of self awareness is hilarious with this fanbase.

Yes, this. It's laughable for any Raptor fan to talk down about the Knicks.

And even if they lose second round in the hyper competitive East, at least they're a team trying to win, going for it. No shame in that.

Doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result, is the classic definition of insanity. Once Ujiri realized this, the Raptors won a title. I think it's laughable the Knicks think they'll win a title doing the same thing over and over again.

[WaltFrazier]

This is cute. Treadmill fans talking down on another team for being a playoff caliber team while at the same time wishing for the Raps to make the play in.

The lack of self awareness is hilarious with this fanbase.

Yes, this. It's laughable for any Raptor fan to talk down about the Knicks.

And even if they lose second round in the hyper competitive East, at least they're a team trying to win, going for it. No shame in that.

Doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result, is the classic definition of insanity. Once Ujiri realized this, the Raptors won a title. I think it's laughable the Knicks think they'll win a title doing the same thing over and over again.

I'm no student of recent Knicks history but my understanding is they've been trying to build a solid foundation of young players under the current regime? Not like the days of buying stars like Carmelo.

[maternal85]

Yes, this. It's laughable for any Raptor fan to talk down about the Knicks.

And even if they lose second round in the hyper competitive East, at least they're a team trying to win, going for it. No shame in that.

Doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result, is the classic definition of insanity. Once Ujiri realized this, the Raptors won a title. I think it's laughable the Knicks think they'll win a title doing the same thing over and over again.

I'm no student of recent Knicks history but my understanding is they've been trying to build a solid foundation of young players under the current regime? Not like the days of buying stars like Carmelo.

Then why trade Quick ? The OG move is if you need a final piece. Just how we did the Marc Gasol trade. They're just throwing anything at the wall hoping it sticks.

[James_Raptors]

Las two games Brunson has played 32:23 and 34:56 , even if you add the 3rd game 38:19, the average is 35.2 min per game, which is slightly below his season avg mins per game. But then you factor in he was playing against two of the top two teams in the NBA for 2 out of 3 of those games. Sure, you might expect 32:23 against the Wizards. But it's games like 34:56 where you'd expect big mins if you win that game. That's how these guys usually get their minutes, against the elite teams. Teams like Washington, Portland etc, there is usually more junk time, right? Tiny sample size, but that sort of stuff adds up when you play 4-5 mins less during those high impact pressure games.Julias played 35.5 min over those 3 games, which is .1 below his avg. Even though they played two elite teams he was still not stretched to the max.

But technically they weren't supposed to get better offensively with this trade, Flynn and Precious arent providing that, and OG won't even replace RJ, let alone back-up pg Immanuel's point totals. But removing RJ was addition by subtraction, because having him on the court was inefficient offensively, and below avg defensively. Then you replace him with an advantage defensively, and a more efficient, albeit lower scoring option. So you definitely expect to lose some offense, but probably make games easier to win without needing those sorts of points scorer, because you're not giving up as much. At least theoretically of course. These are still tiny samples in a very recent trade. I'd also add that this was one step for the NYK, it's not a finished product, whether they add at the deadline or for sure next summer, they still have room to improve. I don't believe in Randle, but maybe he's a piece they consider trading in the near future?

Your second paragraph is touching on the effect of OG.

I don't love this team but I've watched the first three games and read some of their board. I think they expect to add a medium piece at deadline, Brogdon or Dejonte level. And go for a star in summer. I've seen Randle for Kat floated but I don't know.

Yup, I've seen those two names as well. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was brought up on the RealGM Wiretap just last week. Something along the lines of "Knicks Keeping Eye On Karl-Anthony Towns"

[WaltFrazier]

Doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result, is the classic definition of insanity. Once Ujiri realized this, the Raptors won a title. I think it's laughable the Knicks think they'll win a title doing the same thing over and over again.

I'm no student of recent Knicks history but my understanding is they've been trying to build a solid foundation of young players under the current regime? Not like the days of buying stars like Carmelo.

Then why trade Quick ? The OG move is if you need a final piece. Just how we did the Marc Gasol trade. They're just throwing anything at the wall hoping it sticks.

I read somebody say it's easier to replace what IQ did than to get what OG provides. Now they still do need to go acquire a guard or bench scorer to replace Quickley's scoring, no doubt.

I assume they don't see OG as the final piece, but a necessary piece to keep building. And get their final piece, or bigger star, in summer.

I don't think the order in which the 2019 Raps were built is set in stone as the only way. In another timeline Masai could have got Gasol first then Kawhi as the final piece.

No one can say the Knicks are on the right path for sure, but it's fair to say they have a better plan than just throwing stuff at the wall.