WOJ: Raps get Olynyk & Agbaji for 24' 1st Rd Pick, Otto Porter, Kira Lewis

[Scase]

This is assuming that getting KO in FA was not possible, which most signs point to it being pretty probable with how much he's stated he's always wanted to play here, and wants to retire here.

As I stated, my preferred course of action was to go after him in the off season, and then use the pick. The 28th pick allows the choice of the position and player, Ochai was just what Utah wanted to move. I would much rather have had the flexibility of the pick, both from a salary and player perspective. Ideally drafting a big in the same vein as KO and have him mentor him as such.

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

Olynyk in his interview also mentioned 1) that he appreciated they wanted him enough to trade for him and 2) he could get his contract done before the summer so he can focus on Olympics. So it's not a given he gets to FA if traded elsewhere

That's a fair point, I'd still roll the dice though.

[anotherhomer]

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

Olynyk in his interview also mentioned 1) that he appreciated they wanted him enough to trade for him and 2) he could get his contract done before the summer so he can focus on Olympics. So it's not a given he gets to FA if traded elsewhere

That's a fair point, I'd still roll the dice though.

it made sense to get him now, to evaluate how he would fit before committing a 2 year contract

[nikster]

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

Olynyk in his interview also mentioned 1) that he appreciated they wanted him enough to trade for him and 2) he could get his contract done before the summer so he can focus on Olympics. So it's not a given he gets to FA if traded elsewhere

That's a fair point, I'd still roll the dice though.

Sure but the Raptors decided to roll the dice on Ochai. You said the he's just what Utah wanted to move but there's a chance the Raps wanted him more than anybody they think will be available in that range (knowing they already have the 31st pick). He's exactly the type of player Masai has gone for in the past

[ArthurVandelay]

Agbaji is being underrated in my opinion. Some of the takes are going to age as well as the pre-January Dick comments.

We've seen what he can't do (handle ball, create, above the break 3s) and what he often struggles to do (finish). But what he can do is extremely valuable (on ball defender, POA defender, cut, corner 3s).

It's on the coaching staff to make sure he's in position to succeed and it's on him to recognize his limitations.

If he sticks to corner 3s and defense, combined with an extended KO, that is a lot of value for a 28/29 pick.

[WuTang_OG]

Agbaji is being underrated in my opinion. Some of the takes are going to age as well as the pre-January Dick comments.

We've seen what he can't do (handle ball, create, above the break 3s) and what he often struggles to do (finish). But what he can do is extremely valuable (on ball defender, POA defender, cut, corner 3s).

It's on the coaching staff to make sure he's in position to succeed and it's on him to recognize his limitations.

If he sticks to corner 3s and defense, combined with an extended KO, that is a lot of value for a 28/29 pick.

If he can carve out a career like a Danny Green type, that's a success. High character, system guy who plays solid poa defense and hit 3's. Will he be a future starter for us? Probably not with Gradey, RJ ahead of him (and upcoming draft picks) but thats fine. We need solid role players to compliment. Just like Green relying on Pop's system, that's what Ochai has to do with Darko.

[Scase]

Agbaji is being underrated in my opinion. Some of the takes are going to age as well as the pre-January Dick comments.

We've seen what he can't do (handle ball, create, above the break 3s) and what he often struggles to do (finish). But what he can do is extremely valuable (on ball defender, POA defender, cut, corner 3s).

It's on the coaching staff to make sure he's in position to succeed and it's on him to recognize his limitations.

If he sticks to corner 3s and defense, combined with an extended KO, that is a lot of value for a 28/29 pick.

My concern is that he has a bit of that Precious streak in him, where he just plays outside his abilities. Hopefully the staff can reign that in.

[ArthurVandelay]

Agbaji is being underrated in my opinion. Some of the takes are going to age as well as the pre-January Dick comments.

We've seen what he can't do (handle ball, create, above the break 3s) and what he often struggles to do (finish). But what he can do is extremely valuable (on ball defender, POA defender, cut, corner 3s).

It's on the coaching staff to make sure he's in position to succeed and it's on him to recognize his limitations.

If he sticks to corner 3s and defense, combined with an extended KO, that is a lot of value for a 28/29 pick.

My concern is that he has a bit of that Precious streak in him, where he just plays outside his abilities. Hopefully the staff can reign that in.

That's fair. But like you said, that's on the coaches. 2 coaching staffs failed with Precious until Thibs played him to his strengths.

[Scase]

Agbaji is being underrated in my opinion. Some of the takes are going to age as well as the pre-January Dick comments.

We've seen what he can't do (handle ball, create, above the break 3s) and what he often struggles to do (finish). But what he can do is extremely valuable (on ball defender, POA defender, cut, corner 3s).

It's on the coaching staff to make sure he's in position to succeed and it's on him to recognize his limitations.

If he sticks to corner 3s and defense, combined with an extended KO, that is a lot of value for a 28/29 pick.

My concern is that he has a bit of that Precious streak in him, where he just plays outside his abilities. Hopefully the staff can reign that in.

That's fair. But like you said, that's on the coaches. 2 coaching staffs failed with Precious until Thibs played him to his strengths.

Which is absolutely a valid point, but if you lack the coaching personnel to handle that limitation, it's best not to trade for those types of players IMO. You don't trade for Nash when you run the slowest offence in the league etc, gotta get the fit for the team I think.

Maybe they can fix it, but I don't see GTJ, or Precious ever getting better here with their lapses, so I don't have faith that this will be any different.

[ArthurVandelay]

My concern is that he has a bit of that Precious streak in him, where he just plays outside his abilities. Hopefully the staff can reign that in.

That's fair. But like you said, that's on the coaches. 2 coaching staffs failed with Precious until Thibs played him to his strengths.

Which is absolutely a valid point, but if you lack the coaching personnel to handle that limitation, it's best not to trade for those types of players IMO. You don't trade for Nash when you run the slowest offence in the league etc, gotta get the fit for the team I think.

Maybe they can fix it, but I don't see GTJ, or Precious ever getting better here with their lapses, so I don't have faith that this will be any different.

There was 2 and 3 plus years to form opinions on Precious and Gary. Those guys basketball IQ is about as deep as a puddle and definitely don't fit with how Darko is trying to play.

I'm not ready to write off Agbaji just yet after just under 2 months. The Denver game he didn't try to do too much and he was pretty effective in his role.

[Scase]

That's fair. But like you said, that's on the coaches. 2 coaching staffs failed with Precious until Thibs played him to his strengths.

Which is absolutely a valid point, but if you lack the coaching personnel to handle that limitation, it's best not to trade for those types of players IMO. You don't trade for Nash when you run the slowest offence in the league etc, gotta get the fit for the team I think.

Maybe they can fix it, but I don't see GTJ, or Precious ever getting better here with their lapses, so I don't have faith that this will be any different.

There was 2 and 3 plus years to form opinions on Precious and Gary. Those guys basketball IQ is about as deep as a puddle and definitely don't fit with how Darko is trying to play.

I'm not ready to write off Agbaji just yet after just under 2 months. The Denver game he didn't try to do too much and he was pretty effective in his role.

I don't think it's fair to discount the year+ that he has played in Utah. Nor should we discount that he was/is a 4 year college player, GTJ/Precious were 1 and done. Expectations for a player with that much high level play coming into the NBA are higher IMO.

I'm not saying he's a waste of roster space or anything, but I haven't seen much that has looked good.

[YogurtProducer]

If Agbaji develops a 3 he will be a good player. If he doesn't develop a 3 he will be tough to play.

Not that complicated

[Duffman100]

If Agbaji develops a 3 he will be a good player. If he doesn't develop a 3 he will be tough to play.

Not that complicated

Yup it's pretty that.

If he unlocks his dribble drive (along with the 3) we got something special.

But let's focus on the 3 first.

[ArthurVandelay]

Which is absolutely a valid point, but if you lack the coaching personnel to handle that limitation, it's best not to trade for those types of players IMO. You don't trade for Nash when you run the slowest offence in the league etc, gotta get the fit for the team I think.

Maybe they can fix it, but I don't see GTJ, or Precious ever getting better here with their lapses, so I don't have faith that this will be any different.

There was 2 and 3 plus years to form opinions on Precious and Gary. Those guys basketball IQ is about as deep as a puddle and definitely don't fit with how Darko is trying to play.

I'm not ready to write off Agbaji just yet after just under 2 months. The Denver game he didn't try to do too much and he was pretty effective in his role.

I don't think it's fair to discount the year+ that he has played in Utah. Nor should we discount that he was/is a 4 year college player, GTJ/Precious were 1 and done. Expectations for a player with that much high level play coming into the NBA are higher IMO.

I'm not saying he's a waste of roster space or anything, but I haven't seen much that has looked good.

He hit 45% of his corner 3s and statically played some of the best perimeter defense in the league. That is something of value that can be worked with.

[Duffman100]

There was 2 and 3 plus years to form opinions on Precious and Gary. Those guys basketball IQ is about as deep as a puddle and definitely don't fit with how Darko is trying to play.

I'm not ready to write off Agbaji just yet after just under 2 months. The Denver game he didn't try to do too much and he was pretty effective in his role.

I don't think it's fair to discount the year+ that he has played in Utah. Nor should we discount that he was/is a 4 year college player, GTJ/Precious were 1 and done. Expectations for a player with that much high level play coming into the NBA are higher IMO.

I'm not saying he's a waste of roster space or anything, but I haven't seen much that has looked good.

He hit 45% of his corner 3s and statically played some of the best perimeter defense in the league. That is something of value that can be worked with.

I feel like the old scouts from Moneyball, but his shot LOOKS good. Like you can see why it should go in.

[Tor_Raps]

If Agbaji develops a 3 he will be a good player. If he doesn't develop a 3 he will be tough to play.

Not that complicated

Yup it's pretty that.

If he unlocks his dribble drive (along with the 3) we got something special.

But let's focus on the 3 first.

Sounds like a lot of players we've had over the past few years lol. I do agree though that he only needs to be a good catch and shoot player for this deal to become a home run.

[Scase]

There was 2 and 3 plus years to form opinions on Precious and Gary. Those guys basketball IQ is about as deep as a puddle and definitely don't fit with how Darko is trying to play.

I'm not ready to write off Agbaji just yet after just under 2 months. The Denver game he didn't try to do too much and he was pretty effective in his role.

I don't think it's fair to discount the year+ that he has played in Utah. Nor should we discount that he was/is a 4 year college player, GTJ/Precious were 1 and done. Expectations for a player with that much high level play coming into the NBA are higher IMO.

I'm not saying he's a waste of roster space or anything, but I haven't seen much that has looked good.

He hit 45% of his corner 3s and statically played some of the best perimeter defense in the league. That is something of value that can be worked with.

The problem is that most of his shots are not from the corner. And he's really only good from one corner. This year he's only had 82 of his 177 3's from the corners, and 43 of those he's shooting 35% on them, league average being 39%.

Over his (short) career it doesn't change much either, 179 of 405 attempts are from the corner, and only 48 of those are being shot at a good clip, the other corner he shoots below league average 37% vs 39%, or just horrendous percents above the break at 26%.

He's basically a good shooter from a single place on the entire court. And that's off a pretty small sample size as well, I wouldn't claim someone is a great shooter off essentially less than 50 career attempts.

His defence is nice, but it isn't good enough to justify the negative he is on the court. Can this change, for sure, but this isn't a highly touted prospect or anything, so chances are it doesn't get all that great. I'd be happy to be wrong.

[ArthurVandelay]

I don't think it's fair to discount the year+ that he has played in Utah. Nor should we discount that he was/is a 4 year college player, GTJ/Precious were 1 and done. Expectations for a player with that much high level play coming into the NBA are higher IMO.

I'm not saying he's a waste of roster space or anything, but I haven't seen much that has looked good.

He hit 45% of his corner 3s and statically played some of the best perimeter defense in the league. That is something of value that can be worked with.

The problem is that most of his shots are not from the corner. And he's really only good from one corner. This year he's only had 82 of his 177 3's from the corners, and 43 of those he's shooting 35% on them, league average being 39%.

Over his (short) career it doesn't change much either, 179 of 405 attempts are from the corner, and only 48 of those are being shot at a good clip, the other corner he shoots below league average 37% vs 39%, or just horrendous percents above the break at 26%.

He's basically a good shooter from a single place on the entire court. And that's off a pretty small sample size as well, I wouldn't claim someone is a great shooter off essentially less than 50 career attempts.

His defence is nice, but it isn't good enough to justify the negative he is on the court. Can this change, for sure, but this isn't a highly touted prospect or anything, so chances are it doesn't get all that great. I'd be happy to be wrong.

You’re not having a conversation here. You pretend to be objective and open minded and claim you could be wrong, but then definitely state how another person is totally wrong and Agbaji is done yet you’ve ignored things I’ve already stated numerous times about what Agbaji needs to do to be an effective player. Your shooting stats lifted from basketball reference or nba site only confirm my previously stated opinions of what he needs to do and what the coaches need to do to ensure he is utilized to his strengths.

This is mind boggling.

[ForeverTFC]

Agbaji is being underrated in my opinion. Some of the takes are going to age as well as the pre-January Dick comments.

We've seen what he can't do (handle ball, create, above the break 3s) and what he often struggles to do (finish). But what he can do is extremely valuable (on ball defender, POA defender, cut, corner 3s).

It's on the coaching staff to make sure he's in position to succeed and it's on him to recognize his limitations.

If he sticks to corner 3s and defense, combined with an extended KO, that is a lot of value for a 28/29 pick.

My concern is that he has a bit of that Precious streak in him, where he just plays outside his abilities. Hopefully the staff can reign that in.

Let's see if that is still the case for him with Scottie back in the new season. His strengths are exactly what you need for a role player around Scottie. Low usage defender with ability to space in the corners and cut. Without Scottie around, I'm totally fine allowing these guys to extend beyond their current skillset so we can see what we have. I believe Darko will reign him in next year and I believe Ochai will fall in line to get his next contract.

The difference between him and Precious is that Precious has the athletic profile that allows folks to talk themselves into his potential for a much longer duration than Ochai. I think that will work in our benefit as Ochai will see the writing on the wall around his role much faster and will likely accept it much easier.

[Scase]

He hit 45% of his corner 3s and statically played some of the best perimeter defense in the league. That is something of value that can be worked with.

The problem is that most of his shots are not from the corner. And he's really only good from one corner. This year he's only had 82 of his 177 3's from the corners, and 43 of those he's shooting 35% on them, league average being 39%.

Over his (short) career it doesn't change much either, 179 of 405 attempts are from the corner, and only 48 of those are being shot at a good clip, the other corner he shoots below league average 37% vs 39%, or just horrendous percents above the break at 26%.

He's basically a good shooter from a single place on the entire court. And that's off a pretty small sample size as well, I wouldn't claim someone is a great shooter off essentially less than 50 career attempts.

His defence is nice, but it isn't good enough to justify the negative he is on the court. Can this change, for sure, but this isn't a highly touted prospect or anything, so chances are it doesn't get all that great. I'd be happy to be wrong.

You’re not having a conversation here. You pretend to be objective and open minded and claim you could be wrong, but then definitely state how another person is totally wrong and Agbaji is done yet you’ve ignored things I’ve already stated numerous times about what Agbaji needs to do to be an effective player. Your shooting stats lifted from basketball reference only confirm my previously stated opinions of what he needs to do and what the coaches need to do to ensure he is utilized to his strengths.

This is mind boggling.

I'm simply providing context to what you said, I don't see how that is stating that anything is "done".

You said he has hit 45% of his corner threes, and I provided the context of where and how he hit them. How exactly is that NOT objective, like it is a literal fact that he is only shooting well from a single place on the court.

How is raising a counter to your point not a conversation? I'm actually confused here. I never discounted what you said about the work the coaches need to do, in my own post above I said him playing outside of his game is something I hope the coaching staff can reign in.

But if you're going to use a blanket statement and say a player shoots 45% from the corner, why is it an issue for me to point out the specific details of said claim?

As of now, he offers good shooting from a singular area on the court, and good defence. I never said he's worthless, I'm being realistic. Like damn man, if you can't handle someone pointing out base level stats of a player without getting offended, I don't know what to say here.

I'm clearly stating that he CAN get better, but based on his perceived potential, it's not likely that he becomes a lights out 45% shooter from both corners of the court and a lockdown defender. How is this a controversial statement?

You can't claim it's not a conversation, just because I provided additional context to a statement. Your response here is the only thing that is mind boggling.

[ArthurVandelay]

The problem is that most of his shots are not from the corner. And he's really only good from one corner. This year he's only had 82 of his 177 3's from the corners, and 43 of those he's shooting 35% on them, league average being 39%.

Over his (short) career it doesn't change much either, 179 of 405 attempts are from the corner, and only 48 of those are being shot at a good clip, the other corner he shoots below league average 37% vs 39%, or just horrendous percents above the break at 26%.

He's basically a good shooter from a single place on the entire court. And that's off a pretty small sample size as well, I wouldn't claim someone is a great shooter off essentially less than 50 career attempts.

His defence is nice, but it isn't good enough to justify the negative he is on the court. Can this change, for sure, but this isn't a highly touted prospect or anything, so chances are it doesn't get all that great. I'd be happy to be wrong.

You’re not having a conversation here. You pretend to be objective and open minded and claim you could be wrong, but then definitely state how another person is totally wrong and Agbaji is done yet you’ve ignored things I’ve already stated numerous times about what Agbaji needs to do to be an effective player. Your shooting stats lifted from basketball reference only confirm my previously stated opinions of what he needs to do and what the coaches need to do to ensure he is utilized to his strengths.

This is mind boggling.

I'm simply providing context to what you said, I don't see how that is stating that anything is "done".

You said he has hit 45% of his corner threes, and I provided the context of where and how he hit them. How exactly is that NOT objective, like it is a literal fact that he is only shooting well from a single place on the court.

How is raising a counter to your point not a conversation? I'm actually confused here. I never discounted what you said about the work the coaches need to do, in my own post above I said him playing outside of his game is something I hope the coaching staff can reign in.

But if you're going to use a blanket statement and say a player shoots 45% from the corner, why is it an issue for me to point out the specific details of said claim?

As of now, he offers good shooting from a singular area on the court, and good defence. I never said he's worthless, I'm being realistic. Like damn man, if you can't handle someone pointing out base level stats of a player without getting offended, I don't know what to say here.

I'm clearly stating that he CAN get better, but based on his perceived potential, it's not likely that he becomes a lights out 45% shooter from both corners of the court and a lockdown defender. How is this a controversial statement?

You can't claim it's not a conversation, just because I provided additional context to a statement. Your response here is the only thing that is mind boggling.

You’re condescending. You don’t think I know the number of corner 3s and total attempts he’s taken?

Guess what? He’s elite from one corner and a little below average from the other. Put together he hits 45% from the corners in Utah.

The conclusions you draw from these stats and your statements put forth as definitive gospel is what’s mind boggling, especially when taking a look at your post history, as others did yesterday, shows a poster who knows about as much as the rest of us.

You don’t like Masai, I get it.
You don’t like anything he’s done the last 4 years outside Barnes, I get it.
You don’t like trading 28/29th pick for 2 rotation pieces, I get it.
You don’t think Ochai has an NBA future, I get it.

Personally I haven’t written his future and am hopeful to watch him grow. I see his positives and am aware of his shortcomings. No one knows what’s going to happen. If he sticks to the corners, cutting, and defense that is a valuable NBA rotational player….but you do you man, clutch your pearls, stand on your soap box and continue telling everyone about the lost opportunity with the 28/29 pick.