WOJ: Raps get Olynyk & Agbaji for 24' 1st Rd Pick, Otto Porter, Kira Lewis

[Duffman100]

Ok, but why not do both? He was a UFA, keep the pick, draft a replacement big, and sign him for a contract. There's no way he's turning down playing for the Raps.

So we essentially burned a pick to get Ochai, who is realistically, like an 8-10th guy off the bench, at best. It was a 28th OA pick, so I'm not losing any sleep over it, but it seems kinda like a waste.

Just because Olynyk was a FA, did not guarantee he would sign with the Raps. There were many teams interested in him, so if the Raps didn't pull the trigger on the deal, he most likely would have ended up on another team, and they could have easily resigned him.

If he isn't willing to sign here as a free agent, He isnt worth the mystery box that may contain more than half a decade of cost controlled talent, which could be a game changer. kelly isn't the type of player that's worth sacrificing anything to get (at least not at this stage of his career, or our current stage of rebuilding)

Feels like Ainge finessed Masai into giving up something for something he wants to throw away (both Kelly and Ochai)

But we get a portion of that control with Ochai. We get two years less control, but we still get some. So we can't discount that in terms of the trade

[DreamTeam09]

Why on earth are ppl complaining about a pick that's currently like 27th while we have the 31st pick. Taking a gamble on ochai for the 27th pick is bad mgmt in what universe?
We still could possibly take Zach edey if we feel like he's worthy of a selection.
This was an A- move thru n thru. Young 3+D player to mold and a vet spacing big who's able to compliment the things we are actually trying to do on the basketball court. Kelly was pinpointed because this team needed to stretch big to pair with Barnes n RJ and that's what we got

[Duffman100]

Why on earth are ppl complaining about a pick that's currently like 27th while we have the 31st pick. Taking a gamble on ochai for the 27th pick is bad mgmt in what universe?
We still could possibly take Zach edey if we feel like he's worthy of a selection.
This was an A- move thru n thru. Young 3+D player to mold and a vet spacing big who's able to compliment the things we are actually trying to do on the basketball court. Kelly was pinpointed because this team needed to stretch big to pair with Barnes n RJ and that's what we got

Because it's a mystery box that could be anything. As soon as a player is drafted, the 27th pick ceases to be a "potential Jokic" and it becomes a very concrete value. Picks are never as valuable as before they're picked.

[Scase]

Just because Olynyk was a FA, did not guarantee he would sign with the Raps. There were many teams interested in him, so if the Raps didn't pull the trigger on the deal, he most likely would have ended up on another team, and they could have easily resigned him.

If he isn't willing to sign here as a free agent, He isnt worth the mystery box that may contain more than half a decade of cost controlled talent, which could be a game changer. kelly isn't the type of player that's worth sacrificing anything to get (at least not at this stage of his career, or our current stage of rebuilding)

Feels like Ainge finessed Masai into giving up something for something he wants to throw away (both Kelly and Ochai)

But we get a portion of that control with Ochai. We get two years less control, but we still get some. So we can't discount that in terms of the trade

Yeah, you also pay a little less than twice as much in salary. In 2023 the salary for the 28th pick was 56% of the 14th pick.

[Duffman100]

If he isn't willing to sign here as a free agent, He isnt worth the mystery box that may contain more than half a decade of cost controlled talent, which could be a game changer. kelly isn't the type of player that's worth sacrificing anything to get (at least not at this stage of his career, or our current stage of rebuilding)

Feels like Ainge finessed Masai into giving up something for something he wants to throw away (both Kelly and Ochai)

But we get a portion of that control with Ochai. We get two years less control, but we still get some. So we can't discount that in terms of the trade

Yeah, you also pay a little less than twice as much in salary. In 2023 the salary for the 28th pick was 56% of the 14th pick.

Sure, there are pros and cons. The key isn't that we lost ALL control of the 28th pick for just KO.

It's

28th pick - with lower salary, 2 years longer of control than Ochai, etc.

vs

KO
Ochai

[Scase]

But we get a portion of that control with Ochai. We get two years less control, but we still get some. So we can't discount that in terms of the trade

Yeah, you also pay a little less than twice as much in salary. In 2023 the salary for the 28th pick was 56% of the 14th pick.

Sure, there are pros and cons. The key isn't that we lost ALL control of the 28th pick for just KO.

It's

28th pick - with lower salary, 2 years longer of control than Ochai, etc.

vs

KO
Ochai

This is assuming that getting KO in FA was not possible, which most signs point to it being pretty probable with how much he's stated he's always wanted to play here, and wants to retire here.

As I stated, my preferred course of action was to go after him in the off season, and then use the pick. The 28th pick allows the choice of the position and player, Ochai was just what Utah wanted to move. I would much rather have had the flexibility of the pick, both from a salary and player perspective. Ideally drafting a big in the same vein as KO and have him mentor him as such.

[Duffman100]

Yeah, you also pay a little less than twice as much in salary. In 2023 the salary for the 28th pick was 56% of the 14th pick.

Sure, there are pros and cons. The key isn't that we lost ALL control of the 28th pick for just KO.

It's

28th pick - with lower salary, 2 years longer of control than Ochai, etc.

vs

KO
Ochai

This is assuming that getting KO in FA was not possible, which most signs point to it being pretty probable with how much he's stated he's always wanted to play here, and wants to retire here.

As I stated, my preferred course of action was to go after him in the off season, and then use the pick. The 28th pick allows the choice of the position and player, Ochai was just what Utah wanted to move. I would much rather have had the flexibility of the pick, both from a salary and player perspective. Ideally drafting a big in the same vein as KO and have him mentor him as such.

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

[Tor_Raps]

Why on earth are ppl complaining about a pick that's currently like 27th while we have the 31st pick. Taking a gamble on ochai for the 27th pick is bad mgmt in what universe?
We still could possibly take Zach edey if we feel like he's worthy of a selection.
This was an A- move thru n thru. Young 3+D player to mold and a vet spacing big who's able to compliment the things we are actually trying to do on the basketball court. Kelly was pinpointed because this team needed to stretch big to pair with Barnes n RJ and that's what we got

Because it's a mystery box that could be anything. As soon as a player is drafted, the 27th pick ceases to be a "potential Jokic" and it becomes a very concrete value. Picks are never as valuable as before they're picked.

But isn't that the same logic a lot of folks are using to make the Siakam trade look good?

Now don't get me wrong, I was surprised with the trade at first since I thought we were gonna be the team looking to get picks, not trade them... I have no issues with the trade even if Ochai is looking like a guard version of Precious.

[Duffman100]

Why on earth are ppl complaining about a pick that's currently like 27th while we have the 31st pick. Taking a gamble on ochai for the 27th pick is bad mgmt in what universe?
We still could possibly take Zach edey if we feel like he's worthy of a selection.
This was an A- move thru n thru. Young 3+D player to mold and a vet spacing big who's able to compliment the things we are actually trying to do on the basketball court. Kelly was pinpointed because this team needed to stretch big to pair with Barnes n RJ and that's what we got

Because it's a mystery box that could be anything. As soon as a player is drafted, the 27th pick ceases to be a "potential Jokic" and it becomes a very concrete value. Picks are never as valuable as before they're picked.

But isn't that the same logic a lot of folks are using to make the Siakam trade look good?

Now don't get me wrong, I was surprised with the trade at first since I thought we were gonna be the team looking to get picks, not trade them... I have no issues with the trade even if Ochai is looking like a guard version of Precious.

It may be? I dunno, I don't think the Siakam trade really is all that good. Mid to late 1sts rarely offer THAT much value.

I do like having multiple picks coming up in the coming years, but it was a lot less than I thought we'd get for Pascal.

[kalel123]

Because it's a mystery box that could be anything. As soon as a player is drafted, the 27th pick ceases to be a "potential Jokic" and it becomes a very concrete value. Picks are never as valuable as before they're picked.

But isn't that the same logic a lot of folks are using to make the Siakam trade look good?

Now don't get me wrong, I was surprised with the trade at first since I thought we were gonna be the team looking to get picks, not trade them... I have no issues with the trade even if Ochai is looking like a guard version of Precious.

It may be? I dunno, I don't think the Siakam trade really is all that good. Mid to late 1sts rarely offer THAT much value.

I do like having multiple picks coming up in the coming years, but it was a lot less than I thought we'd get for Pascal.

Siakam trade was terrible any which way you slice it. The picks are just smoke and mirrors for people to be able to say "we can't fully evaluate the trade until all picks are conveyed." In reality, the picks are mediocre at best, we got no prospects worth a damn, and a mediocre role player who is another part of the smoke and mirrors because of the "interesting" contract structure that means nothing if you can't trade it away and they already missed the first window to do so.

[Duffman100]

But isn't that the same logic a lot of folks are using to make the Siakam trade look good?

Now don't get me wrong, I was surprised with the trade at first since I thought we were gonna be the team looking to get picks, not trade them... I have no issues with the trade even if Ochai is looking like a guard version of Precious.

It may be? I dunno, I don't think the Siakam trade really is all that good. Mid to late 1sts rarely offer THAT much value.

I do like having multiple picks coming up in the coming years, but it was a lot less than I thought we'd get for Pascal.

Siakam trade was terrible any which way you slice it. The picks are just smoke and mirrors for people to be able to say "we can't fully evaluate the trade until all picks are conveyed." In reality, the picks are mediocre at best, we got no prospects worth a damn, and a mediocre role player who is another part of the smoke and mirrors because of the "interesting" contract structure that means nothing if you can't trade it away and they already missed the first window to do so.

I mean, you can't really say a trade is 'terribe' when the majority of the return on the trade hasn't played out yet.

Similar to calling a rookie a bust after 30 games.

[Chandan]

It may be? I dunno, I don't think the Siakam trade really is all that good. Mid to late 1sts rarely offer THAT much value.

I do like having multiple picks coming up in the coming years, but it was a lot less than I thought we'd get for Pascal.

Siakam trade was terrible any which way you slice it. The picks are just smoke and mirrors for people to be able to say "we can't fully evaluate the trade until all picks are conveyed." In reality, the picks are mediocre at best, we got no prospects worth a damn, and a mediocre role player who is another part of the smoke and mirrors because of the "interesting" contract structure that means nothing if you can't trade it away and they already missed the first window to do so.

I mean, you can't really say a trade is 'terribe' when the majority of the return on the trade hasn't played out yet.

Similar to calling a rookie a bust after 30 games.

i dont think it's TERRIBLE. But it's certainly not min-maxing or winning by the margins. It's essentially a pick for Ochai because Kelly would have signed here anyways on his own accord. And nothing has suggested to me that Ochai is even better than Flynn/Banton whom we were happy to just throw away.

So it really comes down to rather you believe in Ochai at all.

[Scase]

Sure, there are pros and cons. The key isn't that we lost ALL control of the 28th pick for just KO.

It's

28th pick - with lower salary, 2 years longer of control than Ochai, etc.

vs

KO
Ochai

This is assuming that getting KO in FA was not possible, which most signs point to it being pretty probable with how much he's stated he's always wanted to play here, and wants to retire here.

As I stated, my preferred course of action was to go after him in the off season, and then use the pick. The 28th pick allows the choice of the position and player, Ochai was just what Utah wanted to move. I would much rather have had the flexibility of the pick, both from a salary and player perspective. Ideally drafting a big in the same vein as KO and have him mentor him as such.

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

Possibly, but I'm no cap expert. I think the only thing that would modify it are that we held his bird rights. I don't think it has a tangible impact, I could be wrong though.

As for the pick, I mean yeah you could, or you could make 2 picks lol. I'd rather 2 kicks at the can vs 1 and a 4 year college player that has shown nothing in almost 2 full years.

Again, not earth shattering, but I'd rather have more options, not less.

[2019nbachamps]

Our FO has been bad but I wouldn’t nit pick over this trade. Whoever we want at 27 will likely be available at 32. In a few years time this trade will likely be neutral at worst in terms of impact and a slight win if Olnyk keeps up this production. Moves like the Poeltl trade and holding onto FVV and Pascal for too long are the hard ones to stomach.

[kalel123]

It may be? I dunno, I don't think the Siakam trade really is all that good. Mid to late 1sts rarely offer THAT much value.

I do like having multiple picks coming up in the coming years, but it was a lot less than I thought we'd get for Pascal.

Siakam trade was terrible any which way you slice it. The picks are just smoke and mirrors for people to be able to say "we can't fully evaluate the trade until all picks are conveyed." In reality, the picks are mediocre at best, we got no prospects worth a damn, and a mediocre role player who is another part of the smoke and mirrors because of the "interesting" contract structure that means nothing if you can't trade it away and they already missed the first window to do so.

I mean, you can't really say a trade is 'terribe' when the majority of the return on the trade hasn't played out yet.

Similar to calling a rookie a bust after 30 games.

See what I mean? Ready-made excuses when in reality, chances are high that the picks will not amount to much in comparison to what we gave away. But as long as people can cling to thinnest sliver of hope, they'll happily blind themselves to do it even as you admit return was a lot less than what you thought.

[islandboy53]

Sure, there are pros and cons. The key isn't that we lost ALL control of the 28th pick for just KO.

It's

28th pick - with lower salary, 2 years longer of control than Ochai, etc.

vs

KO
Ochai

This is assuming that getting KO in FA was not possible, which most signs point to it being pretty probable with how much he's stated he's always wanted to play here, and wants to retire here.

As I stated, my preferred course of action was to go after him in the off season, and then use the pick. The 28th pick allows the choice of the position and player, Ochai was just what Utah wanted to move. I would much rather have had the flexibility of the pick, both from a salary and player perspective. Ideally drafting a big in the same vein as KO and have him mentor him as such.

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

Kelly would have had no shortage of suitors in free agency, and one or several may have been willing to offer more than the MLE level amount we gave him, and/or more than 2 years. Maybe you end up with the same deal, but it's equally possible that you pay him more, for longer or maybe you don't get him at all. The trade gave us control over the situation which would never have been available in free agency. Also, Kelly's comments were nothing less than you'd expect after this signing. He'd have said similar things in July about whatever alternate team signed him.

As noted, pick 31 will get you more or less the same player as pick 27/28/29, whatever it ends up being. The relative cost of Ochai versus that pick, is nominal in the short term and if in 2 years he becomes actually expensive, that's a good thing, because it means he's developed into the player we hope he will. It's also important to note that, while Ochai may have been the player Utah wanted to move, he was also the player we wanted to receive, otherwise the trade wouldn't have happened.

[Duffman100]

Siakam trade was terrible any which way you slice it. The picks are just smoke and mirrors for people to be able to say "we can't fully evaluate the trade until all picks are conveyed." In reality, the picks are mediocre at best, we got no prospects worth a damn, and a mediocre role player who is another part of the smoke and mirrors because of the "interesting" contract structure that means nothing if you can't trade it away and they already missed the first window to do so.

I mean, you can't really say a trade is 'terribe' when the majority of the return on the trade hasn't played out yet.

Similar to calling a rookie a bust after 30 games.

See what I mean? Ready-made excuses when in reality, chances are high that the picks will not amount to much in comparison to what we gave away. But as long as people can cling to thinnest sliver of hope, they'll happily blind themselves to do it even as you admit return was a lot less than what you thought.

The ready made excuse that the result of the trade hasn’t been realized? And you can’t call something terrible that hasn’t had a full result yet?

[nikster]

Sure, there are pros and cons. The key isn't that we lost ALL control of the 28th pick for just KO.

It's

28th pick - with lower salary, 2 years longer of control than Ochai, etc.

vs

KO
Ochai

This is assuming that getting KO in FA was not possible, which most signs point to it being pretty probable with how much he's stated he's always wanted to play here, and wants to retire here.

As I stated, my preferred course of action was to go after him in the off season, and then use the pick. The 28th pick allows the choice of the position and player, Ochai was just what Utah wanted to move. I would much rather have had the flexibility of the pick, both from a salary and player perspective. Ideally drafting a big in the same vein as KO and have him mentor him as such.

Weren't there salary implications with us extending him vs signing him outright in FA?

And we can still draft that big with the 31st pick (literally 3-4 picks later)

Olynyk in his interview also mentioned 1) that he appreciated they wanted him enough to trade for him and 2) he could get his contract done before the summer so he can focus on Olympics. So it's not a given he gets to FA if traded elsewhere

[Dalek]

I can live with this trade because Kelly just wins you over with his old-man YMCA game. I love how he was terrorizing Denver last night. In smaller doses he will be great. He also is a perfect model for Jontay Porter, who I think will catch on long term here.

Ochai is a nervous wreck on court and it is weird how invisible he can be, but hopefully Darko can develop him. He does have some unreal strength at his size. Reminds me of Joey Graham.

[Badonkadonk]

Why on earth are ppl complaining about a pick that's currently like 27th while we have the 31st pick. Taking a gamble on ochai for the 27th pick is bad mgmt in what universe?
We still could possibly take Zach edey if we feel like he's worthy of a selection.
This was an A- move thru n thru. Young 3+D player to mold and a vet spacing big who's able to compliment the things we are actually trying to do on the basketball court. Kelly was pinpointed because this team needed to stretch big to pair with Barnes n RJ and that's what we got

The worst part about the whining is that to date, Kelly Olynyk has produced at roughly the same rate as Pascal Siakam (posted the detail in the horribly misguided "Pascal-for-nothing thread").

So we essentially flipped the component of the Indy deal that had the least value (~27th pick in '24) for a guy in a position of need that has been in the same ballpark of effectiveness as the centerpiece of the original deal, as well as a player who has a legitimate path to usefulness as a rotation player in Ochai (defensively he's there; need his corner 3 to settle in the mid 30s).

It was an objectively positive-value deal.