Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai!

[Duffman100]

Yep you caught me, talking out of 2 sides of my mouth after I completely and openly state I don't think he deserved an AS selection, but apparently stating the fact that he was an AS, means it's double speak. You got me there Nancy Drew, what's on the docket for your next mystery?

Nope you saying he didn't deserve to be an allstar but then using his all star status to boost a different argument is talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's actually quite simple and straightforward.

But you're never wrong, so we'll just move on.

I used his AS status as an objective achievement/career milestone that he attained, regardless of my feelings towards him as a player, it happened.

And again, you asked if I still felt he was undeserving, I said yes. Hardly double speak, more like your inability to disassociate from other conversations from months prior that are unrelated. I will happily admit when I am wrong, hell, I admitted as such this morning about the Suggs pick.

Just because you and the other cheerleaders love to nitpick and pounce on my posts the absolute second there is a ray of sunlight for you to go "BUT ACKHTUALLY", doesn't mean I have the inability to admit fault.

I've clarified multiple times what exactly I meant when I said it, so maybe I was WRONG in how I worded it. But now that, that has been resolved and cleared up, you like to keep picking away. You do you I guess.

"You're right, I was using an accolade in my argument that I had previously devalued as not legitimate. That probably wasn't the right thing to do".

It's just so easy to say.

[Scase]

I'm sorry, but if you're taking the position that Fred didn't deserve an all-star selection, then the majority of the Raptors post Bosh, including Scottie, didn't deserve their selection either.

In his second ASG selection, Bosh was putting up 22/11/3, and the Raptors were 4th in the east. In his first season, no I don't think he deserved it. Other than that, he was a perennial 20/10 guy essentially his entire tenure here, so I have no real qualms overall.

Scottie, it's a toss up between him and Banchero. But I weigh team performance as the tie breaker when both players are putting up similar numbers/impact, so yeah, he probably didn't either. If not for Randle being injured, he wouldn't have been selected.

Siakam, his first one, absolutely earned. Second one, eh, I could go either way.

So yeah, I agree with your statement.

Bosh definitely deserved it, that's why I said Post Bosh selections. But overall, I disagree with you that they didn't deserve it. They didn't deserve to be starters or locks, sure. But they were all playing at the same level as the bottom 3rd quartile of any All-star pool. Just because they're not top half all-stars doesn't mean they didn't deserve it.

Ah my bad I misread that, I thought you meant Bosh and beyond.

And as for disagreeing, that's absolutely fine I have no qualms, these are after all, just my opinions. I'm not the be all end all of AS selections lol.

In my eyes, injury reserves are a step below regular reserves, which are a step below starters (usually, past china voting be damned). I think similarly producing players should have the tie breaker be team performance, I'm not going to say anyone else is wrong to disagree.

I just think injury reserves are the textbook definition of "undeserving". IMO, had you been deserving, you'd have been on the reserves list as selected by the coaches. It's great, it's an accolade, be proud of it, you still got picked over a bunch of other players as the replacement, but it's still a replacement pick

[Scase]

Nope you saying he didn't deserve to be an allstar but then using his all star status to boost a different argument is talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's actually quite simple and straightforward.

But you're never wrong, so we'll just move on.

I used his AS status as an objective achievement/career milestone that he attained, regardless of my feelings towards him as a player, it happened.

And again, you asked if I still felt he was undeserving, I said yes. Hardly double speak, more like your inability to disassociate from other conversations from months prior that are unrelated. I will happily admit when I am wrong, hell, I admitted as such this morning about the Suggs pick.

Just because you and the other cheerleaders love to nitpick and pounce on my posts the absolute second there is a ray of sunlight for you to go "BUT ACKHTUALLY", doesn't mean I have the inability to admit fault.

I've clarified multiple times what exactly I meant when I said it, so maybe I was WRONG in how I worded it. But now that, that has been resolved and cleared up, you like to keep picking away. You do you I guess.

"You're right, I was using an accolade in my argument that I had previously devalued as not legitimate. That probably wasn't the right thing to do".

It's just so easy to say.

I used an objective accolade that I don't agree with. So I'm not allowed to reference it because I don't agree with it? I guess it's time for me to go back and report every post where he's being called an all star.

I am not the determining factor of an AS selection, just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live in reality, I understand these are my opinions.

My opinion is that I don't think he deserved to be an all star. Facts dictate that under Nurse, FVV was selected as an all star. Give it a rest with the gotcha moments, your half assed approach isn't going to get me to say you were right because you have trouble differentiating my opinion from an objective result.

[Duffman100]

I used his AS status as an objective achievement/career milestone that he attained, regardless of my feelings towards him as a player, it happened.

And again, you asked if I still felt he was undeserving, I said yes. Hardly double speak, more like your inability to disassociate from other conversations from months prior that are unrelated. I will happily admit when I am wrong, hell, I admitted as such this morning about the Suggs pick.

Just because you and the other cheerleaders love to nitpick and pounce on my posts the absolute second there is a ray of sunlight for you to go "BUT ACKHTUALLY", doesn't mean I have the inability to admit fault.

I've clarified multiple times what exactly I meant when I said it, so maybe I was WRONG in how I worded it. But now that, that has been resolved and cleared up, you like to keep picking away. You do you I guess.

"You're right, I was using an accolade in my argument that I had previously devalued as not legitimate. That probably wasn't the right thing to do".

It's just so easy to say.

I used an objective accolade that I don't agree with. So I'm not allowed to reference it because I don't agree with it? I guess it's time for me to go back and report every post where he's being called an all star.

I am not the determining factor of an AS selection, just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live in reality, I understand these are my opinions.

My opinion is that I don't think he deserved to be an all star. Facts dictate that under Nurse, FVV was selected as an all star. Give it a rest with the gotcha moments, your half assed approach isn't going to get me to say you were right because you have trouble differentiating my opinion from an objective result.

So Nurse gets credit for developing Fred into an All Star but Fred doesn't get the credit for being an All Star.

How can you possibly reconcile this?

[Scase]

"You're right, I was using an accolade in my argument that I had previously devalued as not legitimate. That probably wasn't the right thing to do".

It's just so easy to say.

I used an objective accolade that I don't agree with. So I'm not allowed to reference it because I don't agree with it? I guess it's time for me to go back and report every post where he's being called an all star.

I am not the determining factor of an AS selection, just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live in reality, I understand these are my opinions.

My opinion is that I don't think he deserved to be an all star. Facts dictate that under Nurse, FVV was selected as an all star. Give it a rest with the gotcha moments, your half assed approach isn't going to get me to say you were right because you have trouble differentiating my opinion from an objective result.

So Nurse gets credit for developing Fred into an All Star but Fred doesn't get the credit for being an All Star.

How can you possibly reconcile this?

Oh nice, now we're discussing who gets entire credit for something that is a collective result. Brilliant. Take your broken deductive reasoning elsewhere, I'm not playing this silly game. He developed under Nurse, therefore Nurse gets some credit for his achievements.

I'm done with this "discussion", you keep straying further and further from the original conversation. Let's try to keep this remotely on topic.

[Duffman100]

I used an objective accolade that I don't agree with. So I'm not allowed to reference it because I don't agree with it? I guess it's time for me to go back and report every post where he's being called an all star.

I am not the determining factor of an AS selection, just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live in reality, I understand these are my opinions.

My opinion is that I don't think he deserved to be an all star. Facts dictate that under Nurse, FVV was selected as an all star. Give it a rest with the gotcha moments, your half assed approach isn't going to get me to say you were right because you have trouble differentiating my opinion from an objective result.

So Nurse gets credit for developing Fred into an All Star but Fred doesn't get the credit for being an All Star.

How can you possibly reconcile this?

Oh nice, now we're discussing who gets entire credit for something that is a collective result.

Nope that's not what we're discussing.

I'm done with this "discussion.

'

Of course you are. It's a real simple question that you seemingly can't answer.

[raptorforlife88]

I mean outside of all of that, I think it's probably fair to point out that FVV had a huge leap in his second year under Casey, and his advanced numbers, efficiency etc. are all pretty similar to what he put up when he had more minutes later under Nurse.

He also finished 3rd in 6MOY voting under Casey so people were aware of the improvements he had made as well and the impact he was starting to have.

[islandboy53]

So Nurse gets credit for developing Fred into an All Star but Fred doesn't get the credit for being an All Star.

How can you possibly reconcile this?

Oh nice, now we're discussing who gets entire credit for something that is a collective result.

Nope that's not what we're discussing.

I'm done with this "discussion.

'

Of course you are. It's a real simple question that you seemingly can't answer.

He’s giving up already? Damn. I was hoping he would give us all a better understanding of “Masai’s failure to provide Nurse with young players worth developing”.

[wherescomegys]

So Ochai. He can really get up, huh?

[Duffman100]

So Ochai. He can really get up, huh?

That block on Kispert was ridiculous.

[LoveMyRaps]

So Ochai. He can really get up, huh?

He's had some very impressive blocks since joining the Raps.

[ForeverTFC]

I've started doing my draft homework and listened to a Veccenie mock draft pod last night. My goodness this sounds like an awful draft - it's one thing to hear that it's bad, it's another when you hear them break down the players. I wonder if folks in this thread bent out of shape over the 1st we gave for Olynyk and Ochai have done any research into how awful the draft really is.

[Duffman100]

I've started doing my draft homework and listened to a Veccenie mock draft pod last night. My goodness this sounds like an awful draft - it's one thing to hear that it's bad, it's another when you hear them break down the players. I wonder if folks in this thread bent out of shape over the 1st we gave for Olynyk and Ochai have done any research into how awful the draft really is.

Curious what we do with the Pacers and Pistons pick if it's that bad.

Draft and stash a really raw young guy?
A full swing for the fences?
Draft a high floor, low ceiling role player?

Could go a lot of ways.

[HiJiNX]

I've started doing my draft homework and listened to a Veccenie mock draft pod last night. My goodness this sounds like an awful draft - it's one thing to hear that it's bad, it's another when you hear them break down the players. I wonder if folks in this thread bent out of shape over the 1st we gave for Olynyk and Ochai have done any research into how awful the draft really is.

Curious what we do with the Pacers and Pistons pick if it's that bad.

Draft and stash a really raw young guy?
A full swing for the fences?
Draft a high floor, low ceiling role player?

Could go a lot of ways.

Big swing imo. Well that’s my general philosophy for drafting anyway haha.

[Drakeem]

In his second ASG selection, Bosh was putting up 22/11/3, and the Raptors were 4th in the east. In his first season, no I don't think he deserved it. Other than that, he was a perennial 20/10 guy essentially his entire tenure here, so I have no real qualms overall.

Scottie, it's a toss up between him and Banchero. But I weigh team performance as the tie breaker when both players are putting up similar numbers/impact, so yeah, he probably didn't either. If not for Randle being injured, he wouldn't have been selected.

Siakam, his first one, absolutely earned. Second one, eh, I could go either way.

So yeah, I agree with your statement.

So again, by your logic Vince didn't deserve to be an all-star in 2003 when we were 24-58, and in 2004 when we were 33-49.

IDK how it was a toss up between Scottie and Banchero when both were all-stars anyways.

Remember - always fact check something Scase says

I mean, Barnes didn't make the initial list if we're being fair. An injury reserve DOES count on your resume, but lets not pretend Scottie wasn't initially included in the all-star roster when coaches chose the best reserves.

[Scase]

So again, by your logic Vince didn't deserve to be an all-star in 2003 when we were 24-58, and in 2004 when we were 33-49.

IDK how it was a toss up between Scottie and Banchero when both were all-stars anyways.

Remember - always fact check something Scase says

I mean, Barnes didn't make the initial list if we're being fair. An injury reserve DOES count on your resume, but lets not pretend Scottie wasn't initially included in the all-star roster when coaches chose the best reserves.

Probably best to ignore him whenever he's commenting on my posts, he follows me around the forums like I stole his girlfriend. To most, being selected as a starter or a reserve by the coaches can be seen as "legitimate", whereas an injury replacement is just that. You weren't "good" enough to be a reserve, so you're here cause someone is hurt.

Doesn't make them a bad player, but it's pretty clear to see the pecking order.

[Scase]

I've started doing my draft homework and listened to a Veccenie mock draft pod last night. My goodness this sounds like an awful draft - it's one thing to hear that it's bad, it's another when you hear them break down the players. I wonder if folks in this thread bent out of shape over the 1st we gave for Olynyk and Ochai have done any research into how awful the draft really is.

Curious what we do with the Pacers and Pistons pick if it's that bad.

Draft and stash a really raw young guy?
A full swing for the fences?
Draft a high floor, low ceiling role player?

Could go a lot of ways.

Big swing imo. Well that’s my general philosophy for drafting anyway haha.

I think if we are going into a "real" rebuild and not a sped up retool, you go for the big swing, high risk/reward player. If we go the retool route, you kinda have to go for the safe pick.

[ForeverTFC]

Curious what we do with the Pacers and Pistons pick if it's that bad.

Draft and stash a really raw young guy?
A full swing for the fences?
Draft a high floor, low ceiling role player?

Could go a lot of ways.

Big swing imo. Well that’s my general philosophy for drafting anyway haha.

I think if we are going into a "real" rebuild and not a sped up retool, you go for the big swing, high risk/reward player. If we go the retool route, you kinda have to go for the safe pick.

That's really the problem, if what they're putting out there is real. There is no real "big swing" to be had in most of this draft. You're "swinging" for a role player.

One thing that caught me off-guard was when they started with pick 1 and said "there is no tier 1 or tier 2 prospect here. There is 6-7 guys at the top and who you pick depends on what you need and how much you like them". Then it just keeps getting worse.

[YogurtProducer]

So again, by your logic Vince didn't deserve to be an all-star in 2003 when we were 24-58, and in 2004 when we were 33-49.

IDK how it was a toss up between Scottie and Banchero when both were all-stars anyways.

Remember - always fact check something Scase says

I mean, Barnes didn't make the initial list if we're being fair. An injury reserve DOES count on your resume, but lets not pretend Scottie wasn't initially included in the all-star roster when coaches chose the best reserves.

That is fair - I thought Paolo was an injury replacement to for some reason, but that was Trae

[WaltFrazier]

I came to see if there's an update on Ochai's injury, and discovered this thread is not really about him at all anymore.