Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai!

[TheGeneral99]

Yeah, lets give Masai the credit for Lowry, Demar, JV, and Ross....oh wait, what's that? Colangelo drafted or traded for all those players?

Maybe you should take a hot minute and read the posts people are responding to instead of off the cuff responses. I was directly commenting on how Nurse was not given players worth developing while he was HC, not that Masai is incapable of finding good players.

You people are so desperate to defend Masai you can't even read, this is hilarious.

Colangelo developed those players?

Last time I checked Colangelo was fired in 2013.

Demar and Lowry made significant improvements yearly under Masai.

Remember that Masai gave up a lot to get Kawhi and Gasol...that included two 1st round picks, Demar, Poeltl, JV and Delon which was amazing in the short-term but impacted us long-term. We didn't have any 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 because of the championship run.

Since the chip Masai has only had 2 lottery picks: Scottie and Gradey. Scottie was arguably the best pick of his draft and Gradey looks promising for a rookie despite a slow start.

His other picks were 59, 29, 59, 46 and 47. Yeah those didn't pan out but 95% of 2nd round picks don't pan out, lol.

Colangelo acquired those players who were worth developing. And again, none of this matters since I was talking about the teams provided to Nurse as a head coach.

Dennis specifically said that Masai and Bobby were unhappy with NURSE not developing players, so I said they never gave him players worth developing. You're just bringing up stuff that is entirely unrelated to the convo you replied to.

Lol what?

You could argue that Colangelo actually almost stifled Demar and Lowry's progression because he brought in Rudy Gay in 2013. That of course was corrected by Masai who bolstered our bench by trading Gay early in the 2013-2014 season, giving the roster some serious depth and allowing Lowry+Demar to shine.

And if you want to go down that rabbit hole...Bargnani wasn't well developed, he dropped PJ Tucker prematurely, and traded away our 1st round picks in 2007 and 2008. Just awful.

Under Colangelo the Raptors were a perennial lottery team, winning 20-30 games a year, getting lottery picks every year. Demar was a good pick, Ed Davis was a meh pick, and JV was a good pick although he missed out on Klay and Kawhi. Anyways, these players didn't really develop under Colangelo, it was under Masai that Demar emerged as an all-star and Lowry as well. JV and Lowry only played 1 season under Colangelo.

[Scase]

Colangelo developed those players?

Last time I checked Colangelo was fired in 2013.

Demar and Lowry made significant improvements yearly under Masai.

Remember that Masai gave up a lot to get Kawhi and Gasol...that included two 1st round picks, Demar, Poeltl, JV and Delon which was amazing in the short-term but impacted us long-term. We didn't have any 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 because of the championship run.

Since the chip Masai has only had 2 lottery picks: Scottie and Gradey. Scottie was arguably the best pick of his draft and Gradey looks promising for a rookie despite a slow start.

His other picks were 59, 29, 59, 46 and 47. Yeah those didn't pan out but 95% of 2nd round picks don't pan out, lol.

Colangelo acquired those players who were worth developing. And again, none of this matters since I was talking about the teams provided to Nurse as a head coach.

Dennis specifically said that Masai and Bobby were unhappy with NURSE not developing players, so I said they never gave him players worth developing. You're just bringing up stuff that is entirely unrelated to the convo you replied to.

Lol what?

You could argue that Colangelo actually almost stifled Demar and Lowry's progression because he brought in Rudy Gay in 2013. That of course was corrected by Masai who bolstered our bench by trading Gay early in the 2013-2014 season, giving the roster some serious depth and allowing Lowry+Demar to shine.

And if you want to go down that rabbit hole...Bargnani wasn't well developed, he dropped PJ Tucker prematurely, and traded away our 1st round picks in 2007 and 2008. Just awful.

Under Colangelo the Raptors were a perennial lottery team, winning 20-30 games a year, getting lottery picks every year. Demar was a good pick, Ed Davis was a meh pick, and JV was a good pick although he missed out on Klay and Kawhi. Anyways, these players didn't really develop under Colangelo, it was under Masai that Demar emerged as an all-star and Lowry as well. JV and Lowry only played 1 season under Colangelo.

You're the only one who does, as I have repeatedly stated.

The discussion at hand, was about the teams and players provided to Nurse in the last couple years as he was the head coach.

Again, just read the posts.

[Thaddy]

He would look better as a 5th option that is the primary perimeter defender. The Dick and Olynyk combo off the bench looks good so far. The bench line up could use a physical player and another combo guard. We can likely find that in the draft, I can see Masai liking Sheppard. In the mid first I liked Hall but he lacks athleticism. I would probably consider Missi or Holmes. We need a great rebounder, finisher, and stretch player.

[Duffman100]

Colangelo acquired those players who were worth developing. And again, none of this matters since I was talking about the teams provided to Nurse as a head coach.

Dennis specifically said that Masai and Bobby were unhappy with NURSE not developing players, so I said they never gave him players worth developing. You're just bringing up stuff that is entirely unrelated to the convo you replied to.

Lol what?

You could argue that Colangelo actually almost stifled Demar and Lowry's progression because he brought in Rudy Gay in 2013. That of course was corrected by Masai who bolstered our bench by trading Gay early in the 2013-2014 season, giving the roster some serious depth and allowing Lowry+Demar to shine.

And if you want to go down that rabbit hole...Bargnani wasn't well developed, he dropped PJ Tucker prematurely, and traded away our 1st round picks in 2007 and 2008. Just awful.

Under Colangelo the Raptors were a perennial lottery team, winning 20-30 games a year, getting lottery picks every year. Demar was a good pick, Ed Davis was a meh pick, and JV was a good pick although he missed out on Klay and Kawhi. Anyways, these players didn't really develop under Colangelo, it was under Masai that Demar emerged as an all-star and Lowry as well. JV and Lowry only played 1 season under Colangelo.

You're the only one who does, as I have repeatedly stated.

The discussion at hand, was about the teams and players provided to Nurse in the last couple years as he was the head coach.

Again, just read the posts.

In another post you talked about how FVV wasn't really a true all-star and feasted on bad teams. But in this sequence you credit Nurse for developing Fred into an all-star.

Just curious which one is it?

[Scase]

Lol what?

You could argue that Colangelo actually almost stifled Demar and Lowry's progression because he brought in Rudy Gay in 2013. That of course was corrected by Masai who bolstered our bench by trading Gay early in the 2013-2014 season, giving the roster some serious depth and allowing Lowry+Demar to shine.

And if you want to go down that rabbit hole...Bargnani wasn't well developed, he dropped PJ Tucker prematurely, and traded away our 1st round picks in 2007 and 2008. Just awful.

Under Colangelo the Raptors were a perennial lottery team, winning 20-30 games a year, getting lottery picks every year. Demar was a good pick, Ed Davis was a meh pick, and JV was a good pick although he missed out on Klay and Kawhi. Anyways, these players didn't really develop under Colangelo, it was under Masai that Demar emerged as an all-star and Lowry as well. JV and Lowry only played 1 season under Colangelo.

You're the only one who does, as I have repeatedly stated.

The discussion at hand, was about the teams and players provided to Nurse in the last couple years as he was the head coach.

Again, just read the posts.

In another post you talked about how FVV wasn't really a true all-star and feasted on bad teams. But in this sequence you credit Nurse for developing Fred into an all-star.

Just curious which one is it?

I said he got an AS selection, that doesn't change my opinion that he didn't deserve it. There are reasons why people use specific words and phrasing in language.

FVV go from undrafted to an all star selection

I do however love how you guys are just staying away from the original comment and convo like it's the plague to try and pick on things that aren't relevant.

[Duffman100]

You're the only one who does, as I have repeatedly stated.

The discussion at hand, was about the teams and players provided to Nurse in the last couple years as he was the head coach.

Again, just read the posts.

In another post you talked about how FVV wasn't really a true all-star and feasted on bad teams. But in this sequence you credit Nurse for developing Fred into an all-star.

Just curious which one is it?

I said he got an AS selection, that doesn't change my opinion that he didn't deserve it. There are reasons why people use specific words and phrasing in language.

FVV go from undrafted to an all star selection

I do however love how you guys are just staying away from the original comment and convo like it's the plague to try and pick on things that aren't relevant.

But then you can't use his all star selection as a way to promote Nurse's development ability.

[Scase]

In another post you talked about how FVV wasn't really a true all-star and feasted on bad teams. But in this sequence you credit Nurse for developing Fred into an all-star.

Just curious which one is it?

I said he got an AS selection, that doesn't change my opinion that he didn't deserve it. There are reasons why people use specific words and phrasing in language.

FVV go from undrafted to an all star selection

I do however love how you guys are just staying away from the original comment and convo like it's the plague to try and pick on things that aren't relevant.

But then you can't use his all star selection as a way to promote Nurse's development ability.

Alright Mr.Pedantic.

Here :

FVV go from undrafted to a starting guard averaging 20/7/4

Feel better now?

[Duffman100]

I said he got an AS selection, that doesn't change my opinion that he didn't deserve it. There are reasons why people use specific words and phrasing in language.



I do however love how you guys are just staying away from the original comment and convo like it's the plague to try and pick on things that aren't relevant.

But then you can't use his all star selection as a way to promote Nurse's development ability.

Alright Mr.Pedantic.

Here :

FVV go from undrafted to a starting guard averaging 20/7/4

Feel better now?

As usual, pointing you talking out of both sides of your mouth, depending on what narrative you want to push, is “pedantic”.

[Scase]

But then you can't use his all star selection as a way to promote Nurse's development ability.

Alright Mr.Pedantic.

Here :

FVV go from undrafted to a starting guard averaging 20/7/4

Feel better now?

As usual, pointing you talking out of both sides of your mouth, depending on what narrative you want to push, is “pedantic”.

Yep you caught me, talking out of 2 sides of my mouth after I completely and openly state I don't think he deserved an AS selection, but apparently stating the fact that he was an AS, means it's double speak. You got me there Nancy Drew, what's on the docket for your next mystery?

[ForeverTFC]

I'm sorry, but if you're taking the position that Fred didn't deserve an all-star selection, then the majority of the Raptors post Bosh, including Scottie, didn't deserve their selection either.

[YogurtProducer]

Yeah, lets give Masai the credit for Lowry, Demar, JV, and Ross....oh wait, what's that? Colangelo drafted or traded for all those players?

Maybe you should take a hot minute and read the posts people are responding to instead of off the cuff responses. I was directly commenting on how Nurse was not given players worth developing while he was HC, not that Masai is incapable of finding good players.

You people are so desperate to defend Masai you can't even read, this is hilarious.

Colangelo developed those players?

Last time I checked Colangelo was fired in 2013.

Demar and Lowry made significant improvements yearly under Masai.

Remember that Masai gave up a lot to get Kawhi and Gasol...that included two 1st round picks, Demar, Poeltl, JV and Delon which was amazing in the short-term but impacted us long-term. We didn't have any 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 because of the championship run.

Since the chip Masai has only had 2 lottery picks: Scottie and Gradey. Scottie was arguably the best pick of his draft and Gradey looks promising for a rookie despite a slow start.

His other picks were 59, 29, 59, 46 and 47. Yeah those didn't pan out but 95% of 2nd round picks don't pan out, lol.

Colangelo acquired those players who were worth developing. And again, none of this matters since I was talking about the teams provided to Nurse as a head coach.

Dennis specifically said that Masai and Bobby were unhappy with NURSE not developing players, so I said they never gave him players worth developing. You're just bringing up stuff that is entirely unrelated to the convo you replied to.

Nurse was provided notable younger players like:

Siakam
Anunoby
FVV
Powell
Barnes
Trent Jr
Koloko
Flynn
Precious

You act like Nurse was given nothing

After the championship run we cycled through guys like

Davis (not his fault)
Brissett
Flynn (did not improve)
Precious (did not improve)
Banton
Johnson

etc.

So I mean it kind of is true... most of the guys (outside those already established before Nurses arrival) did not develop really at all.

I like Nurse but he certainly is more of a vet team coach than a development one

[Duffman100]

Alright Mr.Pedantic.

Here :



Feel better now?

As usual, pointing you talking out of both sides of your mouth, depending on what narrative you want to push, is “pedantic”.

Yep you caught me, talking out of 2 sides of my mouth after I completely and openly state I don't think he deserved an AS selection, but apparently stating the fact that he was an AS, means it's double speak. You got me there Nancy Drew, what's on the docket for your next mystery?

Nope you saying he didn't deserve to be an allstar but then using his all star status to boost a different argument is talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's actually quite simple and straightforward.

But you're never wrong, so we'll just move on.

[YogurtProducer]

Alright Mr.Pedantic.

Here :



Feel better now?

As usual, pointing you talking out of both sides of your mouth, depending on what narrative you want to push, is “pedantic”.

Yep you caught me, talking out of 2 sides of my mouth after I completely and openly state I don't think he deserved an AS selection, but apparently stating the fact that he was an AS, means it's double speak. You got me there Nancy Drew, what's on the docket for your next mystery?

Problem is you use his AS selection to help you narrative when it suits you. When it doesn't, you ignore that if happened and mock it.

You seem to forget you have a username and people remember what you post (not that it is hard - you post the same 3 talking points over and over )

[YogurtProducer]

So let me get this straight...

Nurse gets credit for turning OG into a DPOY candidate (8 votes for DPOY and no 1st place votes in reality), FVV into an all-star, Siakam into an all-nba, and Scottie into ROTY... But Masai gets no credit for the development of Lowry or Demar.

So if Colangelo gets the credit for Lowry and Demar, should we not give the credit for FVV/OG/Pascal to Dwane Casey instead?

Funny how quickly this argument falls apart.

[Scase]

I'm sorry, but if you're taking the position that Fred didn't deserve an all-star selection, then the majority of the Raptors post Bosh, including Scottie, didn't deserve their selection either.

In his second ASG selection, Bosh was putting up 22/11/3, and the Raptors were 4th in the east. In his first season, no I don't think he deserved it. Other than that, he was a perennial 20/10 guy essentially his entire tenure here, so I have no real qualms overall.

Scottie, it's a toss up between him and Banchero. But I weigh team performance as the tie breaker when both players are putting up similar numbers/impact, so yeah, he probably didn't either. If not for Randle being injured, he wouldn't have been selected.

Siakam, his first one, absolutely earned. Second one, eh, I could go either way.

So yeah, I agree with your statement.

[TheGeneral99]

I'm sorry, but if you're taking the position that Fred didn't deserve an all-star selection, then the majority of the Raptors post Bosh, including Scottie, didn't deserve their selection either.

In his second ASG selection, Bosh was putting up 22/11/3, and the Raptors were 4th in the east. In his first season, no I don't think he deserved it. Other than that, he was a perennial 20/10 guy essentially his entire tenure here, so I have no real qualms overall.

Scottie, it's a toss up between him and Banchero. But I weigh team performance as the tie breaker when both players are putting up similar numbers/impact, so yeah, he probably didn't either. If not for Randle being injured, he wouldn't have been selected.

Siakam, his first one, absolutely earned. Second one, eh, I could go either way.

So yeah, I agree with your statement.

So again, by your logic Vince didn't deserve to be an all-star in 2003 when we were 24-58, in 2004 when we were 33-49, and a toss up in 2002 when we finished 42-40 (actually went on a 14 game winning streak without him).

Also Bosh didn't deserve to be an all-star in 2008, 2009 and 2010.

When Fred was an all-star we finished 48-34 with the 5th seed in the East, so an all-star by your definition.

[YogurtProducer]

I'm sorry, but if you're taking the position that Fred didn't deserve an all-star selection, then the majority of the Raptors post Bosh, including Scottie, didn't deserve their selection either.

In his second ASG selection, Bosh was putting up 22/11/3, and the Raptors were 4th in the east. In his first season, no I don't think he deserved it. Other than that, he was a perennial 20/10 guy essentially his entire tenure here, so I have no real qualms overall.

Scottie, it's a toss up between him and Banchero. But I weigh team performance as the tie breaker when both players are putting up similar numbers/impact, so yeah, he probably didn't either. If not for Randle being injured, he wouldn't have been selected.

Siakam, his first one, absolutely earned. Second one, eh, I could go either way.

So yeah, I agree with your statement.

So again, by your logic Vince didn't deserve to be an all-star in 2003 when we were 24-58, and in 2004 when we were 33-49.

IDK how it was a toss up between Scottie and Banchero when both were all-stars anyways.

Remember - always fact check something Scase says

[ForeverTFC]

I'm sorry, but if you're taking the position that Fred didn't deserve an all-star selection, then the majority of the Raptors post Bosh, including Scottie, didn't deserve their selection either.

In his second ASG selection, Bosh was putting up 22/11/3, and the Raptors were 4th in the east. In his first season, no I don't think he deserved it. Other than that, he was a perennial 20/10 guy essentially his entire tenure here, so I have no real qualms overall.

Scottie, it's a toss up between him and Banchero. But I weigh team performance as the tie breaker when both players are putting up similar numbers/impact, so yeah, he probably didn't either. If not for Randle being injured, he wouldn't have been selected.

Siakam, his first one, absolutely earned. Second one, eh, I could go either way.

So yeah, I agree with your statement.

Bosh definitely deserved it, that's why I said Post Bosh selections. But overall, I disagree with you that they didn't deserve it. They didn't deserve to be starters or locks, sure. But they were all playing at the same level as the bottom 3rd quartile of any All-star pool. Just because they're not top half all-stars doesn't mean they didn't deserve it.

[Scase]

As usual, pointing you talking out of both sides of your mouth, depending on what narrative you want to push, is “pedantic”.

Yep you caught me, talking out of 2 sides of my mouth after I completely and openly state I don't think he deserved an AS selection, but apparently stating the fact that he was an AS, means it's double speak. You got me there Nancy Drew, what's on the docket for your next mystery?

Nope you saying he didn't deserve to be an allstar but then using his all star status to boost a different argument is talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's actually quite simple and straightforward.

But you're never wrong, so we'll just move on.

I used his AS status as an objective achievement/career milestone that he attained, regardless of my feelings towards him as a player, it happened.

And again, you asked if I still felt he was undeserving, I said yes. Hardly double speak, more like your inability to disassociate from other conversations from months prior that are unrelated. I will happily admit when I am wrong, hell, I admitted as such this morning about the Suggs pick.

Just because you and the other cheerleaders love to nitpick and pounce on my posts the absolute second there is a ray of sunlight for you to go "BUT ACKHTUALLY", doesn't mean I have the inability to admit fault.

I've clarified multiple times what exactly I meant when I said it, so maybe I was WRONG in how I worded it. But now that, that has been resolved and cleared up, you like to keep picking away. You do you I guess.

[Duffman100]

Fred's pre all star numbers were legit all star calibre numbers. But the argument is that he didn't face the competition necessary?

Are we applying that analysis to every all star that made it that year?