Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai!

[Scase]

Ochai was a part of Utah's rotation last year, averaging 20 mpg, scoring 8 points on decent shooting, including 35% from 3, and solid defence. He was doing essentially the same this year on slightly lower 3 point shooting at the time of the trade. Obviously, getting a 1st back for Olynyk's expiring required sending back one of their many young prospects, including 2023 1st round picks George, Hendricks & Sensabaugh. George and Hendricks are arguably better prospects than Ochai, and Utah wasn't giving them up. Doesn't mean they didn't value him.

Ochai is a part of Toronto's rotation in the near term. His shooting should return to at least his Utah levels - good on corner 3's, not so much ATB - and he will continue to be part of the rotation as the team grows from rebuilding team with potential to good team.

Ochai as recently as early Feb last year, was considered "untouchable" by the Jazz FO. Not even a year later and he's being traded for essentially scraps, that should say something. Ainge loves his draft picks, but he's also a rather good judge of talent/potential.

This holds a fair amount of weight in my assessment.

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

Some Raps fans wanted to give Flynn more time too, so not sure I'd put too much stock in that As for the bolded, that's my stance as well. We have 3 potential picks coming this year, and I personally don't see Ochai being worth spending tons of minutes and development resources on vs a rookie.

I'm not writing him off entirely, I just don't get the infatuation some people have with him as he's really shown nothing to warrant it, apart from some above average defence.

[Tripod]

Ochai as recently as early Feb last year, was considered "untouchable" by the Jazz FO. Not even a year later and he's being traded for essentially scraps, that should say something. Ainge loves his draft picks, but he's also a rather good judge of talent/potential.

This holds a fair amount of weight in my assessment.

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

Some Raps fans wanted to give Flynn more time too, so not sure I'd put too much stock in that As for the bolded, that's my stance as well. We have 3 potential picks coming this year, and I personally don't see Ochai being worth spending tons of minutes and development resources on vs a rookie.

I'm not writing him off entirely, I just don't get the infatuation some people have with him as he's really shown nothing to warrant it, apart from some above average defence.

But if he was an above average scorer with no defense, would you feel be same way?

As I said, he fits a need....a very good POA defender on guards.

In the end, we can go back and forth forever as there are tons of unknowns...like how his shot develops, what picks we get this year, what those guy do at camp, what trade possibilities we have or do.

It will all work itself out over time.

[LoveMyRaps]

He's excellent at cutting to the rim.
Very athletic.
Good passer.
Great defender.

Lots to like.

Next step is to get that 3pt % up to about 35-40%.

He's gonna be a nice little swiss army knife for us for years to come.

[Scase]

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

Some Raps fans wanted to give Flynn more time too, so not sure I'd put too much stock in that As for the bolded, that's my stance as well. We have 3 potential picks coming this year, and I personally don't see Ochai being worth spending tons of minutes and development resources on vs a rookie.

I'm not writing him off entirely, I just don't get the infatuation some people have with him as he's really shown nothing to warrant it, apart from some above average defence.

But if he was an above average scorer with no defense, would you feel be same way?

As I said, he fits a need....a very good POA defender on guards.

In the end, we can go back and forth forever as there are tons of unknowns...like how his shot develops, what picks we get this year, what those guy do at camp, what trade possibilities we have or do.

It will all work itself out over time.

Yes, GTJ is awful and shouldn't be on this team next year lol. I've been clamouring for less minutes for him and more for Gradey (pre injuries), I have never been a fan of GTJ. He's just as bad of a prospect, cept I'd argue his offence is better than Ochais defence.

[LoveMyRaps]

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[Dennis 37]

Ochai as recently as early Feb last year, was considered "untouchable" by the Jazz FO. Not even a year later and he's being traded for essentially scraps, that should say something. Ainge loves his draft picks, but he's also a rather good judge of talent/potential.

This holds a fair amount of weight in my assessment.

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

Some Raps fans wanted to give Flynn more time too, so not sure I'd put too much stock in that As for the bolded, that's my stance as well. We have 3 potential picks coming this year, and I personally don't see Ochai being worth spending tons of minutes and development resources on vs a rookie.

I'm not writing him off entirely, I just don't get the infatuation some people have with him as he's really shown nothing to warrant it, apart from some above average defence.

We wanted to give Flynn enough consistent run to determine if he is at all worth keeping. Nurse had such a short leash one could not tell how low the ceiling, or how high the floor, actually was.

Ochai is better than the picks we haven't yet picked. After we have picked those picks, then let us see where he falls.

[Scase]

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

Some Raps fans wanted to give Flynn more time too, so not sure I'd put too much stock in that As for the bolded, that's my stance as well. We have 3 potential picks coming this year, and I personally don't see Ochai being worth spending tons of minutes and development resources on vs a rookie.

I'm not writing him off entirely, I just don't get the infatuation some people have with him as he's really shown nothing to warrant it, apart from some above average defence.

We wanted to give Flynn enough consistent run to determine if he is at all worth keeping. Nurse had such a short leash one could not tell how low the ceiling, or how high the floor, actually was.

Ochai is better than the picks we haven't yet picked. After we have picked those picks, then let us see where he falls.

Or maybe, the championship coach that sees Flynn day in day out, understands that he isn't very good and doesn't deserve consistent minutes. The same Flynn that can't even match the minutes he got on the Raps, while playing for the Pistons, the literal worst team in the league. Nah, I'm sure that means nothing, he just needed more time in the oven.

[Dennis 37]

Some Raps fans wanted to give Flynn more time too, so not sure I'd put too much stock in that As for the bolded, that's my stance as well. We have 3 potential picks coming this year, and I personally don't see Ochai being worth spending tons of minutes and development resources on vs a rookie.

I'm not writing him off entirely, I just don't get the infatuation some people have with him as he's really shown nothing to warrant it, apart from some above average defence.

We wanted to give Flynn enough consistent run to determine if he is at all worth keeping. Nurse had such a short leash one could not tell how low the ceiling, or how high the floor, actually was.

Ochai is better than the picks we haven't yet picked. After we have picked those picks, then let us see where he falls.

Or maybe, the championship coach that sees Flynn day in day out, understands that he isn't very good and doesn't deserve consistent minutes. The same Flynn that can't even match the minutes he got on the Raps, while playing for the Pistons, the literal worst team in the league. Nah, I'm sure that means nothing, he just needed more time in the oven.

Masai and/or Bobby had commented on the limited development under Nurse. Do you not think if they had seen enough they wouldn't have gone with Dowtin Jr., who is no star, but showed better than Malachi?

Nurse had no interest in development.

[Dennis 37]

He's excellent at cutting to the rim.
Very athletic.
Good passer.
Great defender.

Lots to like.

Next step is to get that 3pt % up to about 35-40%.

He's gonna be a nice little swiss army knife for us for years to come.

This summer will be big for him. He has to come back with at least an adequate 3 point percentage.

[LoveMyRaps]

He's excellent at cutting to the rim.
Very athletic.
Good passer.
Great defender.

Lots to like.

Next step is to get that 3pt % up to about 35-40%.

He's gonna be a nice little swiss army knife for us for years to come.

This summer will be big for him. He has to come back with at least an adequate 3 point percentage.

Agreed. It'll be the difference between him getting 30mpg or 15mpg.

[Scase]

We wanted to give Flynn enough consistent run to determine if he is at all worth keeping. Nurse had such a short leash one could not tell how low the ceiling, or how high the floor, actually was.

Ochai is better than the picks we haven't yet picked. After we have picked those picks, then let us see where he falls.

Or maybe, the championship coach that sees Flynn day in day out, understands that he isn't very good and doesn't deserve consistent minutes. The same Flynn that can't even match the minutes he got on the Raps, while playing for the Pistons, the literal worst team in the league. Nah, I'm sure that means nothing, he just needed more time in the oven.

Masai and/or Bobby had commented on the limited development under Nurse. Do you not think if they had seen enough they wouldn't have gone with Dowtin Jr., who is no star, but showed better than Malachi?

Nurse had no interest in development.

Masai and Bobby provided no one worth developing. While Nurse has been here, we've seen OG turn into a DPOTY level player, FVV go from undrafted to an all star selection, Siakam get 2 all NBAs/AS selections, and Scottie won ROTY. I think his development is fine.

But when you give him mediocre trash like Flynn and so on, there is only so much you can do. Your argument about Downtin is pointless, neither him nor Flynn are on the team. Our FO likes to throw **** at the wall to see what sticks when it comes to these random 3rd stringer players.

[TheGeneral99]

Ochai as recently as early Feb last year, was considered "untouchable" by the Jazz FO. Not even a year later and he's being traded for essentially scraps, that should say something. Ainge loves his draft picks, but he's also a rather good judge of talent/potential.

This holds a fair amount of weight in my assessment.

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

It is a hilariously bad take to act like Ainge's player evaluations should be taken as gospel but ignore Masais.

Some people on this board have legit convinced themselves Masai cannot evaluate talent. It is mind blowing.

Some posters here expect that unless a GM hits on 90% of its draft picks and prospects they are failures.

They don't acknowledge the for every team the majority of 2nd round picks and prospects fail. That's just the nature of the league.

I mean do these posters forget how many players were in and out during the golden era?

Guys like Bruno, Bebe, Stiemesa, Thompson, Miller, Hayes, Mckinnie, Richardson, Brown, Moreland, Loyd, Hernandez, Thomas, Ponds etc.

Despite the drop after the 2020, Masai's batting average overall is better than majority of GMs in this league.

[YogurtProducer]

When seeing what Jazz fans thought of the deal, hardly any were down on Ochai. They just thought there were only so many minutes and the younger guys needed those minutes.

And it's fine you think highly of Ainge, but it's not like Masai is a buffoon.

In the end, we have to wait to see how he develops. Let's see if an offseason with our development guys helps him take the next step.

It is a hilariously bad take to act like Ainge's player evaluations should be taken as gospel but ignore Masais.

Some people on this board have legit convinced themselves Masai cannot evaluate talent. It is mind blowing.

Some posters here expect that unless a GM hits on 90% of its draft picks and prospects they are failures.

They don't acknowledge the for every team the majority of 2nd round picks and prospects fail. That's just the nature of the league.

I mean do these posters forget how many players were in and out during the golden era?

Guys like Bruno, Bebe, Stiemesa, Thompson, Miller, Hayes, Mckinnie, Richardson, Brown, Moreland, Loyd, Hernandez, Thomas, Ponds etc.

Despite the drop after the 2020, Masai's batting average overall is better than majority of GMs in this league.

The post immedietely above you..

Masai and Bobby provided no one worth developing.

Of course, only if you ignore all the players they did provide

[TheGeneral99]

It is a hilariously bad take to act like Ainge's player evaluations should be taken as gospel but ignore Masais.

Some people on this board have legit convinced themselves Masai cannot evaluate talent. It is mind blowing.

Some posters here expect that unless a GM hits on 90% of its draft picks and prospects they are failures.

They don't acknowledge the for every team the majority of 2nd round picks and prospects fail. That's just the nature of the league.

I mean do these posters forget how many players were in and out during the golden era?

Guys like Bruno, Bebe, Stiemesa, Thompson, Miller, Hayes, Mckinnie, Richardson, Brown, Moreland, Loyd, Hernandez, Thomas, Ponds etc.

Despite the drop after the 2020, Masai's batting average overall is better than majority of GMs in this league.

The post immedietely above you..

Masai and Bobby provided no one worth developing.

Of course, only if you ignore all the players they did provide

Yep.

I mean the development of Lowry, Demar, Valanciunas, Ross, Fred, Siakam, OG, Delon, Powell, Boucher, Scottie - these are all huge success stories and many of these guys were late draft picks or undrafted.

Obviously, the success of players hasn't been as strong after 2020, but Scottie was a huge selection and Dick looks like a promising rotational player so far.

[Los_29]

Some posters here expect that unless a GM hits on 90% of its draft picks and prospects they are failures.

They don't acknowledge the for every team the majority of 2nd round picks and prospects fail. That's just the nature of the league.

I mean do these posters forget how many players were in and out during the golden era?

Guys like Bruno, Bebe, Stiemesa, Thompson, Miller, Hayes, Mckinnie, Richardson, Brown, Moreland, Loyd, Hernandez, Thomas, Ponds etc.

Despite the drop after the 2020, Masai's batting average overall is better than majority of GMs in this league.

The post immedietely above you..

Masai and Bobby provided no one worth developing.

Of course, only if you ignore all the players they did provide

Yep.

I mean the development of Lowry, Demar, Valanciunas, Ross, Fred, Siakam, OG, Delon, Powell, Boucher, Scottie - these are all huge success stories and many of these guys were late draft picks or undrafted.

Obviously, the success of players hasn't been as strong after 2020, but Scottie was a huge selection and Dick looks like a promising rotational player so far.

We also just haven’t had the picks because we unloaded some of them to go for the championship. Flynn was a mistake but he was also the 29th pick. He hit a home run with Scottie and Gradey looks like a good value pick at 13. Hopefully now with more picks he can hit on some more.

We were just very spoiled because this FO was hitting on everything for like 4 years. No other team has our kind of expectations for late 1st and 2nd round picks.

[Scase]

Some posters here expect that unless a GM hits on 90% of its draft picks and prospects they are failures.

They don't acknowledge the for every team the majority of 2nd round picks and prospects fail. That's just the nature of the league.

I mean do these posters forget how many players were in and out during the golden era?

Guys like Bruno, Bebe, Stiemesa, Thompson, Miller, Hayes, Mckinnie, Richardson, Brown, Moreland, Loyd, Hernandez, Thomas, Ponds etc.

Despite the drop after the 2020, Masai's batting average overall is better than majority of GMs in this league.

The post immedietely above you..

Masai and Bobby provided no one worth developing.

Of course, only if you ignore all the players they did provide

Yep.

I mean the development of Lowry, Demar, Valanciunas, Ross, Fred, Siakam, OG, Delon, Powell, Boucher, Scottie - these are all huge success stories and many of these guys were late draft picks or undrafted.

Obviously, the success of players hasn't been as strong after 2020, but Scottie was a huge selection and Dick looks like a promising rotational player so far.

Yeah, lets give Masai the credit for Lowry, Demar, JV, and Ross....oh wait, what's that? Colangelo drafted or traded for all those players?

Maybe you should take a hot minute and read the posts people are responding to instead of off the cuff responses. I was directly commenting on how Nurse was not given players worth developing while he was HC, not that Masai is incapable of finding good players.

You people are so desperate to defend Masai you can't even read, this is hilarious.

[raptorforlife88]

This was literally the best drafting team in the league during the Masai years through the championship season. No one hit on as many late picks like Siakam, OG, Norm, Delon while also getting undrafted guys like FVV. That entire section of time the Raptors significantly outperformed every other team on picks by value. There's been plenty of analysis on this.

We've only had 7 picks and 3 first rounders since then. One of those picks is Scottie who is obviously a HR of a pick especially when the consensus was that it was a four player draft and Scottie was not one of those guys and is now either the first or second best player from that draft. One is Gradey who looks perfectly solid for a 13th pick and could be better depending on his development. And one is Flynn who was a miss but also the 29th pick which misses more often than not anyways.

You can say that he should have hit on one of those second round picks cause that's probably a reasonable rate and that's fair. I think Koloko certainly would have been given his defensive impact numbers, and it's unfortunate things didn't turn out health wise for him.

I don't think you can reasonably critique Masai's drafting record. Makes no sense given the track record.

What you can absolutely critique his ability in recent years to make decent end of bench depth signings. We have not hit on many of those guys since Boucher, it's been a long time and it had the effect of making all our lineups that weren't just the starters be mediocre to terrible.

[YogurtProducer]

The post immedietely above you..
Of course, only if you ignore all the players they did provide

Yep.

I mean the development of Lowry, Demar, Valanciunas, Ross, Fred, Siakam, OG, Delon, Powell, Boucher, Scottie - these are all huge success stories and many of these guys were late draft picks or undrafted.

Obviously, the success of players hasn't been as strong after 2020, but Scottie was a huge selection and Dick looks like a promising rotational player so far.

Yeah, lets give Masai the credit for Lowry, Demar, JV, and Ross....oh wait, what's that? Colangelo drafted or traded for all those players?

Maybe you should take a hot minute and read the posts people are responding to instead of off the cuff responses. I was directly commenting on how Nurse was not given players worth developing while he was HC, not that Masai is incapable of finding good players.

You people are so desperate to defend Masai you can't even read, this is hilarious.

I thought we were talking development (or are you shifting the goalposts again)?

It is undeniable Lowry, Demar, and JV developed significantly while Masai was leading the team (Ross... eh).

[TheGeneral99]

The post immedietely above you..
Of course, only if you ignore all the players they did provide

Yep.

I mean the development of Lowry, Demar, Valanciunas, Ross, Fred, Siakam, OG, Delon, Powell, Boucher, Scottie - these are all huge success stories and many of these guys were late draft picks or undrafted.

Obviously, the success of players hasn't been as strong after 2020, but Scottie was a huge selection and Dick looks like a promising rotational player so far.

Yeah, lets give Masai the credit for Lowry, Demar, JV, and Ross....oh wait, what's that? Colangelo drafted or traded for all those players?

Maybe you should take a hot minute and read the posts people are responding to instead of off the cuff responses. I was directly commenting on how Nurse was not given players worth developing while he was HC, not that Masai is incapable of finding good players.

You people are so desperate to defend Masai you can't even read, this is hilarious.

Colangelo developed those players?

Last time I checked Colangelo was fired in 2013. You could make the argument that Colangelo briefly stifled Demar and Kyle's progression by bringing in Rudy Gay, which Masai corrected in an amazing trade the next season, which ushered the golden era of Raptors ball.

Demar and Lowry made significant improvements yearly under Masai.

Remember that Masai gave up a lot to get Kawhi and Gasol...that included two 1st round picks, Demar, Poeltl, JV and Delon which was amazing in the short-term but impacted us long-term. We didn't have any 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 because of the championship run.

Since the chip Masai has only had 2 lottery picks: Scottie and Gradey. Scottie was arguably the best pick of his draft and Gradey looks promising for a rookie despite a slow start.

His other picks were 59, 29, 59, 46 and 47. Yeah those didn't pan out but 95% of 2nd round picks don't pan out, lol.

[Scase]

Yep.

I mean the development of Lowry, Demar, Valanciunas, Ross, Fred, Siakam, OG, Delon, Powell, Boucher, Scottie - these are all huge success stories and many of these guys were late draft picks or undrafted.

Obviously, the success of players hasn't been as strong after 2020, but Scottie was a huge selection and Dick looks like a promising rotational player so far.

Yeah, lets give Masai the credit for Lowry, Demar, JV, and Ross....oh wait, what's that? Colangelo drafted or traded for all those players?

Maybe you should take a hot minute and read the posts people are responding to instead of off the cuff responses. I was directly commenting on how Nurse was not given players worth developing while he was HC, not that Masai is incapable of finding good players.

You people are so desperate to defend Masai you can't even read, this is hilarious.

Colangelo developed those players?

Last time I checked Colangelo was fired in 2013.

Demar and Lowry made significant improvements yearly under Masai.

Remember that Masai gave up a lot to get Kawhi and Gasol...that included two 1st round picks, Demar, Poeltl, JV and Delon which was amazing in the short-term but impacted us long-term. We didn't have any 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 because of the championship run.

Since the chip Masai has only had 2 lottery picks: Scottie and Gradey. Scottie was arguably the best pick of his draft and Gradey looks promising for a rookie despite a slow start.

His other picks were 59, 29, 59, 46 and 47. Yeah those didn't pan out but 95% of 2nd round picks don't pan out, lol.

Colangelo acquired those players who were worth developing. And again, none of this matters since I was talking about the teams provided to Nurse as a head coach.

Dennis specifically said that Masai and Bobby were unhappy with NURSE not developing players, so I said they never gave him players worth developing. You're just bringing up stuff that is entirely unrelated to the convo you replied to.