Head Coach isn't it

[ConSarnit]

While I agree thus far the sample size isn't big, he's taken 196 career 3's, 154 of them outside of the right corner. He has shot 27% on those. Based on his current NBA production, he is statistically a terrible 3pt shooter outside of a single area on the entire court.

I hadn't previously looked at player shooting stats on nba.com from this perspective. A review of Ochai's numbers with both Toronto and Utah is interesting.

Last year with the Jazz, he shot 39.5% on 38 left corner 3's, 50% on 58 right corner 3's and 27.7% on 130 from ATB.
This year with the Jazz, he shot 36.1% on 36 left corner 3's, 50% on 30 right corner 3's, and 25% on 76 from ATB.
This year with the Raps, he shot 41.7% on 12 left corner 3's, 21.4% on 14 right corner 3's and 16.7% on 30 from ATB.

So, if we leave out the Toronto sample, which is small and doubtless skewed by his change to a new system and new responsibilities, we can see that Ochai shoots adequately from the left corner, quite well from the right corner, and poorly above the break. Lots of room to improve, but that's to be expected from a 2nd year player.

I bundled his Utah/Raps attempts together, and he's shooting markedly below league average. Also I think you might be mixing up the left/right, either that or I am lol.

His bad corner he is shooting 36% on the year, with league average from there being 39%. I'm not going to say by any stretch that this is definitively who he is as a player for the rest of his career, but 200 shots can't be ignored, and it's a pattern across 2 seasons. I would agree with your defence of "second year player" if he were not about to turn 24 and had 4 years of college under his belt. Those players are expected to be much more NBA ready than he is.

To come to Agbaji's defense (not that I think he is a world beater) but there has to be some consideration as to who Agbaji is playing with. He's not a guy who should be counted on to create his own shot but he's not playing with anyone (maybe Olynyk?) who can get him clean looks. Here are the top 7 assist combinations for Agbaji (players who have assisted Agbaji the most):

keyonte george
olynyk
sexton
tht
dunn
dick
markkanen

Who in that list is creating good shots for other players? Let's look at his playing time with guys who can actually get other players a "good shot"

Conley (2023): Agbaji only played 13% of his minutes with Conley

Barnes: 18% of his minutes

Quickley: 46% of his minutes

The majority of the time he's on the floor Ochai is not playing with a real pg or wing shot creator. Agbaji is far from a perfect but he's not getting put into optimal situations, at least as far as guys getting him easy shots goes. Part of it is Agbaji being very limited as an offensive player but he's not getting a lot of help. As a comparison, OG played 70%+ of his minutes with FVV last year. I'm not saying Agbaji deserves to play with starters but having someone getting him better shots couldn't hurt.

Is Agbaji going to make it? I don't know. But I don't know how much we can take away from his time here given the offensive ecosystem (or lack thereof) he has been in since he arrived.

[islandboy53]

While I agree thus far the sample size isn't big, he's taken 196 career 3's, 154 of them outside of the right corner. He has shot 27% on those. Based on his current NBA production, he is statistically a terrible 3pt shooter outside of a single area on the entire court.

I hadn't previously looked at player shooting stats on nba.com from this perspective. A review of Ochai's numbers with both Toronto and Utah is interesting.

Last year with the Jazz, he shot 39.5% on 38 left corner 3's, 50% on 58 right corner 3's and 27.7% on 130 from ATB.
This year with the Jazz, he shot 36.1% on 36 left corner 3's, 50% on 30 right corner 3's, and 25% on 76 from ATB.
This year with the Raps, he shot 41.7% on 12 left corner 3's, 21.4% on 14 right corner 3's and 16.7% on 30 from ATB.

So, if we leave out the Toronto sample, which is small and doubtless skewed by his change to a new system and new responsibilities, we can see that Ochai shoots adequately from the left corner, quite well from the right corner, and poorly above the break. Lots of room to improve, but that's to be expected from a 2nd year player.

I bundled his Utah/Raps attempts together, and he's shooting markedly below league average. Also I think you might be mixing up the left/right, either that or I am lol.

His bad corner he is shooting 36% on the year, with league average from there being 39%. I'm not going to say by any stretch that this is definitively who he is as a player for the rest of his career, but 200 shots can't be ignored, and it's a pattern across 2 seasons. I would agree with your defence of "second year player" if he were not about to turn 24 and had 4 years of college under his belt. Those players are expected to be much more NBA ready than he is.

This year, including in Toronto, he's shooting 37.5% from the left corner on 48 attempts, and 41% from the right corner on 44 attempts. For his almost 2 years in total, he's shooting 38.4% on 86 shots from the left and 46.1% on 102 shots from the right. Assuming your 39% is an accurate value for league average, he's just below on the left side, above on the right, and above overall from the corners at 42.5%. His above the break numbers (25.4% on 236 shots) drags his overall % down to 33% on 424 shots, or just over 3 a game.

If you're trying to define his future shooting based on his struggles in his short stint in Toronto, I think you're making a major mistake. His pattern across 2 seasons is a better than average corner shooter who struggles above the break. I think he can, and will, be better. As to him not being "NBA ready" enough based on being a 4 year college guy, he's doing just fine on defence and corner 3's, which gives him a solid floor. We'll see how he continues to develop, but it seems highly likely that he'll continue to progress.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Darko getting the axe?

[islandboy53]

Darko getting the axe?

[Chandan]

Would have rather had Ime Udoka to try and lead SB, DS, OGA, PS and JP to see if he could have gotten them to play as a playoff team knowing the $$$$$. Would have been crazy.

Still would like him over Darko for getting most out of next few years.

Beggars can't be choosers. Ime took a look at the core Masai was building for years and noped out of the job application.

[Scase]

I hadn't previously looked at player shooting stats on nba.com from this perspective. A review of Ochai's numbers with both Toronto and Utah is interesting.

Last year with the Jazz, he shot 39.5% on 38 left corner 3's, 50% on 58 right corner 3's and 27.7% on 130 from ATB.
This year with the Jazz, he shot 36.1% on 36 left corner 3's, 50% on 30 right corner 3's, and 25% on 76 from ATB.
This year with the Raps, he shot 41.7% on 12 left corner 3's, 21.4% on 14 right corner 3's and 16.7% on 30 from ATB.

So, if we leave out the Toronto sample, which is small and doubtless skewed by his change to a new system and new responsibilities, we can see that Ochai shoots adequately from the left corner, quite well from the right corner, and poorly above the break. Lots of room to improve, but that's to be expected from a 2nd year player.

I bundled his Utah/Raps attempts together, and he's shooting markedly below league average. Also I think you might be mixing up the left/right, either that or I am lol.

His bad corner he is shooting 36% on the year, with league average from there being 39%. I'm not going to say by any stretch that this is definitively who he is as a player for the rest of his career, but 200 shots can't be ignored, and it's a pattern across 2 seasons. I would agree with your defence of "second year player" if he were not about to turn 24 and had 4 years of college under his belt. Those players are expected to be much more NBA ready than he is.

To come to Agbaji's defense (not that I think he is a world beater) but there has to be some consideration as to who Agbaji is playing with. He's not a guy who should be counted on to create his own shot but he's not playing with anyone (maybe Olynyk?) who can get him clean looks. Here are the top 7 assist combinations for Agbaji (players who have assisted Agbaji the most):

keyonte george
olynyk
sexton
tht
dunn
dick
markkanen

Who in that list is creating good shots for other players? Let's look at his playing time with guys who can actually get other players a "good shot"

Conley (2023): Agbaji only played 13% of his minutes with Conley

Barnes: 18% of his minutes

Quickley: 46% of his minutes

The majority of the time he's on the floor Ochai is not playing with a real pg or wing shot creator. Agbaji is far from a perfect but he's not getting put into optimal situations, at least as far as guys getting him easy shots goes. Part of it is Agbaji being very limited as an offensive player but he's not getting a lot of help. As a comparison, OG played 70%+ of his minutes with FVV last year. I'm not saying Agbaji deserves to play with starters but having someone getting him better shots couldn't hurt.

Is Agbaji going to make it? I don't know. But I don't know how much we can take away from his time here given the offensive ecosystem (or lack thereof) he has been in since he arrived.

I think IQ has showed he is very capable of finding open shooters and feeding them, so I don't think it's a matter of who is handling the ball. His issues stem from not being in the right spots, but that could be a system issue, a player issue, or both. I don't think it's fair to put all that on him, but since he's been with the raps 26/56 attempted 3's have been in the corners, that needs to be much higher of a %. I've seen him take some stupid above the break 3's.

Additionally, as much as you want to put a player in the best spot to succeed, Ochai is not the type of player that you change the ballhandlers priority for, he is a low end rotation player, he needs to find himself to be in the right places. IQ, Olynyk, and Scottie are plenty smart enough to find him if he's in a good spot.

I hadn't previously looked at player shooting stats on nba.com from this perspective. A review of Ochai's numbers with both Toronto and Utah is interesting.

Last year with the Jazz, he shot 39.5% on 38 left corner 3's, 50% on 58 right corner 3's and 27.7% on 130 from ATB.
This year with the Jazz, he shot 36.1% on 36 left corner 3's, 50% on 30 right corner 3's, and 25% on 76 from ATB.
This year with the Raps, he shot 41.7% on 12 left corner 3's, 21.4% on 14 right corner 3's and 16.7% on 30 from ATB.

So, if we leave out the Toronto sample, which is small and doubtless skewed by his change to a new system and new responsibilities, we can see that Ochai shoots adequately from the left corner, quite well from the right corner, and poorly above the break. Lots of room to improve, but that's to be expected from a 2nd year player.

I bundled his Utah/Raps attempts together, and he's shooting markedly below league average. Also I think you might be mixing up the left/right, either that or I am lol.

His bad corner he is shooting 36% on the year, with league average from there being 39%. I'm not going to say by any stretch that this is definitively who he is as a player for the rest of his career, but 200 shots can't be ignored, and it's a pattern across 2 seasons. I would agree with your defence of "second year player" if he were not about to turn 24 and had 4 years of college under his belt. Those players are expected to be much more NBA ready than he is.

This year, including in Toronto, he's shooting 37.5% from the left corner on 48 attempts, and 41% from the right corner on 44 attempts. For his almost 2 years in total, he's shooting 38.4% on 86 shots from the left and 46.1% on 102 shots from the right. Assuming your 39% is an accurate value for league average, he's just below on the left side, above on the right, and above overall from the corners at 42.5%. His above the break numbers (25.4% on 236 shots) drags his overall % down to 33% on 424 shots, or just over 3 a game.

If you're trying to define his future shooting based on his struggles in his short stint in Toronto, I think you're making a major mistake. His pattern across 2 seasons is a better than average corner shooter who struggles above the break. I think he can, and will, be better. As to him not being "NBA ready" enough based on being a 4 year college guy, he's doing just fine on defence and corner 3's, which gives him a solid floor. We'll see how he continues to develop, but it seems highly likely that he'll continue to progress.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but they aren't matching what I am getting from stat muse.

This year he is shooting 40.9% from the right corner, with league average being 39.2%, 1.7% above league average. From the left he is shooting 36.2%, with league average being 39.1%, 2.9% below league average.

For his career, from the right he is shooting 46.6%, with league average over that time being 38.8%, 7.8% above league average.
From the left he is shooting 37.6%, with league average being 38.8%, 0.8% below league average.

I'm not defining his future based on his short tenure here, but rather assuming based on past history, he is really only a good shooter from a single place on the floor, and that if he is to be worth sticking on this roster, that needs to expand to both corners, and seriously cut back on his above the break 3's. He's not played a lot in the NBA at a grand total of 123 games, but this also isn't Gradey getting dumped on his first 20 games in the league.

Naturally there is room for improvement, but the question is whether it is worth it to give him coaches time, practice time, salary, and most importantly NBA floor time, for a 24 year old vs potentially doing the same with a 19/20 year old you can draft this year, who results in longer contract control, and the ability to mould them as more of a blank canvas to what your team needs.

There are only so many minutes in a game, and only so much time coaches can spend with a player, is he the one to spend that on?

[islandboy53]

I bundled his Utah/Raps attempts together, and he's shooting markedly below league average. Also I think you might be mixing up the left/right, either that or I am lol.

His bad corner he is shooting 36% on the year, with league average from there being 39%. I'm not going to say by any stretch that this is definitively who he is as a player for the rest of his career, but 200 shots can't be ignored, and it's a pattern across 2 seasons. I would agree with your defence of "second year player" if he were not about to turn 24 and had 4 years of college under his belt. Those players are expected to be much more NBA ready than he is.

To come to Agbaji's defense (not that I think he is a world beater) but there has to be some consideration as to who Agbaji is playing with. He's not a guy who should be counted on to create his own shot but he's not playing with anyone (maybe Olynyk?) who can get him clean looks. Here are the top 7 assist combinations for Agbaji (players who have assisted Agbaji the most):

keyonte george
olynyk
sexton
tht
dunn
dick
markkanen

Who in that list is creating good shots for other players? Let's look at his playing time with guys who can actually get other players a "good shot"

Conley (2023): Agbaji only played 13% of his minutes with Conley

Barnes: 18% of his minutes

Quickley: 46% of his minutes

The majority of the time he's on the floor Ochai is not playing with a real pg or wing shot creator. Agbaji is far from a perfect but he's not getting put into optimal situations, at least as far as guys getting him easy shots goes. Part of it is Agbaji being very limited as an offensive player but he's not getting a lot of help. As a comparison, OG played 70%+ of his minutes with FVV last year. I'm not saying Agbaji deserves to play with starters but having someone getting him better shots couldn't hurt.

Is Agbaji going to make it? I don't know. But I don't know how much we can take away from his time here given the offensive ecosystem (or lack thereof) he has been in since he arrived.

I think IQ has showed he is very capable of finding open shooters and feeding them, so I don't think it's a matter of who is handling the ball. His issues stem from not being in the right spots, but that could be a system issue, a player issue, or both. I don't think it's fair to put all that on him, but since he's been with the raps 26/56 attempted 3's have been in the corners, that needs to be much higher of a %. I've seen him take some stupid above the break 3's.

Additionally, as much as you want to put a player in the best spot to succeed, Ochai is not the type of player that you change the ballhandlers priority for, he is a low end rotation player, he needs to find himself to be in the right places. IQ, Olynyk, and Scottie are plenty smart enough to find him if he's in a good spot.

I bundled his Utah/Raps attempts together, and he's shooting markedly below league average. Also I think you might be mixing up the left/right, either that or I am lol.

His bad corner he is shooting 36% on the year, with league average from there being 39%. I'm not going to say by any stretch that this is definitively who he is as a player for the rest of his career, but 200 shots can't be ignored, and it's a pattern across 2 seasons. I would agree with your defence of "second year player" if he were not about to turn 24 and had 4 years of college under his belt. Those players are expected to be much more NBA ready than he is.

This year, including in Toronto, he's shooting 37.5% from the left corner on 48 attempts, and 41% from the right corner on 44 attempts. For his almost 2 years in total, he's shooting 38.4% on 86 shots from the left and 46.1% on 102 shots from the right. Assuming your 39% is an accurate value for league average, he's just below on the left side, above on the right, and above overall from the corners at 42.5%. His above the break numbers (25.4% on 236 shots) drags his overall % down to 33% on 424 shots, or just over 3 a game.

If you're trying to define his future shooting based on his struggles in his short stint in Toronto, I think you're making a major mistake. His pattern across 2 seasons is a better than average corner shooter who struggles above the break. I think he can, and will, be better. As to him not being "NBA ready" enough based on being a 4 year college guy, he's doing just fine on defence and corner 3's, which gives him a solid floor. We'll see how he continues to develop, but it seems highly likely that he'll continue to progress.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but they aren't matching what I am getting from stat muse.

My numbers are from nba.com player stats, and are virtually identical. Just to illustrate the impact of small sample sizes, nba.com has him at 18/45, or 37.5%, from the left corner, versus 17/47, or 36.1%, on statsmuse.

This year he is shooting 40.9% from the right corner, with league average being 39.2%, 1.7% above league average. From the left he is shooting 36.2%, with league average being 39.1%, 2.9% below league average.

For his career, from the right he is shooting 46.6%, with league average over that time being 38.8%, 7.8% above league average.
From the left he is shooting 37.6%, with league average being 38.8%, 0.8% below league average.

Nba.com has him at 33/86 (38.4%) from the left vs 32/85 (37.6%) on statsmuse. Similarly, its 47/102 (46.1%) versus 48/103 (46.6%) from the right. But, with either set of numbers - which are virtually identical - it's fair to say he's either average or slightly below from the left side, and nicely above average on the right side.

I'm not defining his future based on his short tenure here, but rather assuming based on past history, he is really only a good shooter from a single place on the floor, and that if he is to be worth sticking on this roster, that needs to expand to both corners, and seriously cut back on his above the break 3's. He's not played a lot in the NBA at a grand total of 123 games, but this also isn't Gradey getting dumped on his first 20 games in the league.

Let's be honest here. He's a good corner shooter so far, period. Yes, he needs to improve his shooting in all areas to become a very good rotation player. The thing you continue to ignore is that he's already a fair rotation player based on his defence and his overall shooting so far (he's slightly below average in the restricted area, which is really the only other place he shoots at this point).

Naturally there is room for improvement, but the question is whether it is worth it to give him coaches time, practice time, salary, and most importantly NBA floor time, for a 24 year old vs potentially doing the same with a 19/20 year old you can draft this year, who results in longer contract control, and the ability to mould them as more of a blank canvas to what your team needs.

There are only so many minutes in a game, and only so much time coaches can spend with a player, is he the one to spend that on?

You seem obsessed with this 19/20 year old blank canvas. The 28th pick in this draft is more likely to spend most of next season on the 905 rather than see any meaningful nba minutes. He'll start at about $2.5 million versus Ochai's $4.3 million, a very minor difference in relation to total team salary. Ochai has 2 more years on his rookie deal, then can, and likely will, be extended. He'll cost a bit more than your blank canvas the whole time, but he'll also be a better player. Also, you assume that we got stuck with Ochai, which is an odd assumption. Clearly, we chose him, because he fits team needs for a wing defender who shoots, with potential to shoot well. Finally, we'll already have at least 2 rookies next year, on top of other young players. Overall development should be easier with Ochai versus another rookie.

[Scase]

To come to Agbaji's defense (not that I think he is a world beater) but there has to be some consideration as to who Agbaji is playing with. He's not a guy who should be counted on to create his own shot but he's not playing with anyone (maybe Olynyk?) who can get him clean looks. Here are the top 7 assist combinations for Agbaji (players who have assisted Agbaji the most):

keyonte george
olynyk
sexton
tht
dunn
dick
markkanen

Who in that list is creating good shots for other players? Let's look at his playing time with guys who can actually get other players a "good shot"

Conley (2023): Agbaji only played 13% of his minutes with Conley

Barnes: 18% of his minutes

Quickley: 46% of his minutes

The majority of the time he's on the floor Ochai is not playing with a real pg or wing shot creator. Agbaji is far from a perfect but he's not getting put into optimal situations, at least as far as guys getting him easy shots goes. Part of it is Agbaji being very limited as an offensive player but he's not getting a lot of help. As a comparison, OG played 70%+ of his minutes with FVV last year. I'm not saying Agbaji deserves to play with starters but having someone getting him better shots couldn't hurt.

Is Agbaji going to make it? I don't know. But I don't know how much we can take away from his time here given the offensive ecosystem (or lack thereof) he has been in since he arrived.

I think IQ has showed he is very capable of finding open shooters and feeding them, so I don't think it's a matter of who is handling the ball. His issues stem from not being in the right spots, but that could be a system issue, a player issue, or both. I don't think it's fair to put all that on him, but since he's been with the raps 26/56 attempted 3's have been in the corners, that needs to be much higher of a %. I've seen him take some stupid above the break 3's.

Additionally, as much as you want to put a player in the best spot to succeed, Ochai is not the type of player that you change the ballhandlers priority for, he is a low end rotation player, he needs to find himself to be in the right places. IQ, Olynyk, and Scottie are plenty smart enough to find him if he's in a good spot.

This year, including in Toronto, he's shooting 37.5% from the left corner on 48 attempts, and 41% from the right corner on 44 attempts. For his almost 2 years in total, he's shooting 38.4% on 86 shots from the left and 46.1% on 102 shots from the right. Assuming your 39% is an accurate value for league average, he's just below on the left side, above on the right, and above overall from the corners at 42.5%. His above the break numbers (25.4% on 236 shots) drags his overall % down to 33% on 424 shots, or just over 3 a game.

If you're trying to define his future shooting based on his struggles in his short stint in Toronto, I think you're making a major mistake. His pattern across 2 seasons is a better than average corner shooter who struggles above the break. I think he can, and will, be better. As to him not being "NBA ready" enough based on being a 4 year college guy, he's doing just fine on defence and corner 3's, which gives him a solid floor. We'll see how he continues to develop, but it seems highly likely that he'll continue to progress.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but they aren't matching what I am getting from stat muse.

My numbers are from nba.com player stats, and are virtually identical. Just to illustrate the impact of small sample sizes, nba.com has him at 18/45, or 37.5%, from the left corner, versus 17/47, or 36.1%, on statsmuse.

This year he is shooting 40.9% from the right corner, with league average being 39.2%, 1.7% above league average. From the left he is shooting 36.2%, with league average being 39.1%, 2.9% below league average.

For his career, from the right he is shooting 46.6%, with league average over that time being 38.8%, 7.8% above league average.
From the left he is shooting 37.6%, with league average being 38.8%, 0.8% below league average.

Nba.com has him at 33/86 (38.4%) from the left vs 32/85 (37.6%) on statsmuse. Similarly, its 47/102 (46.1%) versus 48/103 (46.6%) from the right. But, with either set of numbers - which are virtually identical - it's fair to say he's either average or slightly below from the left side, and nicely above average on the right side.

I'm not defining his future based on his short tenure here, but rather assuming based on past history, he is really only a good shooter from a single place on the floor, and that if he is to be worth sticking on this roster, that needs to expand to both corners, and seriously cut back on his above the break 3's. He's not played a lot in the NBA at a grand total of 123 games, but this also isn't Gradey getting dumped on his first 20 games in the league.

Let's be honest here. He's a good corner shooter so far, period. Yes, he needs to improve his shooting in all areas to become a very good rotation player. The thing you continue to ignore is that he's already a fair rotation player based on his defence and his overall shooting so far (he's slightly below average in the restricted area, which is really the only other place he shoots at this point).

Naturally there is room for improvement, but the question is whether it is worth it to give him coaches time, practice time, salary, and most importantly NBA floor time, for a 24 year old vs potentially doing the same with a 19/20 year old you can draft this year, who results in longer contract control, and the ability to mould them as more of a blank canvas to what your team needs.

There are only so many minutes in a game, and only so much time coaches can spend with a player, is he the one to spend that on?

You seem obsessed with this 19/20 year old blank canvas. The 28th pick in this draft is more likely to spend most of next season on the 905 rather than see any meaningful nba minutes. He'll start at about $2.5 million versus Ochai's $4.3 million, a very minor difference in relation to total team salary. Ochai has 2 more years on his rookie deal, then can, and likely will, be extended. He'll cost a bit more than your blank canvas the whole time, but he'll also be a better player. Also, you assume that we got stuck with Ochai, which is an odd assumption. Clearly, we chose him, because he fits team needs for a wing defender who shoots, with potential to shoot well. Finally, we'll already have at least 2 rookies next year, on top of other young players. Overall development should be easier with Ochai versus another rookie.

I'm not ignoring him being a rotation player. I'm taking into account the context that he's a "rotation" player, on one of the worst teams in the league with 4 starters missing lol.

He is not a rotation player on even a .500 team.

As for the rookie you could draft instead, it's not an obsession, it's just smart team building. Lower cost, more control, and the ability to pick from any player available at that slot, vs 1 random player the Jazz were willing to part with.

Again, I don't think he's awful, I just don't think he's worth putting a whole lot of effort into developing is all. It's a wasted season with a bunch of starters out, let him run wild. But next season, I would hope that unless he shows a LOT of promise over the summer, he's buried on the depth chart.

[islandboy53]

I'm not ignoring him being a rotation player. I'm taking into account the context that he's a "rotation" player, on one of the worst teams in the league with 4 starters missing lol.

He is not a rotation player on even a .500 team.

He's actually a starter on one of the currently worst teams in the league. He was playing 20 minutes a game in Utah last year, when they were a .500 team until the final weeks of the season. He was playing 20 mpg again this year as the Jazz continued playing .500 ball prior to the TDL.

As for the rookie you could draft instead, it's not an obsession, it's just smart team building. Lower cost, more control, and the ability to pick from any player available at that slot, vs 1 random player the Jazz were willing to part with.

You're just non-stop nonsense, my guy. Agbaji was not a "random player the Jazz were willing to part with". Toronto wanted him or the deal didn't happen. He fits a team need. We have adequate control over him. And, simply put, opting for the 28th pick in this draft over Agbaji is the opposite of smart.

Again, I don't think he's awful, I just don't think he's worth putting a whole lot of effort into developing is all. It's a wasted season with a bunch of starters out, let him run wild. But next season, I would hope that unless he shows a LOT of promise over the summer, he's buried on the depth chart.

My guy, we just traded for him, so I hope we're putting lots of development time into him. He's a good young player, with lots of potential. He;s certainly not going to be buried on the depth chart.

[Scase]

I'm not ignoring him being a rotation player. I'm taking into account the context that he's a "rotation" player, on one of the worst teams in the league with 4 starters missing lol.

He is not a rotation player on even a .500 team.

He's actually a starter on one of the currently worst teams in the league. He was playing 20 minutes a game in Utah last year, when they were a .500 team until the final weeks of the season. He was playing 20 mpg again this year as the Jazz continued playing .500 ball prior to the TDL.

As for the rookie you could draft instead, it's not an obsession, it's just smart team building. Lower cost, more control, and the ability to pick from any player available at that slot, vs 1 random player the Jazz were willing to part with.

You're just non-stop nonsense, my guy. Agbaji was not a "random player the Jazz were willing to part with". Toronto wanted him or the deal didn't happen. He fits a team need. We have adequate control over him. And, simply put, opting for the 28th pick in this draft over Agbaji is the opposite of smart.

Again, I don't think he's awful, I just don't think he's worth putting a whole lot of effort into developing is all. It's a wasted season with a bunch of starters out, let him run wild. But next season, I would hope that unless he shows a LOT of promise over the summer, he's buried on the depth chart.

My guy, we just traded for him, so I hope we're putting lots of development time into him. He's a good young player, with lots of potential. He;s certainly not going to be buried on the depth chart.

It has been widely reported that the trade for the Jazz centered around acquiring Olynyk, not Ochai. As for potential, "lots" is definitely stretching it. His likely end result is like an 8-9th guy off the bench, his ceiling is a 6th man, not exactly what i'd call "lots" of potential. I do not get your infatuation with him.

[islandboy53]

I'm not ignoring him being a rotation player. I'm taking into account the context that he's a "rotation" player, on one of the worst teams in the league with 4 starters missing lol.

He is not a rotation player on even a .500 team.

He's actually a starter on one of the currently worst teams in the league. He was playing 20 minutes a game in Utah last year, when they were a .500 team until the final weeks of the season. He was playing 20 mpg again this year as the Jazz continued playing .500 ball prior to the TDL.

As for the rookie you could draft instead, it's not an obsession, it's just smart team building. Lower cost, more control, and the ability to pick from any player available at that slot, vs 1 random player the Jazz were willing to part with.

You're just non-stop nonsense, my guy. Agbaji was not a "random player the Jazz were willing to part with". Toronto wanted him or the deal didn't happen. He fits a team need. We have adequate control over him. And, simply put, opting for the 28th pick in this draft over Agbaji is the opposite of smart.

Again, I don't think he's awful, I just don't think he's worth putting a whole lot of effort into developing is all. It's a wasted season with a bunch of starters out, let him run wild. But next season, I would hope that unless he shows a LOT of promise over the summer, he's buried on the depth chart.

My guy, we just traded for him, so I hope we're putting lots of development time into him. He's a good young player, with lots of potential. He;s certainly not going to be buried on the depth chart.

It has been widely reported that the trade for the Jazz centered around acquiring Olynyk, not Ochai. As for potential, "lots" is definitely stretching it. His likely end result is like an 8-9th guy off the bench, his ceiling is a 6th man, not exactly what i'd call "lots" of potential. I do not get your infatuation with him.

Utah were looking at lots of potential moves, including buying versus selling. Olynyk was a target for a number of teams, including the Raptors. That said, you should read this article. https://kslsports.com/510938/utah-jazz-trade-deadline-ochai-agbaji-bruce-brown. Some notable items from that article.

"“The Jazz, according to league sources, have discussed a framework with the Raptors that would bring Brown to Utah in return for Kelly Olynyk and Ochai Agbaji,” Fischer wrote, adding that the Raptors are still looking for a first-round pick in any potential deal."

'While Olynyk has been the Jazz’s most coveted name over the last month, KSL Sports has learned that Agbaji has gained steam in recent trade talks."

Quibble over "lots" if you must, but I think most reasonable folks would be happy to get a solid rotation player, potential 6th man in return for the 28th pick. I like what I see in Agbaji and what he can become as part of this rebuilding team. That's hardly an infatuation. What I fail to understand is why you're such a fan of slow walking the rebuild.

[raptor jesus]

I'm quite impressed with what Darko's been able to do with the offense. It's clear the team has completely bought into what he emphasized when he was hired: ball movement and player movement. Obviously the results overall haven't been great due to all the lineup shake ups and lack of talent, but still, going from bottom 10 to top 10 in assists in 1 season with a bad roster says something about his ability to coach offense.

The other side of the floor has been somewhat disappointing. Granted, I haven't watched as much this season, but I can't recall many games where I thought the defense was flying around, playing with max effort. The defense seems consistently casual under Darko.

[Scase]

He's actually a starter on one of the currently worst teams in the league. He was playing 20 minutes a game in Utah last year, when they were a .500 team until the final weeks of the season. He was playing 20 mpg again this year as the Jazz continued playing .500 ball prior to the TDL.



You're just non-stop nonsense, my guy. Agbaji was not a "random player the Jazz were willing to part with". Toronto wanted him or the deal didn't happen. He fits a team need. We have adequate control over him. And, simply put, opting for the 28th pick in this draft over Agbaji is the opposite of smart.



My guy, we just traded for him, so I hope we're putting lots of development time into him. He's a good young player, with lots of potential. He;s certainly not going to be buried on the depth chart.

It has been widely reported that the trade for the Jazz centered around acquiring Olynyk, not Ochai. As for potential, "lots" is definitely stretching it. His likely end result is like an 8-9th guy off the bench, his ceiling is a 6th man, not exactly what i'd call "lots" of potential. I do not get your infatuation with him.

Utah were looking at lots of potential moves, including buying versus selling. Olynyk was a target for a number of teams, including the Raptors. That said, you should read this article. https://kslsports.com/510938/utah-jazz-trade-deadline-ochai-agbaji-bruce-brown. Some notable items from that article.

"“The Jazz, according to league sources, have discussed a framework with the Raptors that would bring Brown to Utah in return for Kelly Olynyk and Ochai Agbaji,” Fischer wrote, adding that the Raptors are still looking for a first-round pick in any potential deal."

'While Olynyk has been the Jazz’s most coveted name over the last month, KSL Sports has learned that Agbaji has gained steam in recent trade talks."

Quibble over "lots" if you must, but I think most reasonable folks would be happy to get a solid rotation player, potential 6th man in return for the 28th pick. I like what I see in Agbaji and what he can become as part of this rebuilding team. That's hardly an infatuation. What I fail to understand is why you're such a fan of slow walking the rebuild.

That report might be worth no more than a grain of salt, it specifically states we were LOOKING at getting a FRP, but instead we sent one out

Regardless, I understand your opinion on Ochai, I respect your opinion on him/the situation, I just don't agree with it is all.

I don't think focusing on a rookie with more updside/control/etc is "slow walking" a rebuild. That implies that Ochai is speeding it up any measurable degree which I wholeheartedly have to disagree with. He doesn't move the needle in the slightest, unless he REALLY improves his 3pt shooting and his shot selection, he is an extremely niche player that would get 10-12mpg at best, on any team in a playoff position.

His defence is solid, but it isn't good enough to make up for essentially being 4 on 5 on offence, he ain't Gobert. There are very few if any defensive specialists in the NBA anymore, all of them basically default to a 3+D player, and until he can reliably become that, he doesn't have much of a reason to be on any rosters.

[Scase]

I'm quite impressed with what Darko's been able to do with the offense. It's clear the team has completely bought into what he emphasized when he was hired: ball movement and player movement. Obviously the results overall haven't been great due to all the lineup shake ups and lack of talent, but still, going from bottom 10 to top 10 in assists in 1 season with a bad roster says something about his ability to coach offense.

The other side of the floor has been somewhat disappointing. Granted, I haven't watched as much this season, but I can't recall many games where I thought the defense was flying around, playing with max effort. The defense seems consistently casual under Darko.

All signs point to them focusing only on getting the offence sorted out for now. I think after a full off season, we might have a better idea of what his defensive sets might actually look like. We also need the right personnel for anything that he is attempting, Nurse was brilliant defensively, but if you don't have the right players, you can see it fall apart as we did.

If Darko is here for the foreseeable future, I hope the FO works with him closely to populate the roster with the types of players he needs, unlike what happened with Nurse.

[islandboy53]

It has been widely reported that the trade for the Jazz centered around acquiring Olynyk, not Ochai. As for potential, "lots" is definitely stretching it. His likely end result is like an 8-9th guy off the bench, his ceiling is a 6th man, not exactly what i'd call "lots" of potential. I do not get your infatuation with him.

Utah were looking at lots of potential moves, including buying versus selling. Olynyk was a target for a number of teams, including the Raptors. That said, you should read this article. https://kslsports.com/510938/utah-jazz-trade-deadline-ochai-agbaji-bruce-brown. Some notable items from that article.

"“The Jazz, according to league sources, have discussed a framework with the Raptors that would bring Brown to Utah in return for Kelly Olynyk and Ochai Agbaji,” Fischer wrote, adding that the Raptors are still looking for a first-round pick in any potential deal."

'While Olynyk has been the Jazz’s most coveted name over the last month, KSL Sports has learned that Agbaji has gained steam in recent trade talks."

Quibble over "lots" if you must, but I think most reasonable folks would be happy to get a solid rotation player, potential 6th man in return for the 28th pick. I like what I see in Agbaji and what he can become as part of this rebuilding team. That's hardly an infatuation. What I fail to understand is why you're such a fan of slow walking the rebuild.

That report might be worth no more than a grain of salt, it specifically states we were LOOKING at getting a FRP, but instead we sent one out

We were looking at getting a pick back because we were sending Brown the other way. This sounds consistent with other reports regarding our asking price for Brown. Clearly, Utah didn't want to pay that, and the deal ended up switching Brown for the OKC 1st and filler. But the point of the report was to illustrate that this wasn't just an Olynyk-centric deal, a point you've chosen to ignore. Also, attempting to denigrate the report, poorly by the way, is part of your ongoing shift the goalposts strategy every time someone points out the flaws in your arguments.

Regardless, I understand your opinion on Ochai, I respect your opinion on him/the situation, I just don't agree with it is all.

Cool.

I don't think focusing on a rookie with more updside/control/etc is "slow walking" a rebuild. That implies that Ochai is speeding it up any measurable degree which I wholeheartedly have to disagree with.

The point you're choosing to ignore is that a 28th pick will be lucky to see any floor time his first year. Ochai is clearly in the rotation, even with everyone back, and will make valuable contributions next year, while your 19/20 year old blank slate sitting at the end of the bench, or down on the 905, will add nothing.

He doesn't move the needle in the slightest, unless he REALLY improves his 3pt shooting and his shot selection, he is an extremely niche player that would get 10-12mpg at best, on any team in a playoff position.

I think 10 - 12 mpg on a playoff team sounds right at this point. As his overall shooting improves, he'll be a capable bench guy on most good teams, which we'll be in due course.

His defence is solid, but it isn't good enough to make up for essentially being 4 on 5 on offence, he ain't Gobert. There are very few if any defensive specialists in the NBA anymore, all of them basically default to a 3+D player, and until he can reliably become that, he doesn't have much of a reason to be on any rosters.

Yet another of your outlandish, indefensible takes. No one is saying he's Gobert, or OG. Ochai is a below average shooter, so far, but he's by no means 4 on 5 level. For his 2 years he's scoring 7 points on 6 shots, which is better than lots of seasoned vets on playoff teams, while providing solid defence.

[disoblige]

I'm quite impressed with what Darko's been able to do with the offense. It's clear the team has completely bought into what he emphasized when he was hired: ball movement and player movement. Obviously the results overall haven't been great due to all the lineup shake ups and lack of talent, but still, going from bottom 10 to top 10 in assists in 1 season with a bad roster says something about his ability to coach offense.

The other side of the floor has been somewhat disappointing. Granted, I haven't watched as much this season, but I can't recall many games where I thought the defense was flying around, playing with max effort. The defense seems consistently casual under Darko.

Its a mirage. His only plan is to cheese the opponents with drives and cuts forcefully and opponents will eventually adapt to his strategy. Off the dribble shots, mid-range and ISOs are not welcomed. Yes, it will look wonderful from the outside and team with have more assist and ball movement. But this wont translate to wins on high level games. He will just blame the players for mistakes and effort instead of him leveraging his players strengths.

[Scase]

Utah were looking at lots of potential moves, including buying versus selling. Olynyk was a target for a number of teams, including the Raptors. That said, you should read this article. https://kslsports.com/510938/utah-jazz-trade-deadline-ochai-agbaji-bruce-brown. Some notable items from that article.

"“The Jazz, according to league sources, have discussed a framework with the Raptors that would bring Brown to Utah in return for Kelly Olynyk and Ochai Agbaji,” Fischer wrote, adding that the Raptors are still looking for a first-round pick in any potential deal."

'While Olynyk has been the Jazz’s most coveted name over the last month, KSL Sports has learned that Agbaji has gained steam in recent trade talks."

Quibble over "lots" if you must, but I think most reasonable folks would be happy to get a solid rotation player, potential 6th man in return for the 28th pick. I like what I see in Agbaji and what he can become as part of this rebuilding team. That's hardly an infatuation. What I fail to understand is why you're such a fan of slow walking the rebuild.

That report might be worth no more than a grain of salt, it specifically states we were LOOKING at getting a FRP, but instead we sent one out

We were looking at getting a pick back because we were sending Brown the other way. This sounds consistent with other reports regarding our asking price for Brown. Clearly, Utah didn't want to pay that, and the deal ended up switching Brown for the OKC 1st and filler. But the point of the report was to illustrate that this wasn't just an Olynyk-centric deal, a point you've chosen to ignore. Also, attempting to denigrate the report, poorly by the way, is part of your ongoing shift the goalposts strategy every time someone points out the flaws in your arguments.

Regardless, I understand your opinion on Ochai, I respect your opinion on him/the situation, I just don't agree with it is all.

Cool.

I don't think focusing on a rookie with more updside/control/etc is "slow walking" a rebuild. That implies that Ochai is speeding it up any measurable degree which I wholeheartedly have to disagree with.

The point you're choosing to ignore is that a 28th pick will be lucky to see any floor time his first year. Ochai is clearly in the rotation, even with everyone back, and will make valuable contributions next year, while your 19/20 year old blank slate sitting at the end of the bench, or down on the 905, will add nothing.

He doesn't move the needle in the slightest, unless he REALLY improves his 3pt shooting and his shot selection, he is an extremely niche player that would get 10-12mpg at best, on any team in a playoff position.

I think 10 - 12 mpg on a playoff team sounds right at this point. As his overall shooting improves, he'll be a capable bench guy on most good teams, which we'll be in due course.

His defence is solid, but it isn't good enough to make up for essentially being 4 on 5 on offence, he ain't Gobert. There are very few if any defensive specialists in the NBA anymore, all of them basically default to a 3+D player, and until he can reliably become that, he doesn't have much of a reason to be on any rosters.

Yet another of your outlandish, indefensible takes. No one is saying he's Gobert, or OG. Ochai is a below average shooter, so far, but he's by no means 4 on 5 level. For his 2 years he's scoring 7 points on 6 shots, which is better than lots of seasoned vets on playoff teams, while providing solid defence.

I'm not denigrating the report, jesus stop being so over the top, I just said take it with a grain of salt. How tf is that shifting goalposts, YOU brought the report up.

Yes I get the idea that brown was in the mix to get said FRP, but it's not relevant to the entire discussion. And just because they traded the 28th for him, doesn't mean I'm suggesting to use the 28th as a replacement for him. 28th can be used elsewhere for something else, while still retaining enough space for the other players picked with better draft picks.

There's more than just a single option.

For his 2 years he's scoring 7 points on 6 shots, which is better than lots of seasoned vets on playoff teams, while providing solid defence.

Ok and? There are rookies he's playing worse than. Wtf is this even supposed to mean. Go take a look at how many rosters have guys that can only play decent defence and contribute effectively nothing else, and then come back to have the discussion.

Actually don't bother, I'm not wasting any more time discussing a player that is likely off the roster in a couple years.

[islandboy53]

That report might be worth no more than a grain of salt, it specifically states we were LOOKING at getting a FRP, but instead we sent one out

We were looking at getting a pick back because we were sending Brown the other way. This sounds consistent with other reports regarding our asking price for Brown. Clearly, Utah didn't want to pay that, and the deal ended up switching Brown for the OKC 1st and filler. But the point of the report was to illustrate that this wasn't just an Olynyk-centric deal, a point you've chosen to ignore. Also, attempting to denigrate the report, poorly by the way, is part of your ongoing shift the goalposts strategy every time someone points out the flaws in your arguments.

Regardless, I understand your opinion on Ochai, I respect your opinion on him/the situation, I just don't agree with it is all.

Cool.

I don't think focusing on a rookie with more updside/control/etc is "slow walking" a rebuild. That implies that Ochai is speeding it up any measurable degree which I wholeheartedly have to disagree with.

The point you're choosing to ignore is that a 28th pick will be lucky to see any floor time his first year. Ochai is clearly in the rotation, even with everyone back, and will make valuable contributions next year, while your 19/20 year old blank slate sitting at the end of the bench, or down on the 905, will add nothing.

He doesn't move the needle in the slightest, unless he REALLY improves his 3pt shooting and his shot selection, he is an extremely niche player that would get 10-12mpg at best, on any team in a playoff position.

I think 10 - 12 mpg on a playoff team sounds right at this point. As his overall shooting improves, he'll be a capable bench guy on most good teams, which we'll be in due course.

His defence is solid, but it isn't good enough to make up for essentially being 4 on 5 on offence, he ain't Gobert. There are very few if any defensive specialists in the NBA anymore, all of them basically default to a 3+D player, and until he can reliably become that, he doesn't have much of a reason to be on any rosters.

Yet another of your outlandish, indefensible takes. No one is saying he's Gobert, or OG. Ochai is a below average shooter, so far, but he's by no means 4 on 5 level. For his 2 years he's scoring 7 points on 6 shots, which is better than lots of seasoned vets on playoff teams, while providing solid defence.

I'm not denigrating the report, jesus stop being so over the top, I just said take it with a grain of salt. How tf is that shifting goalposts, YOU brought the report up.

I did bring up the report. To rebut a point you were trying to make. You said, "It has been widely reported that the trade for the Jazz centered around acquiring Olynyk, not Ochai.". The report showed your comment was inaccurate. Which is why you said to "take it with a grain of salt". That was you trying to shift the goalposts away from the rebuttal of your point to the validity of the report cited. Perhaps deflecting would be a better descriptor here.

Yes I get the idea that brown was in the mix to get said FRP, but it's not relevant to the entire discussion. And just because they traded the 28th for him, doesn't mean I'm suggesting to use the 28th as a replacement for him. 28th can be used elsewhere for something else, while still retaining enough space for the other players picked with better draft picks.

And the goalposts shift yet again. You spent a lot of time telling me over and over and over how the 28th pick was the preferred choice over Ochai. Now you're saying you didn't actually mean that, and what you really meant was our own pick, if we retain it, or the Indiana pick would give us a better player than Ochai? Maybe, but I assume our picks this year, will have roster spots. Regardless, the OKC pick has been moved, and we have Ochai and Kelly in the rotation next year. Rookies will fit in where they fit in.

For his 2 years he's scoring 7 points on 6 shots, which is better than lots of seasoned vets on playoff teams, while providing solid defence.

Ok and? There are rookies he's playing worse than. Wtf is this even supposed to mean. Go take a look at how many rosters have guys that can only play decent defence and contribute effectively nothing else, and then come back to have the discussion.

You said, "His defence is solid, but it isn't good enough to make up for essentially being 4 on 5 on offence". This is to illustrate that his current level of offence is comparable to rotation players on playoff teams: Klieber, Ingles, Covington, Nance, Connaughton, and more, all playing similar or greater minutes than Ochai, while scoring less, on playoff teams. We can go more in depth if you like, but, bottom line, 5 or 6 or 7 points a game isn't a lot, but not everyone needs to score.

Actually don't bother, I'm not wasting any more time discussing a player that is likely off the roster in a couple years.

I recall fondly the last time you vowed not to discuss a topic further, after you'd been similarly beaten down. Looking forward to your next response.

[sbsat]

Is there ANY chance we dump this guy halfway through next year? Any at all?

[TimeForChange]

I don't know how the players show up next season and put in any effort on defense after seeing how they are playing right now.

edit: jack armstrong is talking about the culture darko is instilling in this team?