Raptors should announce retiring Vince Carter's jersey soon

[kalel123]

I'm surprised at how many people want his jersey retired.

The guy gave up on the team and didn't really have that much team success.

He clearly regrets how it all unfolded, but that doesn't make it alright.

Setting the raptors trot out mcgrady, Carter (and weren't there a few others?) While they ask quit on the team, during our historic playoff run was an embarrassment.

Many of us have pointed this out already only to be called salty.

I think we can acknowledge the significance of Vince as a Raptor without celebrating him. He may be the most important Raptor ever and brought a lot of excitement to the fans. But he also didn’t achieve much and gave up on the team. I’m not enthusiastic about glorifying him.

This is the point many of us are trying to make. Which other franchise is not retiring the jersey of the most important player to ever wear it?

And the point many of us are trying to make is how do you remember all these supposedly "wonderful" things then conveniently choose to ignore the WINCE Carter and the QUIT? When the latter happened more recently?

Dude actually had more down years than good here because it was all downhill after year 3 and he was here more than 6 years. Especially the way his "jumper's knee" BS got miraculously better after the trade and his numbers jumped to rival his best year here is downright the stuff of legends. If you are going to remember the good, you cannot ignore the bad and at the end of the day, dude's a net ZERO at best. Not worth celebrating over.

[wegotthabeet]

They've almost all had either more years spent with team, more personal accolades, or additional playoff success.

Carter falls short in every respect outside of sheer popularity.

how many of them established a basketball culture in an entire country?

So no actual accomplishments outside of him being popular for dunking.

If you didn’t go to games at the Skydome and didn’t live through that time and how his presence changed the entire outlook of the sport and organization in our city/country then you have nothing to add.

[kalel123]

how many of them established a basketball culture in an entire country?

So no actual accomplishments outside of him being popular for dunking.

If you didn’t go to games at the Skydome and didn’t live through that time and how his presence changed the entire outlook of the sport and organization in our city/country then you have nothing to add.

I lived through that time and it included the time his presence changed the entire outlook of the organization right back to the same state it was in before he joined. Net Zero. If you lived through that time and can only remember bits and pieces instead of its entirety, you have nothing to add.

[wegotthabeet]

So no actual accomplishments outside of him being popular for dunking.

If you didn’t go to games at the Skydome and didn’t live through that time and how his presence changed the entire outlook of the sport and organization in our city/country then you have nothing to add.

I lived through that time and it included the time his presence changed the entire outlook of the organization right back to the same state it was in before he joined. Net Zero. If you lived through that time and can only remember bits and pieces instead of its entirety, you have nothing to add.

I know a woman who dated Vince for years and even up until the moment he got engaged to another woman and even she isn’t as jaded as most of posters on this forum. At a certain point, let’s say 20 years later, you need to get on with it.

[Drakeem]

If you didn’t go to games at the Skydome and didn’t live through that time and how his presence changed the entire outlook of the sport and organization in our city/country then you have nothing to add.

I lived through that time and it included the time his presence changed the entire outlook of the organization right back to the same state it was in before he joined. Net Zero. If you lived through that time and can only remember bits and pieces instead of its entirety, you have nothing to add.

I know a woman who dated Vince for years and even up until the moment he got engaged to another woman and even she isn’t as jaded as most of posters on this forum. At a certain point, let’s say 20 years later, you need to get on with it.

I hate when people try to pull the "you're bitter" card bc it's a lame comeback that doesn't actually mean anything.

I've moved on, like far past moved on. I don't really think about that era after the Lowry/DeRozan era and the ring. I'm not hung up on it, but if we're going to have a discussion on whether we should retire his jersey, I'm not going to say yes just because I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, do whatever they want. I just would be voting no bc I don't think he really did anything here that was substantial enough to get that sort of ceremony. DeRozan and Lowry should be the two for us.

[kalel123]

If you didn’t go to games at the Skydome and didn’t live through that time and how his presence changed the entire outlook of the sport and organization in our city/country then you have nothing to add.

I lived through that time and it included the time his presence changed the entire outlook of the organization right back to the same state it was in before he joined. Net Zero. If you lived through that time and can only remember bits and pieces instead of its entirety, you have nothing to add.

I know a woman who dated Vince for years and even up until the moment he got engaged to another woman and even she isn’t as jaded as most of posters on this forum. At a certain point, let’s say 20 years later, you need to get on with it.

Maybe you should listen to your own advice and let go of your fantasies and fairy tale version of what actually happened. Moving on doesn't mean you only remember bits and pieces of what you want to remember while forgetting everything else that happened. People who don't want the jersey retired are actually the people who have truly moved on and would sooner forget those times than be reminded by seeing it on the rafters.

[PerfectJab]

Here are the list of jersey numbers retired in the NBA. Are they all MVP level players?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_retired_numbers

They've almost all had either more years spent with team, more personal accolades, or additional playoff success.

Carter falls short in every respect outside of sheer popularity.

how many of them established a basketball culture in an entire country?

What is this culture that you speak of, losing?

[PerfectJab]

I lived through that time and it included the time his presence changed the entire outlook of the organization right back to the same state it was in before he joined. Net Zero. If you lived through that time and can only remember bits and pieces instead of its entirety, you have nothing to add.

I know a woman who dated Vince for years and even up until the moment he got engaged to another woman and even she isn’t as jaded as most of posters on this forum. At a certain point, let’s say 20 years later, you need to get on with it.

I hate when people try to pull the "you're bitter" card bc it's a lame comeback that doesn't actually mean anything.

I've moved on, like far past moved on. I don't really think about that era after the Lowry/DeRozan era and the ring. I'm not hung up on it, but if we're going to have a discussion on whether we should retire his jersey, I'm not going to say yes just because I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, do whatever they want. I just would be voting no bc I don't think he really did anything here that was substantial enough to get that sort of ceremony. DeRozan and Lowry should be the two for us.

Exactly! There's this automatic assumption that there's some sort of bias whenever the argument is made against his jersey retirement when it's far from guaranteed. He didn't win, only had 2 good seasons and didn't do anything to solidify anything positive about the teams culture. In the end It was more about what he could be rather than what he actually was.

[PerfectJab]

He did have loyalty to the team, the city, and the country. The management sucked. Richard Peddie was a notorious meddler. The media started to needlessly attack Vince for his injuries. And yet Vince has never once said anything bad about the city or the country, in fact it’s always been the opposite with him.

Vince was definitely a superstar. To say he wasn’t…either you are biased or weren’t old enough to experience the phenomenon. Again, Vince was arguably the most popular basketball player in the world at one point.

He wasn’t a winner? Which Raptors roster was he supposed to win with?

Again, there is nobody credible connected to the league—staff or player or media member, who would take any of these “he doesn’t deserve his jersey retired” arguments seriously. You’d literally get laughed at. These folks are able to properly contextualize things in a way bitter, narrow-minded, or uninformed fans simply can’t or won’t.

I would bet all of my money and assets that Vince is gonna get his jersey retired here. And when it happens he will deserve it, the fans will cheer, and the media will laud him. Because he actually was that important.

If you're referring to popularity then he was a superstar similar to what Kemp was. We obviously have different views as to what constitutes a superstar. To me it means the best players in the league which he never was. At his best he was around Paul Pierce's level. The superstars in that era were Garnett, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Duncan and Nowitzki. He wasn't even close to any of those players.

Funny how these so called 'experts' that have credibility only voted him to 2 all NBA teams(Derozan who was without a doubt a better Raptor overall throughout his entire tenure did it 4 times, think about that) and he only cracked the top 10 in MVP voting once in his career in you guessed it, one of those 2 good seasons he had with the Raptors. Again, name one player that was a superstar that never hit top 5 in MVP voting at least once in their career.

Again I disagree that he will get his jersey retired because:

1. Wasn't good enough to make up for lack of below
2. Wasn't loyal to the team (How is admitting to not trying being loyal to the team? How is asking for a trade loyal?)
3. Wasn't a winner (With the Raps or any other team. You talk about his teammates and I'd argue he is not a winning player as one of the center pieces and his time with the Magic and Nets prove it. Problem has always been that he is a lazy player. He doesn't play on both sides of the floor and isn't incredibly efficient to make up for it which makes him a liability for the teams he plays for.

I don't think he will get his jersey retired because that would set the bar low but then again you never know when it comes to these sort of things.

Take away the flashy dunks he was above average not all that efficient and a 1 way player. Without a doubt the best dunker of all time but I don't think that deserves an award.

Here are the list of jersey numbers retired in the NBA. Are they all MVP level players?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_retired_numbers

I like how you decide to focus on one thing when I clearly said he was not good enough to make up for the lack of other 'typical' jersey retirement credentials.

[wegotthabeet]

I lived through that time and it included the time his presence changed the entire outlook of the organization right back to the same state it was in before he joined. Net Zero. If you lived through that time and can only remember bits and pieces instead of its entirety, you have nothing to add.

I know a woman who dated Vince for years and even up until the moment he got engaged to another woman and even she isn’t as jaded as most of posters on this forum. At a certain point, let’s say 20 years later, you need to get on with it.

I hate when people try to pull the "you're bitter" card bc it's a lame comeback that doesn't actually mean anything.

I've moved on, like far past moved on. I don't really think about that era after the Lowry/DeRozan era and the ring. I'm not hung up on it, but if we're going to have a discussion on whether we should retire his jersey, I'm not going to say yes just because I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, do whatever they want. I just would be voting no bc I don't think he really did anything here that was substantial enough to get that sort of ceremony. DeRozan and Lowry should be the two for us.

I’m not sure any of them deserve it honestly. I like that no player has had their jersey retired. The standard should be so high that all three don’t qualify.

[wegotthabeet]

The standard should be best player on a championship team with 10 years minimum playing for the Raptors. Like Kawhi if he were here for a decade. Everything else is just people in their feelings.

[PerfectJab]

The standard should be best player on a championship team with 10 years minimum playing for the Raptors. Like Kawhi if he were here for a decade. Everything else is just people in their feelings.

Yep I agree with the exception being a player that is MVP caliber or a generation-al talent.

[PerfectJab]

I know a woman who dated Vince for years and even up until the moment he got engaged to another woman and even she isn’t as jaded as most of posters on this forum. At a certain point, let’s say 20 years later, you need to get on with it.

I hate when people try to pull the "you're bitter" card bc it's a lame comeback that doesn't actually mean anything.

I've moved on, like far past moved on. I don't really think about that era after the Lowry/DeRozan era and the ring. I'm not hung up on it, but if we're going to have a discussion on whether we should retire his jersey, I'm not going to say yes just because I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, do whatever they want. I just would be voting no bc I don't think he really did anything here that was substantial enough to get that sort of ceremony. DeRozan and Lowry should be the two for us.

I’m not sure any of them deserve it honestly. I like that no player has had their jersey retired. The standard should be so high that all three don’t qualify.

Nah. They set a winning standard which helped to greatly change the culture and were loyal to the team.

They both deserve to be up there but I think it'll be Lowry due to the championship.

[wegotthabeet]

I hate when people try to pull the "you're bitter" card bc it's a lame comeback that doesn't actually mean anything.

I've moved on, like far past moved on. I don't really think about that era after the Lowry/DeRozan era and the ring. I'm not hung up on it, but if we're going to have a discussion on whether we should retire his jersey, I'm not going to say yes just because I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, do whatever they want. I just would be voting no bc I don't think he really did anything here that was substantial enough to get that sort of ceremony. DeRozan and Lowry should be the two for us.

I’m not sure any of them deserve it honestly. I like that no player has had their jersey retired. The standard should be so high that all three don’t qualify.

Nah. They set a winning standard which helped to greatly change the culture and were loyal to the team.

They both deserve to be up there but I think it'll be Lowry due to the championship.

If there was a wall of excellence or whatever the blue jays have then I’d agree, but taking a number completely out of circulation forever nah they weren’t good enough.

[wegotthabeet]

The standard should be best player on a championship team with 10 years minimum playing for the Raptors. Like Kawhi if he were here for a decade. Everything else is just people in their feelings.

Yep I agree with the exception being a player that is MVP caliber or a generation-al talent.

A generational talent would win at least one championship.

[HiJiNX]

Many of us have pointed this out already only to be called salty.

I think we can acknowledge the significance of Vince as a Raptor without celebrating him. He may be the most important Raptor ever and brought a lot of excitement to the fans. But he also didn’t achieve much and gave up on the team. I’m not enthusiastic about glorifying him.

This is the point many of us are trying to make. Which other franchise is not retiring the jersey of the most important player to ever wear it?

And the point many of us are trying to make is how do you remember all these supposedly "wonderful" things then conveniently choose to ignore the WINCE Carter and the QUIT? When the latter happened more recently?

Dude actually had more down years than good here because it was all downhill after year 3 and he was here more than 6 years. Especially the way his "jumper's knee" BS got miraculously better after the trade and his numbers jumped to rival his best year here is downright the stuff of legends. If you are going to remember the good, you cannot ignore the bad and at the end of the day, dude's a net ZERO at best. Not worth celebrating over.

Exactly what I mean about bitter fans.

[CazOnReal]

Here are the Raptors that should have their jerseys retired:
1. Lowry
2. DeMar
3. Siakam

All of them are active.

The standard should be best player on a championship team with 10 years minimum playing for the Raptors. Like Kawhi if he were here for a decade. Everything else is just people in their feelings.

Yep I agree with the exception being a player that is MVP caliber or a generation-al talent.

A generational talent would win at least one championship.

Or more than one playoff series like Vince did in Toronto.

[Corson27]

This is the point many of us are trying to make. Which other franchise is not retiring the jersey of the most important player to ever wear it?

And the point many of us are trying to make is how do you remember all these supposedly "wonderful" things then conveniently choose to ignore the WINCE Carter and the QUIT? When the latter happened more recently?

Dude actually had more down years than good here because it was all downhill after year 3 and he was here more than 6 years. Especially the way his "jumper's knee" BS got miraculously better after the trade and his numbers jumped to rival his best year here is downright the stuff of legends. If you are going to remember the good, you cannot ignore the bad and at the end of the day, dude's a net ZERO at best. Not worth celebrating over.

Exactly what I mean about bitter fans.

I do think it’s quite funny that people choose to ignore the “leadership” team in place at the time of the trade, and the players the Raptors threw out on the court. Like you’re expected to lead a team to multiple playoff wins when your 2nd leading scorer was Voshon Leonard and guys like Michael Bradley, Chris Jeffries and Jelani McCoy were starting games at various points of the season lol. Then 2/5ths of the starters were traded the following year.

The second most valuable player in this era for the Raptors was arguably Antonio Davis. Who somehow shot between 40% - 43% as a big man (!) in his years here, never averaged more than 14.5 ppg, complained about the metric system making his kids stupid before also forcing his way out.

[wegotthabeet]

Here are the Raptors that should have their jerseys retired:
1. Lowry
2. DeMar
3. Siakam

All of them are active.

Yep I agree with the exception being a player that is MVP caliber or a generation-al talent.

A generational talent would win at least one championship.

Or more than one playoff series like Vince did in Toronto.

Don’t forget that Vince was also this franchise’s biggest unrestricted free agent signing ever, by a wide margin. Could’ve easily walked after ‘01 but didn’t. And unlike Lowry he didn’t re-sign because the Raptors had by far the highest offer.

[CazOnReal]

Here are the Raptors that should have their jerseys retired:
1. Lowry
2. DeMar
3. Siakam

All of them are active.

A generational talent would win at least one championship.

Or more than one playoff series like Vince did in Toronto.

Don’t forget that Vince was also this franchise’s biggest unrestricted free agent signing ever, by a wide margin. And unlike Lowry he didn’t re-sign because the Raptors had by far the highest offer.

See it's disingenuous sh*t like this which annoys me regarding people overinflating Vince's legacy as a means of trying to justify retiring his jersey.

I am not giving Vince Carter credit for re-signing with Toronto when he got the maximum offer possible under the then-current CBA designations and it was an extension, not him re-signing in free agency: https://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/02/sports/pro-basketball-carter-agrees-to-contract-olajuwon-to-join-raptors.html

Carter, who averaged 27.6 points a game last season, will receive the maximum amount of money allowable under the league's collective bargaining agreement. The exact figure, which will be about $90 million, will not be determined until the salary cap for the 2002-3 season is set. Whatever the number, Carter, 24, will be the highest-paid athlete in Canadian history.

This also happened after the team gave away assets to sign a washed Hakeem via a sign and trade (Granted the Rockets didn't get anything out of the trade in the long run but I digress), while Carter got a 94M/6 year extension after the salary cap was determined.

"It's obvious that Vince is certainly a player that qualifies for whatever the maximum allows," said Grunwald, who pumped his fists when Carter thanked him for giving him time to decide. "We've been talking about Vince, about his desire to make sure that he's happy here. We want him to be a Raptor for life."

I am not giving him credit for being the "biggest UFA signing" when he still had a year on his deal when the extension was signed, when it was the best offer possible under the CBA i.e. this wasn't some Dirk taking a paycut to help the Mavericks out in free agency and how he forced his way off the team despite being under that new, pricey contract for a few more years. This is like if Scottie Barnes won MVP next season and we called extending him "our biggest restricted free agent signing" shortly thereafter.