Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[dagger]

I think you have to consider that the worst of the three firsts from the Pascal trade - almost certainly near the end of the first round in a mediocre draft - has been converted into Ochai Agbaji who projects at a minimum as a competent bench player on a good team, with more potential offensive upside. He's potentially the kind of guy you can extend two years from now at a very nice bargain price. Without knowing what Brown - or the cap space he would yield if his option isn't picked up - and without knowing what the other two firsts will yield, it's pretty hard to be dogmatic about the return Masai got. I think he waited too long, but Pascal was not every team's ideal star, fitting only a few like Indiana which had strong outside scoring but lacked any kind of interior threat. Nor did he ever have the kind of star power that attracts overpays. Bradley Beal had this superstar power, built up over years of a media narrative that glorifies his style of play, although I always thought he was more bark than bite, i.e. he never really felt like a superstar to me.

This is the kind of draft coming up where the Indiana pick might yield a good rotation player, because teams in that range are freed from having to draft the obligatory freshman or sophomore for theoretical high upside and can pick any college player, even a senior, and can think in terms of fit or need. (If we keep our own pick, that will be BPA, but the Indiana and Detroit second rounder won't have any such constraints because BPA differences will be too slight to measure unless you get a Pascal type wildcard whom all other teams have seriously underrated.)

[PD28]

Pacers also looking like they added basically nothing

[anotherhomer]

Pacers also looking like they added basically nothing

pacers got a really good player who fits really well with them
they have to pay the 4-yr max, which is risky and a lot

[Johnny Bball]

Pacers also looking like they added basically nothing

They would have been right effed if Siakam wasn't there.

[YogurtProducer]

I find it funny that the same posters who wanted Siakam traded for years and the ones now upset we did not get enough for him. Almost like nothing we do will ever satisfy them

[Los_29]

What the hells even being discussed in this thread? The trade was horrible simply because of the desperate position Masai put himself in.

If the Raptors are able to get a multiple time allstar/all nba player for Bruce, scrubs and those 3 level of picks this offseason... everyone would sign up asap.

Arguing otherwise just makes you look so damn homerish. Hope MLSE is atleast paying some of you folks for these takes lol.

What trade option for Pascal was better? I'll wait,...that's right you don't know. Neither do I. I believe it wasn't nearly as big as many of you assumed it to have been. And many are not considering salary. The Pascal trade was a win salary wise in a tight financial market. Potentially. The Poeltl trade I do not like either. Yet lets not forget Birch's final season wasn't dumped. Following the NHL and it's hard cap structure shows the importance of financial flexibility and the cost to acquire it.

Don't put yourself in quite literally the worst bargaining position possible, and maybe you extract more value. Wild concept. Keep dealing from a position of disadvantage, and yeah even the rumoured trades will look bad.

I agree that Siakams value was greatly overstated by a lot of fans, but suggesting that what we got for him was ok, because it was the best possible return is nonsense, when the reason it was such a bad return was due to poor management.

I've said it before and I will say it again, Masai was either wrong building a team with Siakam being "the guy" for 4 years, or Siakam had value and he ruined it and was stuck with a bad trade return. No matter which way you look at it, he **** up royally.

Nothing to suggest Masai tried to build a team around Pascal. In fact, it was the opposite. Every year since the Tampa season, Masai was rumoured to be after franchise players like Giannis, KD and Dame. In 2021 he also drafted Scottie instead of players that would have fit much better around Pascal, OG and Fred. I’m sure we are all glad he drafted Scottie.

I’m sure we could’ve got more for him last year. According to Lowe, the offers were only marginally better though. The offers for OG last year were significantly worse than what we got this year. If the offers were so underwhelming then it made a lot more sense to roll with the same core and rely on players like Scottie and Gradey to develop into good-great players.

[DG88]

I find it funny that the same posters who wanted Siakam traded for years and the ones now upset we did not get enough for him. Almost like nothing we do will ever satisfy them

I think the expectation that we'd get a haul for a 2x All NBA player, 1x NBA Champion and legit second option player. Also the OG haul didn't help either. So getting picks in crappy draft with protections plus but players is quite underwhelming based on Siakam's perceived value. The issue with Siakam is that there are only a few teams that makes sense for him on top of that he was going to be a free agent this summer, which limits his value. It would have made more sense to have traded him last year or in the summer. It also wasn't only this forum but even the media said we waited too long to get max value for Siakam.

[KL78192020]

What trade option for Pascal was better? I'll wait,...that's right you don't know. Neither do I. I believe it wasn't nearly as big as many of you assumed it to have been. And many are not considering salary. The Pascal trade was a win salary wise in a tight financial market. Potentially. The Poeltl trade I do not like either. Yet lets not forget Birch's final season wasn't dumped. Following the NHL and it's hard cap structure shows the importance of financial flexibility and the cost to acquire it.

Don't put yourself in quite literally the worst bargaining position possible, and maybe you extract more value. Wild concept. Keep dealing from a position of disadvantage, and yeah even the rumoured trades will look bad.

I agree that Siakams value was greatly overstated by a lot of fans, but suggesting that what we got for him was ok, because it was the best possible return is nonsense, when the reason it was such a bad return was due to poor management.

I've said it before and I will say it again, Masai was either wrong building a team with Siakam being "the guy" for 4 years, or Siakam had value and he ruined it and was stuck with a bad trade return. No matter which way you look at it, he **** up royally.

Nothing to suggest Masai tried to build a team around Pascal. In fact, it was the opposite. Every year since the Tampa season, Masai was rumoured to be after franchise players like Giannis, KD and Dame. In 2021 he also drafted Scottie instead of players that would have fit much better around Pascal, OG and Fred. I’m sure we are all glad he drafted Scottie.

I’m sure we could’ve got more for him last year. According to Lowe, the offers were only marginally better though. The offers for OG last year were significantly worse than what we got this year. If the offers were so underwhelming then it made a lot more sense to roll with the same core and rely on players like Scottie and Gradey to develop into good-great players.

Hey remember two years ago when you said this team was a perennial contender and not a lottery team and would make fun of anyone on the board who thought otherwise! lol good times.

[dagger]

I find it funny that the same posters who wanted Siakam traded for years and the ones now upset we did not get enough for him. Almost like nothing we do will ever satisfy them

I think the expectation that we'd get a haul for a 2x All NBA player, 1x NBA Champion and legit second option player. Also the OG haul didn't help either. So getting picks in crappy draft with protections plus but players is quite underwhelming based on Siakam's perceived value. The issue with Siakam is that there are only a few teams that makes sense for him on top of that he was going to be a free agent this summer, which limits his value. It would have made more sense to have traded him last year or in the summer. It also wasn't only this forum but even the media said we waited too long to get max value for Siakam.

Actually, Barrett + Quickley + 31st pick for OG is not a bad haul, especially considering that a re-signed Quickley plus Barrett's known salary plus a million or two for the 31st pick isn't more than it will cost NYK to re-sign OG for the 50-60 games a season he is healthy. If some day, OG is a pillar in a NYK championship round finalist, it might seem like we came up short but right now it isn't a bad return. And Quickley and the 31st pick guy are probably the only upsiders in the trade.

[PD28]

Pacers also looking like they added basically nothing

They would have been right effed if Siakam wasn't there.

Pacers overachieved due to Haliburton's hot start. The addition of Siakam hasn't been able to mask the drop off from that Hali hot start. Siakam isn't as impactful as some believed.

[YogurtProducer]

I find it funny that the same posters who wanted Siakam traded for years and the ones now upset we did not get enough for him. Almost like nothing we do will ever satisfy them

I think the expectation that we'd get a haul for a 2x All NBA player, 1x NBA Champion and legit second option player. Also the OG haul didn't help either. So getting picks in crappy draft with protections plus but players is quite underwhelming based on Siakam's perceived value. The issue with Siakam is that there are only a few teams that makes sense for him on top of that he was going to be a free agent this summer, which limits his value. It would have made more sense to have traded him last year or in the summer. It also wasn't only this forum but even the media said we waited too long to get max value for Siakam.

The media also said that we did not get any better offers last year either though.

I think there was just a huge disconnect here. People who wanted to trade Siakam (and spammed it here everyday for 12 months) had it in their mind that we were going to get multiple picks and lottery picks on top of that. That was never realistic and was always a pipe dream.

I don't think if we trade Siakam 12 months ago the returns would have been any better - what exactly what out there that was any different?

[YogurtProducer]

Pacers also looking like they added basically nothing

They would have been right effed if Siakam wasn't there.

Pacers overachieved due to Haliburton's hot start. The addition of Siakam hasn't been able to mask the drop off from that Hali hot start. Siakam isn't as impactful as some believed.

Pacers were 24-17 before the trade
Pacers are 17-16 since Siakam arrived

Considering that Haliburton has only averaged 16/9 since Siakam arrived compared to 24/13 before shows me Siakam has done a pretty nice job of keeping that team afloat. Think about that - Haliburton is providing 8 less points, 4 less assists (so at least 8 more points there) and doing it on worse efficicency. Think about that - Haliburton has decreased his output by 16 points.

Without Siakam there they probably are like 5 games worse in that span.

[Childs]

I find it funny that the same posters who wanted Siakam traded for years and the ones now upset we did not get enough for him. Almost like nothing we do will ever satisfy them

I think the expectation that we'd get a haul for a 2x All NBA player, 1x NBA Champion and legit second option player. Also the OG haul didn't help either. So getting picks in crappy draft with protections plus but players is quite underwhelming based on Siakam's perceived value. The issue with Siakam is that there are only a few teams that makes sense for him on top of that he was going to be a free agent this summer, which limits his value. It would have made more sense to have traded him last year or in the summer. It also wasn't only this forum but even the media said we waited too long to get max value for Siakam.

The media also said that we did not get any better offers last year either though.

I think there was just a huge disconnect here. People who wanted to trade Siakam (and spammed it here everyday for 12 months) had it in their mind that we were going to get multiple picks and lottery picks on top of that. That was never realistic and was always a pipe dream.

I don't think if we trade Siakam 12 months ago the returns would have been any better - what exactly what out there that was any different?

We don't know. But I think an extra year with an All-NBA player would likely net you more. I remember after the Siakam trade, during Masai's press conference, that he admitted he was not looking seriously for trades as he wanted to keep the group together. We had an All NBA player in Pascal, an All star in Fred, and a defensive player in OG, hence they did the Poetl deal, and he wanted to give them a chance despite how poorly they were doing last year before all star break.

Masai and Bobby would never publicly admit there were better offers last year. That's career suicide.

Also if you already have that mindset to keep everyone, how serious are looking at trades? Unless it was something completely one sided, like SGA or Luka for Pascal.

[YogurtProducer]

I think the expectation that we'd get a haul for a 2x All NBA player, 1x NBA Champion and legit second option player. Also the OG haul didn't help either. So getting picks in crappy draft with protections plus but players is quite underwhelming based on Siakam's perceived value. The issue with Siakam is that there are only a few teams that makes sense for him on top of that he was going to be a free agent this summer, which limits his value. It would have made more sense to have traded him last year or in the summer. It also wasn't only this forum but even the media said we waited too long to get max value for Siakam.

The media also said that we did not get any better offers last year either though.

I think there was just a huge disconnect here. People who wanted to trade Siakam (and spammed it here everyday for 12 months) had it in their mind that we were going to get multiple picks and lottery picks on top of that. That was never realistic and was always a pipe dream.

I don't think if we trade Siakam 12 months ago the returns would have been any better - what exactly what out there that was any different?

We don't know. But think an extra year with an All-NBA player would likely net you more. I remember after the Siakam trade, during Masai's press conference, that he admitted he was not looking seriously for trades as he wanted to keep the group together. We had an All NBA player in Pascal, an All star in Fred, and a defensive player in OG, hence they did the Poetl deal, cause he wanted to give them a chance despite how poorly they were doing last year before all star break.

If you already have that mindset, how serious are looking at trades? Unless it was something completely one sided, like SGA or Luka for Pascal.

I think we vastly oversell how much 1 extra year of control would bring value in a trade. Being a UFA is not as big of a risk as it once was as guys don't jump ship that often anymore.

Reality is that most teams don't trade good players on deals with term, and when it does it usually is because their team is downright terrible (Beal, Dame, Siakam) when the trades happen.

[Johnny Bball]

Pacers also looking like they added basically nothing

They would have been right effed if Siakam wasn't there.

Pacers overachieved due to Haliburton's hot start. The addition of Siakam hasn't been able to mask the drop off from that Hali hot start. Siakam isn't as impactful as some believed.

Sure he is. Mathurin is out, Hield and Brown got traded, Haliburton and Nesmith are currently playing just awful. Siakam and Turner are the only two actually doing what they are supposed to.

You just want it to be that Siakam sucked?

[Childs]

The media also said that we did not get any better offers last year either though.

I think there was just a huge disconnect here. People who wanted to trade Siakam (and spammed it here everyday for 12 months) had it in their mind that we were going to get multiple picks and lottery picks on top of that. That was never realistic and was always a pipe dream.

I don't think if we trade Siakam 12 months ago the returns would have been any better - what exactly what out there that was any different?

We don't know. But think an extra year with an All-NBA player would likely net you more. I remember after the Siakam trade, during Masai's press conference, that he admitted he was not looking seriously for trades as he wanted to keep the group together. We had an All NBA player in Pascal, an All star in Fred, and a defensive player in OG, hence they did the Poetl deal, cause he wanted to give them a chance despite how poorly they were doing last year before all star break.

If you already have that mindset, how serious are looking at trades? Unless it was something completely one sided, like SGA or Luka for Pascal.

I think we vastly oversell how much 1 extra year of control would bring value in a trade. Being a UFA is not as big of a risk as it once was as guys don't jump ship that often anymore.

Reality is that most teams don't trade good players on deals with term, and when it does it usually is because their team is downright terrible (Beal, Dame, Siakam) when the trades happen.

Or when a team is maxed on what it can do. Like the Jazz with Gobert and Mitchell. Last year was the last dying breath of an era of Raptors basketball, but Masai and Bobby wanted to prolong it, rather than see the writing on the wall. At the end of the day, we don't know. An extra year on an All NBA player is likely to net you more. But like I said, it would suicidal for Bobby and Masai to say they were better offers last year. They will never publicly admit that.

Would a trade last year for Pascal be as good as the OG trade? I have doubts of that. But I would think it would be better than the rift raff underwhelming players we have now.

[Scase]

What trade option for Pascal was better? I'll wait,...that's right you don't know. Neither do I. I believe it wasn't nearly as big as many of you assumed it to have been. And many are not considering salary. The Pascal trade was a win salary wise in a tight financial market. Potentially. The Poeltl trade I do not like either. Yet lets not forget Birch's final season wasn't dumped. Following the NHL and it's hard cap structure shows the importance of financial flexibility and the cost to acquire it.

Don't put yourself in quite literally the worst bargaining position possible, and maybe you extract more value. Wild concept. Keep dealing from a position of disadvantage, and yeah even the rumoured trades will look bad.

I agree that Siakams value was greatly overstated by a lot of fans, but suggesting that what we got for him was ok, because it was the best possible return is nonsense, when the reason it was such a bad return was due to poor management.

I've said it before and I will say it again, Masai was either wrong building a team with Siakam being "the guy" for 4 years, or Siakam had value and he ruined it and was stuck with a bad trade return. No matter which way you look at it, he **** up royally.

that may sound too harsh
not the best trade, but the media is pointing out is not as bad it seem
it be nice to get a blue-chip prospect tho
the trade offer from hawks wasn't necessarily better as aj griffin has really gone poorly
de'andre hunter be nice though

Thing is that, raps had to make this trade to move on with the Scottie Barnes era.
sure they could had traded pascal in 2023 deadline but scottie didn't take that jump yet

Harsh or not, it's what transpired. Waiting for Scottie to take the leap is a horribly flawed option to choose. Everyone and their mother knew that, that core was not going anywhere with Siakam at the helm. If Scottie didn't take a leap, well then the team is bad anyways, and we get a decent draft pick to build off of. Without Siakam, we don't trade for Jak, we aren't handcuffed on tanking, and we likely get a better haul.

Either way it was poorly timed, and we're behind by at least a year because of it. Masai shouldn't need 2 years of evaluation to end up with a 28th pick, a 16th-ish pick, and a likely 20ish pick next year, as a return.

The cascading impacts of not trading him have been pretty far reaching at this point, lower return, trade for Jak wouldn't have happened, etc.

[JRoy]

Don't put yourself in quite literally the worst bargaining position possible, and maybe you extract more value. Wild concept. Keep dealing from a position of disadvantage, and yeah even the rumoured trades will look bad.

I agree that Siakams value was greatly overstated by a lot of fans, but suggesting that what we got for him was ok, because it was the best possible return is nonsense, when the reason it was such a bad return was due to poor management.

I've said it before and I will say it again, Masai was either wrong building a team with Siakam being "the guy" for 4 years, or Siakam had value and he ruined it and was stuck with a bad trade return. No matter which way you look at it, he **** up royally.

Nothing to suggest Masai tried to build a team around Pascal. In fact, it was the opposite. Every year since the Tampa season, Masai was rumoured to be after franchise players like Giannis, KD and Dame. In 2021 he also drafted Scottie instead of players that would have fit much better around Pascal, OG and Fred. I’m sure we are all glad he drafted Scottie.

I’m sure we could’ve got more for him last year. According to Lowe, the offers were only marginally better though. The offers for OG last year were significantly worse than what we got this year. If the offers were so underwhelming then it made a lot more sense to roll with the same core and rely on players like Scottie and Gradey to develop into good-great players.

Hey remember two years ago when you said this team was a perennial contender and not a lottery team and would make fun of anyone on the board who thought otherwise! lol good times.

Long bois

[Scase]

What trade option for Pascal was better? I'll wait,...that's right you don't know. Neither do I. I believe it wasn't nearly as big as many of you assumed it to have been. And many are not considering salary. The Pascal trade was a win salary wise in a tight financial market. Potentially. The Poeltl trade I do not like either. Yet lets not forget Birch's final season wasn't dumped. Following the NHL and it's hard cap structure shows the importance of financial flexibility and the cost to acquire it.

Don't put yourself in quite literally the worst bargaining position possible, and maybe you extract more value. Wild concept. Keep dealing from a position of disadvantage, and yeah even the rumoured trades will look bad.

I agree that Siakams value was greatly overstated by a lot of fans, but suggesting that what we got for him was ok, because it was the best possible return is nonsense, when the reason it was such a bad return was due to poor management.

I've said it before and I will say it again, Masai was either wrong building a team with Siakam being "the guy" for 4 years, or Siakam had value and he ruined it and was stuck with a bad trade return. No matter which way you look at it, he **** up royally.

Nothing to suggest Masai tried to build a team around Pascal. In fact, it was the opposite. Every year since the Tampa season, Masai was rumoured to be after franchise players like Giannis, KD and Dame. In 2021 he also drafted Scottie instead of players that would have fit much better around Pascal, OG and Fred. I’m sure we are all glad he drafted Scottie.

I’m sure we could’ve got more for him last year. According to Lowe, the offers were only marginally better though. The offers for OG last year were significantly worse than what we got this year. If the offers were so underwhelming then it made a lot more sense to roll with the same core and rely on players like Scottie and Gradey to develop into good-great players.

I very specifically didn't say he built around him for a reason. He built a team with Siakam as the "the guy", he just didn't build a particularly complimentary team. Using the rumours of going after Giannis/KD/Dame as an excuse is ridiculous, every single team possible is rumoured to go after those players.

As I've said before, not trading Siakam isn't just about the return improving, but rather the cascading impacts on the future of the team. Trade him sooner, the team gets a lower floor and in position in place for a much better pick, we don't trade for Jak and aren't handcuffed with what to do, and Scottie gets his primary option experience a year sooner.

Retaining Siakam was just kicking the can down the road another year with Masai hoping for another Kawhi type trade, despite that being virtually impossible. Masai has plenty of strengths as a FO person, but evaluating for too long is one of his glaring weaknesses.

[DG88]

I find it funny that the same posters who wanted Siakam traded for years and the ones now upset we did not get enough for him. Almost like nothing we do will ever satisfy them

I think the expectation that we'd get a haul for a 2x All NBA player, 1x NBA Champion and legit second option player. Also the OG haul didn't help either. So getting picks in crappy draft with protections plus but players is quite underwhelming based on Siakam's perceived value. The issue with Siakam is that there are only a few teams that makes sense for him on top of that he was going to be a free agent this summer, which limits his value. It would have made more sense to have traded him last year or in the summer. It also wasn't only this forum but even the media said we waited too long to get max value for Siakam.

Actually, Barrett + Quickley + 31st pick for OG is not a bad haul, especially considering that a re-signed Quickley plus Barrett's known salary plus a million or two for the 31st pick isn't more than it will cost NYK to re-sign OG for the 50-60 games a season he is healthy. If some day, OG is a pillar in a NYK championship round finalist, it might seem like we came up short but right now it isn't a bad return. And Quickley and the 31st pick guy are probably the only upsiders in the trade.

Sorry if it wasn't clear but that's what I was inferring with the OG trade. That we'd get good value back for a Pascal trade. It set the precedent.