Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[Basketball_Jones]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

[Tor_Raps]

All some of us have said is that if Siakam is your best player, your team is going nowhere. He is clearly Indy's best player (and was fantastic last night), and that team is going nowhere. Yeah yeah, Haliburton's injured blah blah blah. They better hope they nail the eventual trade to land a 3rd star because said player won't sign there willingly (not bashing Indy here, we are in the same boat), and that owner will not go into the tax.

The hilarious part of this thread is that this was ultimately reflected in his market value.

Whereas OG had a valuable role to fit on any contending team that was unique (i.e. some of the best D in the league + efficient 3p shooting), Pascal didn't quite attract as much.

I agree that you can criticize the timing of the deal and not selling on Pascal a year earlier (though I'd argue teams aren't stupid and a similar assessment would've been made), but to suggest the FO "could have done better" in the same trade window that saw another deal that returned great value is just funny.

You clearly haven't been listening to what 95% of the people upset with the front office since 2020 have been saying. It's clearly the timing of the deal. You don't get an excuse this when you are the person who put yourself in that position in the first place. Your job as a front office is to determine how to maximize the value of your assets.

Now obviously there are some risks involved like trading for a Kawhi and having him walk away when you're in a championship window. But when you're not in that window, your job should be how to best get back there. Crazy that this is all Masai talks about so he talks the talk but hasn't clearly walked the walk since 2020.

We are all raptor fans so we all want the same thing. Let's hope this offseason he begins to make those moves to make the Raptors great again.

[Tor_Raps]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

Like if the alternative was taking the deal we got for him, of course I would have kept Siakam. I always maintained to re-sign him and then look to trade him when you're in a position of strength later if needed. Clearly it was needed lol.

[Badonkadonk]

All some of us have said is that if Siakam is your best player, your team is going nowhere. He is clearly Indy's best player (and was fantastic last night), and that team is going nowhere. Yeah yeah, Haliburton's injured blah blah blah. They better hope they nail the eventual trade to land a 3rd star because said player won't sign there willingly (not bashing Indy here, we are in the same boat), and that owner will not go into the tax.

The hilarious part of this thread is that this was ultimately reflected in his market value.

Whereas OG had a valuable role to fit on any contending team that was unique (i.e. some of the best D in the league + efficient 3p shooting), Pascal didn't quite attract as much.

I agree that you can criticize the timing of the deal and not selling on Pascal a year earlier (though I'd argue teams aren't stupid and a similar assessment would've been made), but to suggest the FO "could have done better" in the same trade window that saw another deal that returned great value is just funny.

You clearly haven't been listening to what 95% of the people upset with the front office since 2020 have been saying. It's clearly the timing of the deal. You don't get an excuse this when you are the person who put yourself in that position in the first place. Your job as a front office is to determine how to maximize the value of your assets.

Now obviously there are some risks involved like trading for a Kawhi and having him walk away when you're in a championship window. But when you're not in that window, your job should be how to best get back there. Crazy that this is all Masai talks about so he talks the talk but hasn't clearly walked the walk since 2020.

We are all raptor fans so we all want the same thing. Let's hope this offseason he begins to make those moves to make the Raptors great again.

Yeah I have, and some posters are indeed that delusional. Not going to get into pointless calling out of names (and I'm probably missing some since I blocked many of those posters).

[C_Money]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

I actually thought we were in a position to be a winning team before we traded him.

Quickley
Barrett
Barnes
Siakam
Poeltl

Thats a very solid starting lineup.

[HumbleRen]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

I actually thought we were in a position to be a winning team before we traded him.

Quickley
Barrett
Barnes
Siakam
Poeltl

Thats a very solid starting lineup.

We would be one of the most expensive teams in the NBA with the ceiling of a 6th seed while making Scottie play out of position.

Heavy pass on that.

[Tor_Raps]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

I actually thought we were in a position to be a winning team before we traded him.

Quickley
Barrett
Barnes
Siakam
Poeltl

Thats a very solid starting lineup.

Ya, they just needed better overall depth. Siakam played with a team that had near 0 shooting.

Since we didn't have our own pick, thought it was just better to re-sign him and convey the pick this year. Then if we wanted to tank, trade Siakam in the offseason where you'd get a better return and also have control of all your picks.

[DelAbbot]

The OG trade really saved Masai and Bobby. It was a long list of L’s before that and the fanbase was at a boiling point.

You don't get to where we are currently by not having a bunch of Ls regardless of what some homers like to say. We tanked in a horrible draft without control of our damn pick. If the lottery doesn't go our way, the noise will just get louder lol.

I'm still trying to understand what Masai's end game was with Siakam. Calling the man selfish, knowing Siakam wanted the max but not offering it to him... like did he not care to maximize any return for him or was he OK with letting him walk like Fred/Lowry? Just horrible stuff from a guy we've known to be elite at his job.

I think Masai called Siakam selfish in the preseason after Siakam sabotage trade talks in the summer (Siakam wanted to stay here on a max)

[ArthurVandelay]

People need to realize Siakam never had the trade value many, including me, thought.

Three 1sts and no bad money was best case scenario, unless you wanted Hunter and AJ, or Bagley and Hield. Even if he was traded at deadline in 2023, he wasn’t getting Mathurin or the Pacers lotto pick.

Then you have to acknowledge Siakam and his agent weren’t playing ball with Raptors. He couldn’t be traded for max value because he wasn’t willing to extend or resign with most teams.

Then you say well he shoulda been traded after Kawhi left…right the MIP in the last year of a rookie deal, and led team to best winning % in team history.

Well he shoulda been traded in 2020…right after he blew up his trade value in the bubble.

Well he shoulda been traded in 2021…right after he blew up his shoulder.

Well he shoulda been traded in 2022…well maybe, but the 48 win season had then thinking they could build.

Well he should have been traded in 2023…yeah he probably should have but they traded for a C and gave that core one last shot.

Well he should have been traded in 2024…he was.


Need to see what Poeltl returns if anything. But the issue isn’t what Siakam returned, it was waiting an extra year and trading for Poeltl.

[DelAbbot]

All some of us have said is that if Siakam is your best player, your team is going nowhere. He is clearly Indy's best player (and was fantastic last night), and that team is going nowhere. Yeah yeah, Haliburton's injured blah blah blah. They better hope they nail the eventual trade to land a 3rd star because said player won't sign there willingly (not bashing Indy here, we are in the same boat), and that owner will not go into the tax.

The hilarious part of this thread is that this was ultimately reflected in his market value.

Whereas OG had a valuable role to fit on any contending team that was unique (i.e. some of the best D in the league + efficient 3p shooting), Pascal didn't quite attract as much.

I agree that you can criticize the timing of the deal and not selling on Pascal a year earlier (though I'd argue teams aren't stupid and a similar assessment would've been made), but to suggest the FO "could have done better" in the same trade window that saw another deal that returned great value is just funny.

Siakam's trade value was at peak after 2021/2022 season where we won 48 games and he was the best player earning all-nba selection.

At that moment Masai wanted to erect a statue of Siakam, so probably pipe dreams of trading Siakam then.

[Tor_Raps]

The OG trade really saved Masai and Bobby. It was a long list of L’s before that and the fanbase was at a boiling point.

You don't get to where we are currently by not having a bunch of Ls regardless of what some homers like to say. We tanked in a horrible draft without control of our damn pick. If the lottery doesn't go our way, the noise will just get louder lol.

I'm still trying to understand what Masai's end game was with Siakam. Calling the man selfish, knowing Siakam wanted the max but not offering it to him... like did he not care to maximize any return for him or was he OK with letting him walk like Fred/Lowry? Just horrible stuff from a guy we've known to be elite at his job.

I think Masai called Siakam selfish in the preseason after Siakam sabotage trade talks in the summer (Siakam wanted to stay here on a max)

That would be ridiculous. It's Siakams right to want to test free agency if Masai didn't want to re-sign him. He doesn't have to re-sign with any team just because Masai trades him there. It's like Siakam calling Masai selfish for not wanting to re-sign him so he can trade him lol.

[docholliday99]

Isn't this thread wildly premature? Still don't know the end value of the trade, but to me, 3frps and a player that could possibly net a 4th seems right for Pascal.

[Fairview4Life]

Huh? Read my post again. I said at the time they traded for Poeltl. They were clearly banking that having an NBA player at C and Scottie not continuing to play poorly would get the team back to the oh so lofty heights of the 48 win previous season. That obviously didn't happen, and Fred walking was a decent piece of that. It's hardly some crazy mental gymnastics to think that this year was not the most probable outcome when they made the Poeltl trade.

This year was very, very foreseeable. We're going to act like it was a surprise that they fired Nurse and cleaned house?

At the same time they made the Poeltl trade, they were kicking the tires on selling off vets. Who was Masai calling selfish if not some of those very vets? It was clearly a pivotal moment, either you go strong with the core or blow it up. The core was not some young group on their rookie deals who needed a couple years to gel. The idea that a lower-tier starting C was going to fix all the problems with depth, shooting and guard play was absolute fantasy.

I didn't say it was going to fix all their problems. The previous season they won more games without an actual C. Trading for one and thinking Scottie wouldn't continue to be be bad at basketball and it's reasonable to assume they're back to winning again. Trading for Dame would have solved a number of their problems all at once but it turns out the Blazers didn't want our **** offer and tanking was probably a better option than going all in on the core.

[MiamiSPX]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

Like if the alternative was taking the deal we got for him, of course I would have kept Siakam. I always maintained to re-sign him and then look to trade him when you're in a position of strength later if needed. Clearly it was needed lol.

It's obvious Masai wanted no part of maxing him and apparently told him that. Of course we can debate whether he waited too long. I was ranting for months about going into the season with 3 of your top 6 as UFAs and look what happened. I hope GT Sr. spills the beans again on if that made things awkward/tense/weird in the locker room.

But NOT paying him 250M is part of the return on that deal, and is absolutely the right call. Like Humble Ren already pointed out, we would have been close to the tax for a team going nowhere.

Does Siakam have the counting stats, and can point to comparables, to warrant a max deal? Yes.
Will that max deal handcuff your team in building a contender? Also yes (IMO).

I know I'm alone here but I wouldn't rule out Indy's pick in 2026 potentially being good. They are not a destination market, their owner won't go into the tax, and Haliburton is on that OG trajectory for injuries. His games played leaves a lot to be desired, and he would/should have missed more games this season if we are to believe everyone that's making excuses for Indy. They're also about to have 90-100M locked up in 2 players where we know firsthand one of them cannot be a true #1, and the jury is still out on the other.

[youreachiteach]

It's obvious the front office banked on Pascal and OG's loyalty to help them navigate things. I think the same thing happened with Fred. Unfortunately, once they fired Nurse, they lost any semblance of a sense of "competition", and all the players wanted out. Haliburton was in Pascal's ear and the Knicks were in OG's. Fred just got the bag. It was very clear in the summer after the firing/change of Fred and culture that the team needed to trade Pascal at a minimum. Frankly I think Fred, OG and Pascal learned from Nurse and Kawhi that players are basically hired guns. Nurse gave them all the power and when he left (and Fred left) that vacuum could not be filled.

They tried to trade OG last year and Indy did the same "three picks in a bad draft" offer so that wasn't enough. They tried to trade Pascal but he blocked it (twice) to ensure whatever place he went he would go on his own terms. I really think you can trace Pascal's general malaise and lack of defense to the bubble--where he got blamed for everything. He essentially came back and said "You want a first option, fine. But I'm not playing d anymore--I can't do both." Nurse enabled him and he went for the money.

By the middle of the year, the front office is stuck and has to move quickly, They were fortunate that New York had enough depth to "give away" requisite value for OG (frankly, I think we won that trade--despite OG's defensive prowess). Once it got too late, all they had left was the same Indy deal with us over a barrel, as the front office had no appetite to pay a secondary or tertiary star like Pascal. To be honest, I think Indy loses first round anyway and then has capped their ability to improve or add anyone significant.

[C_Money]

Really sold low on Siakam. I still kind of wish we kept him and were able to re-sign him to be honest.

I actually thought we were in a position to be a winning team before we traded him.

Quickley
Barrett
Barnes
Siakam
Poeltl

Thats a very solid starting lineup.

We would be one of the most expensive teams in the NBA with the ceiling of a 6th seed while making Scottie play out of position.

Heavy pass on that.

What’s the alternative? We’re currently looking for somebody to fill the hole left by Siakam. But we already had him.

You’re thinking we can find somebody better than Siakam is what you’re saying. That’s gonna be tough.

[sidsid]

I'm sorry, what? The '23 squad muddled along all season, they were 10th in the East before trading for Poeltl and 9th afterward. None of their young players took a huge step forward that year. It was a squad Masai himself labelled selfish, led by a coach that they were heavily leaning towards firing, veteran UFAs that wouldn't be extended (either by player's choice or the team's), severe depth issues that never got fixed. To top it all off, they were also kicking the tires about selling off at the same time they decided to trade for Poeltl.

No, nobody in their right mind should have been surprised that it could end up being a lotto pick.

Late to this one, but the entire concept of us being good hinged on the FO being confident that they could keep two players (OG and Pascal) entering their final year before UFA. During a year where the locker room was a mess between vets and the cornerstones of the future for the franchise (OG and Barnes). One of those vets who was a UFA at the end of that very season.

The idea that Jak would single handedly change this by fixing those divisions and, absurdly, thinking that he'd raise the ceiling was known to be wrong by anyone who watches this team critically and was immediately disproven by losing to the Bulls in a coin flip game between two mediocre teams.

It's also a lot of revisionist history to say that most believed Barnes was in a slump. Those of us who knew the issues were bad coaching, roles and toxicity required that those elements be removed from the team for the blossoming to happen. They are interconnected and can't be factored without it.

But ultimately, the reason you can't be certain you'd end up tanking the latter half of the season is the scenario where you are not willing to pay your only star player, and the only thing making you a good team on paper.

You cannot trade a low protection pick if that is in the universe of possibilities you are contemplating. Not on some hail Mary nostalgia Jak trade.

It's really a simple concept. The idea was to bring the team back. They brought Jak in because he was part of that bench mob and was familiar with the team and players. He is also Pascal's good friend, which would help in re-signing him. The logic is sound.

What was unexpected was Fred leaving. That's what screwed everything up.

PG Fred/(? with MLE - likely Dennis anyway)
SG OG/Gary
SF Scottie/Gradey
PF Pascal/Boucher
C Poeltl/(Koloko - before his respiratory injury)

Looks like a solid group with depth and youth. Based on statistical projections, that team would have been in the playoffs for sure, and we would've been happy to lose our pick in a trash draft, given the trajectory of the team and its future FAs. The aim here would be to maximize Scottie's rookie scale contract to stay under the cap for a year and then re-boot this offseason, ideally with both OG and Pascal re-signing as well.

You can't trade a pick like that if you have scenarios where you are unwilling to commit to winning. And this isn't a hypothetical, because throughout the Lillard trade scenario and the FVV FA, we didn't commit to signing Siakam. This isn't something FOs do on a whim, they have a plan a, b, c, etc. way ahead of time. And if one of those plans is trading Siakam there is no situation that allows you to be careless with the lottery pick asset.

And we were in the exact same boat with Fred two years ago as we were this year. In the 5/6 pick range with a choice to pivot to a tank or push for the play in while beating up on tanking teams and losing to real teams with something to play for. The difference this year is we chose the former after injuries/trades forced it on the FO. While Fred was just on a similar team this year with the exact same outcome as our Bulls loss year; beating up on tanking teams at the end while cratering back to earth hard against real teams. It's all fools gold that anyone paying attention can see and should be factored into your decisions about what to do.

The last 3 years of our teams have been the exact same: 3 years of mediocrity with a play in level ceiling with the only rational move being to pivot to going for a generational talent when the chance came and we zagged at the exact wrong time. The FO simply did not properly assess what this team was and we're paying for it now.

[youreachiteach]

He doesn't shoot well enough to be a three. I know that he's playing that on the Pacers but he's basically an undersized four who can't guard his position properly. He'd be better than what we have now--but at a ridiculous price point.

[Basketball_Jones]

It's obvious the front office banked on Pascal and OG's loyalty to help them navigate things. I think the same thing happened with Fred. Unfortunately, once they fired Nurse, they lost any semblance of a sense of "competition", and all the players wanted out. Haliburton was in Pascal's ear and the Knicks were in OG's. Fred just got the bag. It was very clear in the summer after the firing/change of Fred and culture that the team needed to trade Pascal at a minimum. Frankly I think Fred, OG and Pascal learned from Nurse and Kawhi that players are basically hired guns. Nurse gave them all the power and when he left (and Fred left) that vacuum could not be filled.

They tried to trade OG last year and Indy did the same "three picks in a bad draft" offer so that wasn't enough. They tried to trade Pascal but he blocked it (twice) to ensure whatever place he went he would go on his own terms. I really think you can trace Pascal's general malaise and lack of defense to the bubble--where he got blamed for everything. He essentially came back and said "You want a first option, fine. But I'm not playing d anymore--I can't do both." Nurse enabled him and he went for the money.

By the middle of the year, the front office is stuck and has to move quickly, They were fortunate that New York had enough depth to "give away" requisite value for OG (frankly, I think we won that trade--despite OG's defensive prowess). Once it got too late, all they had left was the same Indy deal with us over a barrel, as the front office had no appetite to pay a secondary or tertiary star like Pascal. To be honest, I think Indy loses first round anyway and then has capped their ability to improve or add anyone significant.

Very good summary. I wouldn’t say Indy is cooked though. They didn’t give up any of their young talent and Hali is still very young. If he’s actually injured then we know what a healthy Haliburton looks like. He’s a first option Steph Curry almost type of player. He needs to prove that for an entire season though.

[Duffman100]

People need to realize Siakam never had the trade value many, including me, thought.
.

I really thought he had much more value. I was def wrong.