Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[James_Raptors]

By the way the, Grange is an idiot. He hated bringing in the 27 year old Poeltl, now he's lamenting the fact that they traded away a 30 year old Siakam looking for max. Even if the Raps got back a top 10 pick in the draft for Siakam, they still likely wouldn't have gotten a player as good as Siakam. That's what happens when you trade away proven vets for unproven prospects/picks. Siakam was a top 2-3 player from his draft class so even if the Raps got top dollar for him, they'd be hard pressed to replace him. That's what makes rebuilding hard. You need to hit on lower percentage assets when you gave away proven ones.

He's a talking head with an agenda.

[Brinbe]

The idea to trade Siakam is/was a sound one. It was always handing the keys to Scottie and that was tough/impossible with Siakam in-house, especially commanding what he'd make at max money/it being expensive to keep the team together. He also played Scottie's position, they played similar type of games and they probably weren't the best matches in-terms of your top two on the roster. There was just too much overlap and they probably weren't gonna lead the team to anything other than play-in status at best if they locked in on that core.

Of course, the timing/return/execution of that idea is questionable and we've truly been down/exhausted that deep well of discussion concerning the trade deadline that wasn't. What's done is done there and if people wanna complain about it from now until infinity, that's their right, I guess. But it's grating at this point.

Anyway, Kelly's looking like the best part of the return so far, and that's not really a great thing. If they whiff on this offseason/bruce brown being utilised to bring in a future asset/the pacers pick this year plus future pacers pick in 26, then it will obviously look really f'n bad.

But the verdict on all this stuff isn't be known till a few years from now at the earliest. And if we're still bad by then, there'll probably be a new front office in-house by then anyway.

The FO have def made a lot of questionable/bad decisions in the years since the Championship, I don't think anyone would argue differently, but they made the right move to pivot and IQ/RJ were genuinely good pick-ups for OG. I'd give them the next few years to see if they can right this ship or not.

[OakleyDokely]

How does this make him an idiot, he was right. The Jak trade was a bad trade, practically everyone aside from a select few agrees on that.

It was an overpay. We immediately went into a rebuild without our pick, and trading for him resulted in a net negative. You can **** on Grange for a fair amount of things, the Jak trade, is not one of them.

I'm not saying he's wrong about the Poeltl, I'm saying he's being ridiculous when he says the Raps aren't likely to replace Siakam once they dealt him. No **** Grange. Siakam was one of the best players from a pretty strong draft and he might end up better than everyone in this current draft. When you trade away great players, it's hard to replace him, but that's what rebuilding teams do when they're faced with paying max to a 30 year old.

I agree, I just thought it was odd to throw in the jak thing right after calling him stupid lol

It was just stupid to criticize a win now move (Poeltl), and then criticize a rebuilding move (Siakam).

You can argue that they didn't get enough for Siakam, but once they decided to move him, we have to realize that we're not getting back another player the caliber of Siakam. No team is trading a top 30 player for him, unless that player is old or has glaring faults. You'd have to hit on a draft pick or some prospect would have to take an unexpected jump, basically something unexpected would have to happen to get another top 30 player back. But the point of the Siakam trade was to gain more cap flexibility, bring in some cheaper, younger assets and rebuild.

[JB7]

The issue was never that Siakam wasn't a really good player and the expectations should never have been that by trading him you'd likely get a player as good back for him. Most of the time, when you trade away the best player in the deal, you aren't getting a player back that is his equal unless you fluke out with a draft pick.

This deal about about not paying him 50 mill a year for his 30-35 years when you aren't a contender and it's better to reset with cheaper, younger, more flexible assets.

I'm ok with this but what I'm pissed about is that our front office had all this time to make a decision and sat on their asses. The way they treated Siakam, a multi time all NBA and champion was deplorable. Bobby Webster who is supposed to be this cap genius had to know this was coming. They waited until they had no leverage and Siakam's value was at its lowest. I'm stunned we got the return for OG that we did. Siakam is a significantly better player than OG, should've gotten way more.

Masai and Bobby's track record of decisions post championship is a fireable offense. Their saving grace was nailing the Scottie pick.

We need to trade Siakam for AJ Griffen before it's too late! - PhilBlackson

Clearly OG and Pascal's names were floated for trades for over a year, going back to the previous trade deadline, and probably sooner. Do you think Masai would have had an offer for Pascal that was much better than he received, but he said no?

Pascal got them what the market said was his value, which was clearly worse than OG.

OG was moved first, probably because of the timing for the Knicks deal, but also to get OG off the market so that Pascal was the remaining option for teams interested in Raps players, which should increase his value. Clearly other GMs just didn't value Pascal.

[JB7]

George was 28, 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting and on the all D 1st team, he had 3 years left on his contract and trading for him is what Kawhi was demanding in order to sign with a team. Pascal was not on an all NBA team last season and probably won't be this year, and wasn't an all star this year, his contract was expiring, and he had already shot down trades to other teams in the summer with public comments about testing free agency and apparently was colluding behind the scenes with Halliburton to get to Indiana. That's a pretty large gap in circumstances.

Also just beyond that there seems to be a lot of reluctance from teams to trade big packages of picks anymore. That might change again but teams seem pretty gunshy now that the Suns are failing pretty spectacularly.

Yes, the PG deal cannot ignore the fact that the leverage OKC had was Kawhi wanting LAC to trade for PG, in order for Kawhi to sign, so the deal was essentially all of that (Galinari, SGA, 5 FRPs, and 2 FR swaps) for PG & Kawhi.

Wouldn't be surprised if Masai actually helped OKC fleece LAC by playing along like they might make a trade to acquire PG to satisfy Kawhi (OKC was floating trade scenarios with Raps to move PG here) because I'm sure Masai ultimately knew Kawhi wanted to go back to LA, and regardless of whatever deal he made, was not going to sign long-term with the Raps. But by Masai playing along forced LAC to toss more in the deal, under a tight deadline (FA signing period for Kawhi).

This.

Masai does mutual destruction well.

Lowry and fred signed poison pill contracts. Clips paid through the nose for paul.

The next will be OG and Pascal signing max deals.

[OakleyDokely]

The issue was never that Siakam wasn't a really good player and the expectations should never have been that by trading him you'd likely get a player as good back for him. Most of the time, when you trade away the best player in the deal, you aren't getting a player back that is his equal unless you fluke out with a draft pick.

This deal about about not paying him 50 mill a year for his 30-35 years when you aren't a contender and it's better to reset with cheaper, younger, more flexible assets.

I'm ok with this but what I'm pissed about is that our front office had all this time to make a decision and sat on their asses. The way they treated Siakam, a multi time all NBA and champion was deplorable. Bobby Webster who is supposed to be this cap genius had to know this was coming. They waited until they had no leverage and Siakam's value was at its lowest. I'm stunned we got the return for OG that we did. Siakam is a significantly better player than OG, should've gotten way more.

Masai and Bobby's track record of decisions post championship is a fireable offense. Their saving grace was nailing the Scottie pick.

We need to trade Siakam for AJ Griffen before it's too late! - PhilBlackson

I'm not really surprised OG got more, I even said it before they were both dealt. OG is younger, he will cost less and he's an easier fit for more NBA teams than Siakam.

Siakam is a tricky fit for most teams because he's an on ball player who needs the ball a lot, he doesn't work well off ball, and you're going to paying him close to 50 mill for his 30-35 years. OG's an easy fit for all 30 NBA teams because he hits 3s, he defends, he doesn't require touches and you'd be paying for his prime 27-31 years.

[brownbobcat]

Ah - so any players we did add "don't count" (because apparently we are supposed to get players for free?).

I think we are done here. These goalposts are not just shifting, they are turning into uprights.

How does trading a superior player/asset for a worse player/asset count as "adding", by anyone's definition?

The point of team-building to increase the talent level in the long term, not decrease it. It's absurd that I actually have to explain this to you.

[QingJames]

I'm glad Siakam is gone from a terrible fanbase that scapegoated him constantly, a PBOP that never believed in him and called him selfish (when he was the least selfish player on the team - along with Fred), and teammates that never tried to maximize Pascal's game. I am sure Indy fans will actually appreciate what a great player he is. Raptors have probably the single worst, most short-sighted, bandwagon-heavy fanbase in the entire NBA.

[QingJames]

This might be a hot take but I think this trade return wise is on par with the VC trade.

Mourning (never played)
Aaron and Eric Williams who were both totally useless.
2 1sts (one early one late 20s that they dealt)

vs

Bruce Brown (who at least showed up and could still be dealt)
Nwora (useless like Williams)
KO (useful vet)
Ochai (prospect)
2 1sts (one at 19, one will likely be in the same range)

The difference right now is the players we got back Brown, KO, Ochai are rotation players so it's not quite the same return wise.

Ochai is awful. He's 24 and can't defend; he will never be a rotation piece for a good team in the NBA. Brown has been terrible with the Raptors (not really his fault but not helping his value) and if there was no market for him this year, there is not going to be a market for him next year. KO is quite literally the only useful player we got back from this trade and he obviously is not going to be on the team long-term.

If the picks are busts, this will be indisputably the worst trade Masai has ever made, and may be one of the worst in NBA history.

[Duffman100]

This might be a hot take but I think this trade return wise is on par with the VC trade.

Mourning (never played)
Aaron and Eric Williams who were both totally useless.
2 1sts (one early one late 20s that they dealt)

vs

Bruce Brown (who at least showed up and could still be dealt)
Nwora (useless like Williams)
KO (useful vet)
Ochai (prospect)
2 1sts (one at 19, one will likely be in the same range)

The difference right now is the players we got back Brown, KO, Ochai are rotation players so it's not quite the same return wise.

Ochai is awful. He's 24 and can't defend; he will never be a rotation piece for a good team in the NBA. Brown has been terrible with the Raptors (not really his fault but not helping his value) and if there was no market for him this year, there is not going to be a market for him next year. KO is quite literally the only useful player we got back from this trade and he obviously is not going to be on the team long-term.

If the picks are busts, this will be indisputably the worst trade Masai has ever made, and may be one of the worst in NBA history.

Um what? Ochai is a great defender and easily our best POA defender on the team.

And this trade won't sniff the top 10 worst trades in NBA history. There are just too many bad trades that are so much worse than this.

[Fairview4Life]

Mourning (never played)
Aaron and Eric Williams who were both totally useless.
2 1sts (one early one late 20s that they dealt)

vs

Bruce Brown (who at least showed up and could still be dealt)
Nwora (useless like Williams)
KO (useful vet)
Ochai (prospect)
2 1sts (one at 19, one will likely be in the same range)

The difference right now is the players we got back Brown, KO, Ochai are rotation players so it's not quite the same return wise.

Ochai is awful. He's 24 and can't defend; he will never be a rotation piece for a good team in the NBA. Brown has been terrible with the Raptors (not really his fault but not helping his value) and if there was no market for him this year, there is not going to be a market for him next year. KO is quite literally the only useful player we got back from this trade and he obviously is not going to be on the team long-term.

If the picks are busts, this will be indisputably the worst trade Masai has ever made, and may be one of the worst in NBA history.

Um what? Ochai is a great defender and easily our best POA defender on the team.

And this trade won't sniff the top 10 worst trades in NBA history. There are just too many bad trades that are so much worse than this.

Ochai's problem is that I am not sure he made a single shot post trade.

[Duffman100]

Ochai is awful. He's 24 and can't defend; he will never be a rotation piece for a good team in the NBA. Brown has been terrible with the Raptors (not really his fault but not helping his value) and if there was no market for him this year, there is not going to be a market for him next year. KO is quite literally the only useful player we got back from this trade and he obviously is not going to be on the team long-term.

If the picks are busts, this will be indisputably the worst trade Masai has ever made, and may be one of the worst in NBA history.

Um what? Ochai is a great defender and easily our best POA defender on the team.

And this trade won't sniff the top 10 worst trades in NBA history. There are just too many bad trades that are so much worse than this.

Ochai's problem is that I am not sure he made a single shot post trade.

Cmon now, I can remember SOME shots being made.

But yeah, his shot is the problem not his defense.

[brownbobcat]

So every 6 years. One team on average gets 1 guy in the fringe. (We have one but it of course doesn’t count)

And this is the franchise altering atrocious management?

If your standard is the Washington Wizards, it's perfectly adequate.

I'll repeat the question you never answered - are you satisfied with play-in losses or do you consider that to be a disappointment?

You just commented about shifting goalposts and right here you’ve shifted goalposts.

My position has been the same all along. My standards for evaluating this team are not whatever the average team does. If it were, I'd be satisfied with a 41-41 play-in team that finds a diamond in the rough once every 6 years and turns a lottery pick into an expiring Poeltl during a clear rebuild scenario. If the team is not setting themselves up for sustained success, then I consider that to be "atrocious", "mediocre', "inadequate" - whatever words you want to use.

It's not good enough.
0 rotation players on this team from 6+ years of the MLE is not good enough.
1 Boucher every 6 years is not good enough.
2 All Stars turned into 2 mid/late FRPs, Agbaji, Brown and KO is not good enough.

Sorry, not sorry.

[vulture]

Um what? Ochai is a great defender and easily our best POA defender on the team.

And this trade won't sniff the top 10 worst trades in NBA history. There are just too many bad trades that are so much worse than this.

Ochai's problem is that I am not sure he made a single shot post trade.

Cmon now, I can remember SOME shots being made.

But yeah, his shot is the problem not his defense.

Duff he is so bad offensively that it will be hard to have him on the floor if he can’t dribble, pass or shoot.

I hope by some miracle that he can improve his offense this offseason because his defense is really good.

[Duffman100]

Ochai's problem is that I am not sure he made a single shot post trade.

Cmon now, I can remember SOME shots being made.

But yeah, his shot is the problem not his defense.

Duff he is so bad offensively that it will be hard to have him on the floor if he can’t dribble, pass or shoot.

I hope by some miracle that he can improve his offense this offseason because his defense is really good.

Oh yeah I'm aware. He's a good off ball cutter with good hops. If he can get his shot back up again, he can stay on the floor even if he can't dribble in the halfcourt or pass.

His shot is really all that matters this offseason. I'm sure everyone, including him, knows this.

[Scase]

I'm not saying he's wrong about the Poeltl, I'm saying he's being ridiculous when he says the Raps aren't likely to replace Siakam once they dealt him. No **** Grange. Siakam was one of the best players from a pretty strong draft and he might end up better than everyone in this current draft. When you trade away great players, it's hard to replace him, but that's what rebuilding teams do when they're faced with paying max to a 30 year old.

I agree, I just thought it was odd to throw in the jak thing right after calling him stupid lol

It was just stupid to criticize a win now move (Poeltl), and then criticize a rebuilding move (Siakam).

You can argue that they didn't get enough for Siakam, but once they decided to move him, we have to realize that we're not getting back another player the caliber of Siakam. No team is trading a top 30 player for him, unless that player is old or has glaring faults. You'd have to hit on a draft pick or some prospect would have to take an unexpected jump, basically something unexpected would have to happen to get another top 30 player back. But the point of the Siakam trade was to gain more cap flexibility, bring in some cheaper, younger assets and rebuild.

Ahhh I see what you were saying, yeah, kinda hypocritical.

[brownbobcat]

I think they were 16-12 with Poeltl last year. Not a championship squad obviously but still a decent team especially with a 21 year old Scottie who has a lot of untapped potential. Once they lost Fred, that was it though because the team wasn’t going anywhere with Dennis Schroder.

Obviously it's a better team with FVV instead of Schroder. But unless you actually think the correct decision was to max out FVV for a 40-ish win team and still be in the same situation with Siakam/OG hitting free agency, what are we even talking about?

I think the front office did the right thing. They chose not to max Fred. You keep acting like the front office wanted Fred back if he was maxed. Clearly they didn’t. They would’ve wanted him back on their terms. Likely 100 mil over 4.

No, I'm refuting the position that FVV leaving was this curveball that derailed an otherwise good path.

The only thing worse than him leaving for nothing would've been maxing him. It would have solved none of their key problems with Siakam/OG and introduced an albatross contract into the mix for a guy that didn't mesh well with their young star.

[Scase]

Um what? Ochai is a great defender and easily our best POA defender on the team.

And this trade won't sniff the top 10 worst trades in NBA history. There are just too many bad trades that are so much worse than this.

Ochai's problem is that I am not sure he made a single shot post trade.

Cmon now, I can remember SOME shots being made.

But yeah, his shot is the problem not his defense.

Outside of the paint, he actually only made 19 shots in 638min
Man, I didn't think it was that bad.

[Duffman100]

If your standard is the Washington Wizards, it's perfectly adequate.

I'll repeat the question you never answered - are you satisfied with play-in losses or do you consider that to be a disappointment?

You just commented about shifting goalposts and right here you’ve shifted goalposts.

My position has been the same all along. My standards for evaluating this team are not whatever the average team does. If it were, I'd be satisfied with a 41-41 play-in team that finds a diamond in the rough once every 6 years and turns a lottery pick into an expiring Poeltl during a clear rebuild scenario. If the team is not setting themselves up for sustained success, then I consider that to be "atrocious", "mediocre', "inadequate" - whatever words you want to use.

It's not good enough.
0 rotation players on this team from 6+ years of the MLE is not good enough.
1 Boucher every 6 years is not good enough.
2 All Stars turned into 2 mid/late FRPs, Agbaji, Brown and KO is not good enough.

Sorry, not sorry.

And the conversation wasn't about whether we're satisfied with the current situation. That is shifting the goalposts.

The conversation is whether they are atrocious finding players amongst the fringes. And to evaluate atrocious you have see how other teams are doing. That's the way comparative statements work. Sorry not sorry.

[KrazyP]

Within 4 months Indiana is going to be capped out as well. I am not sure that is "significantly better", considering the easiest way to fill out a cheap roster is making draft selections, and while TOR gave up 1 first, IND gave up 3. That has significant cap implications.

Neither situation is good from a cap perspective.

This is nonsensical. I expect more from you.

The 23/24 Pacers flirted with 50 wins this year with their best player hobbled, the majority of their core players are young AND they have a cap situation that will allow them to keep the team together for the forseeable future.

The Raps in 22/23 muddled their way to a .500 season, lost in the play-in AND had no ability to keep that under performing team together because their cap situation was poor....already at the tax with several key pending free agents.

These two situations are no where close to being equivalent.

No rational person would bet on any upcoming individual Pacer pick being more valuable than the pick the Raps gave up for Poeltl which was what the dicusssion between me and Fairview was about before you chimed in.

The 21/22 Raptors flirted with 50 wins without a bench or a center - that is how quickly the landscape can change.

That teams about to supermax Hali and probably max Siakam as well. Anyway you put it, two huge contracts like that drastically limits upside.

I would trade our situation for theirs in a heartbeat, but they are far from a good cap situation.

You inserted your head into a discussion you werent part of, didnt understand it and then tried to change the discussion.

The Pacers at the time of the Siakam trade were in a much better situation cap wise and team wise than the Raptors at the time of the Poeltl trade. There is no argument to be had here.

No rational person would bet on any individual pick that the Raptors acquired in the Siakam trade to be worth more than the pick they gave up for Poeltl.

Continue to believe whatever you want to believe though.