Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[Scase]

I would say the return from the trade is actually bordering on awful in terms of how much time/resources we invested in siakam over the years.

A FO don't have to strike gold on every trade. But when it comes to these building block tier transactions (once every half a decade) they better bat average which they failed to do.

He is a 27th overall pick that helped us with a championship and now been converted in multiple draft picks and rotational players. If we are talking time / resources invested in Siakam, and the return on the original 27th pick in 2016, we did OK in this regard.

Who cares? We didn't trade him as a 27th pick, he was traded as a max contract player.

[deck]

I would say the return from the trade is actually bordering on awful in terms of how much time/resources we invested in siakam over the years.

A FO don't have to strike gold on every trade. But when it comes to these building block tier transactions (once every half a decade) they better bat average which they failed to do.

He is a 27th overall pick that helped us with a championship and now been converted in multiple draft picks and rotational players. If we are talking time / resources invested in Siakam, and the return on the original 27th pick in 2016, we did OK in this regard.

Who cares? We didn't trade him as a 27th pick, he was traded as a max contract player.

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

[OakleyDokely]

30 year olds, looking for max, who aren't superstars aren't going to bring back elite young players, or elite picks. Why would another team do that? The deal was always going to be for a mix of mid to late picks and B/C level prospects from a contender. Maybe if Masai traded him a year earlier, they'd get an additional late pick or an additional mid prospect, but the Raps were never getting top prospects for him, unless they literally traded him after his MIP season when he was young and still relatively cheap. Even Shams reported that the Pacers never offered one of their top young players, even as far back as last year. When you trade away the best player in the deal, you're likely to lose the deal on paper, at least initially.

[MiamiSPX]

If we had traded 4 assets for a 30-year old who was about to command a max contract, and is not a true star, the same people would have had a meltdown about that too.

For those of us who said Siakam was massively overrated by Raps fans, the market proved us/you right. So what is the problem?

I would have loved to get 3-4 top 10 picks, or a blue chip youngster, for him but why would a team in that position do that?

I am just happy he's gone. Good player, like him better as a person, but I legit thought Masai would let him walk or max him out. Like I've said a bunch of times, I think it's way too early to assume that 2026 pick will be crappy.

[ArthurVandelay]

Seems the overall consensus is poster's feelings on the trade boil down to their feelings on the front office in general.

[Scase]

He is a 27th overall pick that helped us with a championship and now been converted in multiple draft picks and rotational players. If we are talking time / resources invested in Siakam, and the return on the original 27th pick in 2016, we did OK in this regard.

Who cares? We didn't trade him as a 27th pick, he was traded as a max contract player.

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

Ah my bad I missed that first bit of his post, you have a valid argument

[Chandan]

He is a 27th overall pick that helped us with a championship and now been converted in multiple draft picks and rotational players. If we are talking time / resources invested in Siakam, and the return on the original 27th pick in 2016, we did OK in this regard.

Who cares? We didn't trade him as a 27th pick, he was traded as a max contract player.

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

[OakleyDokely]

Siakam hitting the game winning shot in the NBA finals cancels out whatever you're trying to cancel out.

[alfie123]

Siakam hitting the game winning shot in the NBA finals cancels out whatever you're trying to cancel out.

Are you saying Siakam will hit a game winner with Indy in the finals??

[tecumseh18]

Who cares? We didn't trade him as a 27th pick, he was traded as a max contract player.

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

[Chandan]

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

My mistake, they would have went somewhere had the fearsome Diar Derozan not stood in their way.

That core that would have went somewhere would definitely get us back loads of assets and young players with potential.

[srhcan]

Wiggins, Kuminga, Moody could have been playing for Raptors today if FO had made the decision at the right time.

[OakleyDokely]

The GS owner loves Kuminga, they were never trading him. Wiggins and his bloated contract and Moody is much worse than we got.

[Scase]

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

I mean that core without Jak was going nowhere, and then when he joined all we did was beat bad teams. So yeah, it was pretty predictable.

We saw the team without Jak, and that was the lotto. I think we can all agree that Jak regardless of how you feel about the trade, is not the quality of player that lifts lotto teams to some great height. That core had massive flaws that were apparent to a lot of people, I don't think it's an unreasonable statement, the team was like 7th worst in the league before the trade.

[tecumseh18]

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

I mean that core without Jak was going nowhere, and then when he joined all we did was beat bad teams. So yeah, it was pretty predictable.

We saw the team without Jak, and that was the lotto. I think we can all agree that Jak regardless of how you feel about the trade, is not the quality of player that lifts lotto teams to some great height. That core had massive flaws that were apparent to a lot of people, I don't think it's an unreasonable statement, the team was like 7th worst in the league before the trade.

Oh, sure. There was a pathway to get to 6th in the lottery odds in February 2023. The Raps underperformed big time last season, up to the very end. They should have crushed the Bulls in the play-in, but missed 16 free throws.

There was clearly a mental or chemistry problem that gradually took hold in the 2022-23 season. But not a talent problem. The Raps early in the season took 3 of 4 from the Cavs, Knicks and Heat.

But in the abstract, looking at OG and Fred and Pascal and 2024 all-star Scottie, coached by Nurse, with NY darling Precious who as a team and individual players looked good the season before, how could anyone "predict" that team was going nowhere? Teams have good seasons and bad seasons. We honestly don't know what's going to happen. It's just the inveterate haters who, like a stopped clock, happen to be right twice a day.

[Scase]

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

I mean that core without Jak was going nowhere, and then when he joined all we did was beat bad teams. So yeah, it was pretty predictable.

We saw the team without Jak, and that was the lotto. I think we can all agree that Jak regardless of how you feel about the trade, is not the quality of player that lifts lotto teams to some great height. That core had massive flaws that were apparent to a lot of people, I don't think it's an unreasonable statement, the team was like 7th worst in the league before the trade.

Oh, sure. There was a pathway to get to 6th in the lottery odds in February 2023. The Raps underperformed big time last season, up to the very end. They should have crushed the Bulls in the play-in, but missed 16 free throws.

There was clearly a mental or chemistry problem that gradually took hold in the 2022-23 season. But not a talent problem. The Raps early in the season took 3 of 4 from the Cavs, Knicks and Heat.

But in the abstract, looking at OG and Fred and Pascal and 2024 all-star Scottie, coached by Nurse, with NY darling Precious who as a team and individual players looked good the season before, how could anyone "predict" that team was going nowhere? Teams have good seasons and bad seasons. We honestly don't know what's going to happen. It's just the inveterate haters who, like a stopped clock, happen to be right twice a day.

I think as it was for quite some time, the talent wasn't so much the issue, but rather the fit. Couple that with some lingering bad play from FVV, the vibes seemingly not that great, and then having multiple guys coming up on the ends of their contracts, and it was a receipe for disaster.

As far as the skill/talent bit, I don't think it was the primary issue (I still think that was roster fit), but it definitely was an issue overall. The team lacked a true number one, and had people playing higher in the pecking order than they should have been. Teams with Siakam/FVV as 1st/2nd options were not going very far, that was pretty evident the years prior.

With all that said, I'm happy we moved on, I just wish we were able to set the team up for a quicker turn around.

[Chandan]

Everyone knows our problem was missing that 1A type talent (that Kawhi was) . I don't know how you can tell me it wasnt a talent issue.

[WaltFrazier]

I was responding to Chandan's assertion that the return is poor given what we had invested in Siakam. That is clearly a false assertion. We have gotten tremendous value from Siakam as a 27th overall pick.

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

If only the FO had done better building around that core.

[tecumseh18]

Siakam being the 27th overall pick was cancelled out by the fact they tried to build around the 27th overall pick for 4 years. (when everyone knew him and FVV core was going nowhere)

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

If only the FO had done better building around that core.

I wonder how much of it was refusal to go into the tax to deepen the bench. The 2018-19 Raps went mildly into the tax (although we still gave a FRP to unload Moose's contract and reduce the damage) and won a championship. The 2019-2020 Raps stayed under the tax and finished with the second best winning percentage in the league. OK, the following season was the ideal time for a tank - playing in Tampa in front of adversarial crowds and a LOT of talent at the top of the draft. But once we're back in Toronto, why not support this team which was replete with championship-level talent with some serious $ investment. We had just taken the Celtics to the last minute of Game 7 in late 2020, and then Boston started spending a ton. Why shouldn't the Raptors match their investment?

I know: Covid lockdown, lost gate money, not wanting to give up the revenue sharing distribution ... wah-wah. But THAT was the issue. We simply couldn't compete with the Sixers and Celtics and Western conference teams who were spending well into the tax.

I can blame Ted Rogers, and perhaps his antipathy for Masai. Because if Masai REALLY believed in this core, he should have lobbied to spend in order to support it.

[Psubs]

Yup, literally everyone knew that a core of Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Scottie and Fred, coached by Nick Nurse, was going nowhere.

If only the FO had done better building around that core.

I wonder how much of it was refusal to go into the tax to deepen the bench. The 2018-19 Raps went mildly into the tax (although we still gave a FRP to unload Moose's contract and reduce the damage) and won a championship. The 2019-2020 Raps stayed under the tax and finished with the second best winning percentage in the league. OK, the following season was the ideal time for a tank - playing in Tampa in front of adversarial crowds and a LOT of talent at the top of the draft. But once we're back in Toronto, why not support this team which was replete with championship-level talent with some serious $ investment. We had just taken the Celtics to the last minute of Game 7 in late 2020, and then Boston started spending a ton. Why shouldn't the Raptors match their investment?

I know: Covid lockdown, lost gate money, not wanting to give up the revenue sharing distribution ... wah-wah. But THAT was the issue. We simply couldn't compete with the Sixers and Celtics and Western conference teams who were spending well into the tax.

I can blame Ted Rogers, and perhaps his antipathy for Masai. Because if Masai REALLY believed in this core, he should have lobbied to spend in order to support it.

Once, Kawhi left, it really wasn't enough to spend. They didn't have cap space so could just use the MLE.