Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[Scase]

I agree with you. I hated the return for Siakam and I'm regarded as an FO apologist by some on this board. With that said, I've come to the conclusion that the league severely underrates Siakam. I can find the pod if folks want, but Lowe came out and said that he believes the return for Siakam would have been similar if it was done the year before based on what he had heard on what was being offered to the Raptors. So while I hate the return, I can't really fault the FO for it.

With that said, it can be argued that if the Raptors knew about this value mismatch and they knew they didn't want to max Siakam, they should have just gotten it over with the year before (I believe Scase has made this argument in the past). I tend to agree at this point, but only because they made no real push to re-sign Fred based on what Fred said himself about how the off-season transpired for him. If they weren't dead set on bringing Fred back, there was no way this was going to work with Siakam.

If I was a real FO apologist, I'd say that they only came to this conclusion after finishing out the season but I think that doesn't align with how patient and calculated this FO has been through its tenure.

With all that said, I'd much rather Onlynyk and Agbaji than a late 1st in a weak draft where we will have 2-3 picks already. I like this trade in a vaccum.

I'm not a big hater on the KO/AO for the 28th trade, but one would assume that you could probably pull that trade off using the DET 31st pick +filler instead no? If anything that pick has more value than the 28th due to guaranteed salary.

Now this all obviously goes down the whole rabbit hole of, "If we trade Siakam last year, do we still trade OG for the Knicks package" and so on, I personally think we do.

But I just cannot for the life of me, see any reason as to why we kept Siakam as long as we did. Feels like sunk cost after trading for Jak.

We held onto Siakam because Masai wanted to see what our team could do. He finally realized we were a treadmill team in December and began the rebuild. He’ll then end the season by claiming it was a development year all along. He better get us a decent return for Bruce Brown.

I will gladly be wrong, but I don't see how we can swing any decent return for Brown at this point, that window passed at the deadline. As of now, we can't even trade him without picking up the team option. And considering not picking up his option gives us cap space, you don't need to match salaries if you have the space to absorb the contract. So really, he has more value to us as an expiring than anything, which would make him a dead asset in that trade.

[ForeverTFC]

We held onto Siakam because Masai wanted to see what our team could do. He finally realized we were a treadmill team in December and began the rebuild. He’ll then end the season by claiming it was a development year all along. He better get us a decent return for Bruce Brown.

If that's the case, why did he try to trade Siakam in the summer? And why did he tell FVV team was going to go young and in a different direction during FA?

[Scase]

We held onto Siakam because Masai wanted to see what our team could do. He finally realized we were a treadmill team in December and began the rebuild. He’ll then end the season by claiming it was a development year all along. He better get us a decent return for Bruce Brown.

If that's the case, why did he try to trade Siakam in the summer? And why did he tell FVV team was going to go young and in a different direction during FA?

Because he didnt want to sign him to a 5 year max, he would gladly have re-signed him for 3-4 years, but they couldn't come to an agreement. Which means he still believed enough that Siakam was an integral part of the core.

If he really wanted to trade him as much as is being implied, he would have done it. Especially if what Lowe said about the return is true. Why wait longer, if you know the return is largely the same? Especially when the cost is ruining a pick that you know you need to be very bad, to have any chance at retaining.

As down as I am on the FO, Masai is not a stupid man. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he knew the ramifications of his actions. He just made some really bad decisions.

[OakleyDokely]

Yes, and all those guys will be less valuable on huge contracts into their 30s than they are now.

Less valuable in the future. The point is that Siakam of last year would've been in a similar spot as those guys are now or will be soon.

Again, there is a line of argument that Siakam was never ever worth a haul at any point in his career post-bubble, that nobody else in the NBA valued him as an All Star. That I could accept. But I'm hearing some of the same people who pleaded for patience for Masai to work his magic, who said it was ONLY worth trading Siakam for a haul now rationalizing all kinds of things about his age and salary.

In a vacuum, it's a mediocre trade. In context, it's dismal and only looks decent compared to the FVV debacle

Trading for Siakam now or last year doesn't change the fact you need to give him a huge contract into his 30s, unless you view him as a short term rental, and if that's the case, that team isn't giving up much.

[2019nbachamps]

We held onto Siakam because Masai wanted to see what our team could do. He finally realized we were a treadmill team in December and began the rebuild. He’ll then end the season by claiming it was a development year all along. He better get us a decent return for Bruce Brown.

If that's the case, why did he try to trade Siakam in the summer? And why did he tell FVV team was going to go young and in a different direction during FA?

Masai tried to resign FVV but was outbid. He then replaced FVV with Schroeder and tried to run it back. I would say Masai pulling the trigger on a Siakam trade during the summer would’ve substantiated your argument he entered the season keen on rebuilding. His remarks indicate he wanted to give the team a chance with a new starting C in the lineup (Poeltl). Unfortunately pretty much every misstep we’ve made recently comes down to Masai overvaluing the roster.

[srhcan]

Siakam a 2-time All-NBA and 2-time All-Star player, was traded by Raptors in his prime for basically nothing.
Pacers has this whole bunch of good young players (4-7) and they did not give us even a single player from that bunch. Even if any player of that bunch cannot play much for Pacers just because of the damn competition, Pacers still refused to give him to us.
They continue the same treatment in case of draft picks. They give us picks in a draft which is consider to have inferior talent and even there, they give us low picks instead of high picks.

The effect of this trade was not felt much initially, because Barnes continued his stellar play of this season. But now Barnes is injured and cannot play and most likely out for the season. And now we are seeing the full effects of the Siakam trade. That trade made us bad in present and also does not improve our future. Other teams would have traded a player of Siakam caliber to either improve their present or future. We on the other hand strike out in both cases.

This trade may even put seeds of doubt in Barnes mind. He may be thinking is this organization willing to build to compete for a championship? OR they want to build a team whose ceiling is to make playoffs? Are they counting again to get lucky and find gems in later parts of draft? Do they want to draft another superstar? Or are they counting again that a disgruntled superstar will be traded to them?

Since I created this thread, Raptors have lost 6 straight, 2 of those loses were to teams which are even lower than them.

[ForeverTFC]

We held onto Siakam because Masai wanted to see what our team could do. He finally realized we were a treadmill team in December and began the rebuild. He’ll then end the season by claiming it was a development year all along. He better get us a decent return for Bruce Brown.

If that's the case, why did he try to trade Siakam in the summer? And why did he tell FVV team was going to go young and in a different direction during FA?

Masai tried to resign FVV but was outbid. He then replaced FVV with Schroeder and tried to run it back. I would say Masai pulling the trigger on a Siakam trade during the summer would’ve substantiated your argument he entered the season keen on rebuilding. His remarks indicate he wanted to give the team a chance with a new starting C in the lineup (Poeltl). Unfortunately pretty much every misstep we’ve made recently comes down to Masai overvaluing the roster.

You can say that all you want but it won't make it true. On this one, we have actual quotes from Fred:

Woj: "Did Toronto feel like a recruitment at all ?"
FVV: "No, not really. I have a great relationship with those guys ... but you have to understand the situation and know what is going on in the org. It was just a time where it's starting to go around Scottie and some of the young guys and my value there wasn't as great as it was in Houston. It definitely was not a buttering up in that meeting but I credit Masai for shooting straight and being upfront ... he was pretty straight forward."

Woj: "Was it easy to leave Toronto?"
FVV: "No it was never easy, one of the most difficult decisions I made ... but I didn't want to be in a position where I'm signing a contract just because the number is good. I wanted to position myself for the future. Kind of looking ahead and seeing the writing was on the wall. Looking ahead, they were clearly going in a different direction. This is not a situation I was brought into and nurtured in and cultured in. This is a different environment as they start over a little bit and I just wanted to be somewhere I could be myself all the way through and not try and fit into a box. So I think it was best for all parties."

This doesn't sound like Masai was "outbid". They clearly were pivoting already in some sense. Now for me, this goes back to my original point. If they weren't going to go all out to get Fred and had already decided to trade Siakam in the off-season (or at least decided against a max contract), why not tear it down in the prior deadline even if the value you were going to get back wasn't great? I completely disagree that they came into this season to "win" and then decided to tear it all down in 20 games. They had clearly made their decision in the off-season when you put it all together. Yet for some reason, some of the roster moves went against this direction which is a bit baffling.

[2019nbachamps]

If that's the case, why did he try to trade Siakam in the summer? And why did he tell FVV team was going to go young and in a different direction during FA?

Masai tried to resign FVV but was outbid. He then replaced FVV with Schroeder and tried to run it back. I would say Masai pulling the trigger on a Siakam trade during the summer would’ve substantiated your argument he entered the season keen on rebuilding. His remarks indicate he wanted to give the team a chance with a new starting C in the lineup (Poeltl). Unfortunately pretty much every misstep we’ve made recently comes down to Masai overvaluing the roster.

You can say that all you want but it won't make it true. On this one, we have actual quotes from Fred:

Woj: "Did Toronto feel like a recruitment at all ?"
FVV: "No, not really. I have a great relationship with those guys ... but you have to understand the situation and know what is going on in the org. It was just a time where it's starting to go around Scottie and some of the young guys and my value there wasn't as great as it was in Houston. It definitely was not a buttering up in that meeting but I credit Masai for shooting straight and being upfront ... he was pretty straight forward."

Woj: "Was it easy to leave Toronto?"
FVV: "No it was never easy, one of the most difficult decisions I made ... but I didn't want to be in a position where I'm signing a contract just because the number is good. I wanted to position myself for the future. Kind of looking ahead and seeing the writing was on the wall. Looking ahead, they were clearly going in a different direction. This is not a situation I was brought into and nurtured in and cultured in. This is a different environment as they start over a little bit and I just wanted to be somewhere I could be myself all the way through and not try and fit into a box. So I think it was best for all parties."

This doesn't sound like Masai was "outbid". They clearly were pivoting already in some sense. Now for me, this goes back to my original point. If they weren't going to go all out to get Fred and had already decided to trade Siakam in the off-season (or at least decided against a max contract), why not tear it down in the prior deadline even if the value you were going to get back wasn't great? I completely disagree that they came into this season to "win" and then decided to tear it all down in 20 games. They had clearly made their decision in the off-season when you put it all together. Yet for some reason, some of the roster moves went against this direction which is a bit baffling.

Fred is a liar. He told our media he wasn’t offered an extension and then told the Pivot Podcast he did turn down an extension so he could test free agency. I believe ESPN reported that the Raptors offered Fred $130m over 4, and they said no to Fred when he asked if they would match Houston’s offer.

Also, why would we hold onto Fred at the deadline if we were planning to let him walk? That doesn’t make any sense at all.

Anyways we can debate all we want. You can check the YouTube clips of Fred denying we offered an extension at the start of last season and then telling the Pivot he did get an offer but wanted to test the waters.

[Johnny Bball]

We held onto Siakam because Masai wanted to see what our team could do. He finally realized we were a treadmill team in December and began the rebuild. He’ll then end the season by claiming it was a development year all along. He better get us a decent return for Bruce Brown.

If that's the case, why did he try to trade Siakam in the summer? And why did he tell FVV team was going to go young and in a different direction during FA?

Masai tried to resign FVV but was outbid. He then replaced FVV with Schroeder and tried to run it back. I would say Masai pulling the trigger on a Siakam trade during the summer would’ve substantiated your argument he entered the season keen on rebuilding. His remarks indicate he wanted to give the team a chance with a new starting C in the lineup (Poeltl). Unfortunately pretty much every misstep we’ve made recently comes down to Masai overvaluing the roster.

I'm not sure if people understand this, but just because he wants to give them a chance doesn't mean he was overvaluing the roster. And I'm not sure why anyone would think Siakam's value was higher than when he was traded, considering if you added another first to that existing deal it gets made pretty damn quick, but it wasn't.

you trade Siakam in the summer or you give them a chance... what difference does it make to this years outcome?

He knew he had to move OG regardless. Since its clear now OG was always going to go to the Knicks anyway.

[Thaddy]

The better move would be to decline Brown's option, re-sign him to a team friendly deal, and then trade him later.

[Fairview4Life]

Siakam a 2-time All-NBA and 2-time All-Star player, was traded by Raptors in his prime for basically nothing.
Pacers has this whole bunch of good young players (4-7) and they did not give us even a single player from that bunch. Even if any player of that bunch cannot play much for Pacers just because of the damn competition, Pacers still refused to give him to us. :cry:
They continue the same treatment in case of draft picks. They give us picks in a draft which is consider to have inferior talent and even there, they give us low picks instead of high picks. :cry:

The effect of this trade was not felt much initially, because Barnes continued his stellar play of this season. But now Barnes is injured and cannot play and most likely out for the season. And now we are seeing the full effects of the Siakam trade. That trade made us bad in present and also does not improve our future. Other teams would have traded a player of Siakam caliber to either improve their present or future. We on the other hand strike out in both cases.

This trade may even put seeds of doubt in Barnes mind. He may be thinking is this organization willing to build to compete for a championship? OR they want to build a team whose ceiling is to make playoffs? Are they counting again to get lucky and find gems in later parts of draft? Do they want to draft another superstar? Or are they counting again that a disgruntled superstar will be traded to them?

Since I created this thread, Raptors have lost 6 straight, 2 of those loses were to teams which are even lower than them.

Yes, the Raptors are tanking. Are you saying it’s bad they have been losing games?

[2019nbachamps]

The better move would be to decline Brown's option, re-sign him to a team friendly deal, and then trade him later.

Why would Brown take less money?

[MiamiSPX]

The better move would be to decline Brown's option, re-sign him to a team friendly deal, and then trade him later.

Raps decline that option and he is not taking their calls IMO, especially when they could have traded him to a couple of teams who would have picked it up.

[Tripod]

The better move would be to decline Brown's option, re-sign him to a team friendly deal, and then trade him later.

Why would Brown take less money?

He could see multiple years of guaranteed money being worth more than 1.

He could see that the option isn't being picked up and doesn't want to risk what FA could bring vs what the Raps are offering in a new deal.

Maybe he starts liking Toronto, Darko, etc... and wants to be part of an up and coming team.

Could be multiple other reasons.

[Tripod]

Siakam a 2-time All-NBA and 2-time All-Star player, was traded by Raptors in his prime for basically nothing.
Pacers has this whole bunch of good young players (4-7) and they did not give us even a single player from that bunch. Even if any player of that bunch cannot play much for Pacers just because of the damn competition, Pacers still refused to give him to us.
They continue the same treatment in case of draft picks. They give us picks in a draft which is consider to have inferior talent and even there, they give us low picks instead of high picks.

The effect of this trade was not felt much initially, because Barnes continued his stellar play of this season. But now Barnes is injured and cannot play and most likely out for the season. And now we are seeing the full effects of the Siakam trade. That trade made us bad in present and also does not improve our future. Other teams would have traded a player of Siakam caliber to either improve their present or future. We on the other hand strike out in both cases.

This trade may even put seeds of doubt in Barnes mind. He may be thinking is this organization willing to build to compete for a championship? OR they want to build a team whose ceiling is to make playoffs? Are they counting again to get lucky and find gems in later parts of draft? Do they want to draft another superstar? Or are they counting again that a disgruntled superstar will be traded to them?

Since I created this thread, Raptors have lost 6 straight, 2 of those loses were to teams which are even lower than them.

Who cares.

They have been without Barnes and Yak and also RJ, Quickley. Brown and GTJ missed games. Winning games has not been the goal. Sorry you can't see that.

And the future is undetermined. We have yet to use either Pacers picks for kids, or in a trade. So to say it doesn't help the future is dumb. They are assets. Assets we have and just have not used yet....but will IN THE FUTURE.

And let's see what the rest of the trade ends up as since right now, we have 3 rotational bench guys from it...one young, one now signed for 2 more years, and one TBD.

[2019nbachamps]

The better move would be to decline Brown's option, re-sign him to a team friendly deal, and then trade him later.

Why would Brown take less money?

He could see multiple years of guaranteed money being worth more than 1.

He could see that the option isn't being picked up and doesn't want to risk what FA could bring vs what the Raps are offering in a new deal.

Maybe he starts liking Toronto, Darko, etc... and wants to be part of an up and coming team.

Could be multiple other reasons.

He is not taking less money. Whole idea behind massive 1+1 deal is he knew even if TO wasn’t picked up he wouldn’t lose money due to Pacers overpay in year 1. His next deal will be guaranteed and more in line with his market value.

Also dude doesn’t want to be here. I expect us to pick up his option and trade him in the summer.

[islandboy53]

The better move would be to decline Brown's option, re-sign him to a team friendly deal, and then trade him later.

Why would Brown take less money?

He could see multiple years of guaranteed money being worth more than 1.

He could see that the option isn't being picked up and doesn't want to risk what FA could bring vs what the Raps are offering in a new deal.

Maybe he starts liking Toronto, Darko, etc... and wants to be part of an up and coming team.

Could be multiple other reasons.

If the Raps decline Brown's option, it's about as clear a signal as you need that they don't want him on the team. There will be a number of competitive teams with NTMLE level offers, and he will move on. He's not choosing to stay with a rebuilding team.

With that said, Toronto is not declining his option. While it seems quite possible that he will not return a 1st, there is still a market for him out there, and it seems very likely that he will bring back useful assets. We are not going to be a cap space team - there is more flexibility and opportunity for acquiring draft capital and young talent by operating over the cap.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

Why would Brown take less money?

He could see multiple years of guaranteed money being worth more than 1.

He could see that the option isn't being picked up and doesn't want to risk what FA could bring vs what the Raps are offering in a new deal.

Maybe he starts liking Toronto, Darko, etc... and wants to be part of an up and coming team.

Could be multiple other reasons.

If the Raps decline Brown's option, it's about as clear a signal as you need that they don't want him on the team. There will be a number of competitive teams with NTMLE level offers, and he will move on. He's not choosing to stay with a rebuilding team.

With that said, Toronto is not declining his option. While it seems quite possible that he will not return a 1st, there is still a market for him out there, and it seems very likely that he will bring back useful assets. We are not going to be a cap space team - there is more flexibility and opportunity for acquiring draft capital and young talent by operating over the cap.

If they decline his option they would have someone they want to pick up in free agency if not, they'll keep him and try to trade him for some assets

[bluerap23]

Siakam a 2-time All-NBA and 2-time All-Star player, was traded by Raptors in his prime for basically nothing.
Pacers has this whole bunch of good young players (4-7) and they did not give us even a single player from that bunch. Even if any player of that bunch cannot play much for Pacers just because of the damn competition, Pacers still refused to give him to us.
They continue the same treatment in case of draft picks. They give us picks in a draft which is consider to have inferior talent and even there, they give us low picks instead of high picks.

The effect of this trade was not felt much initially, because Barnes continued his stellar play of this season. But now Barnes is injured and cannot play and most likely out for the season. And now we are seeing the full effects of the Siakam trade. That trade made us bad in present and also does not improve our future. Other teams would have traded a player of Siakam caliber to either improve their present or future. We on the other hand strike out in both cases.

This trade may even put seeds of doubt in Barnes mind. He may be thinking is this organization willing to build to compete for a championship? OR they want to build a team whose ceiling is to make playoffs? Are they counting again to get lucky and find gems in later parts of draft? Do they want to draft another superstar? Or are they counting again that a disgruntled superstar will be traded to them?

Since I created this thread, Raptors have lost 6 straight, 2 of those loses were to teams which are even lower than them.

Not sure if you heard but our franchise player broke his hand.

[Johnny Bball]

He could see multiple years of guaranteed money being worth more than 1.

He could see that the option isn't being picked up and doesn't want to risk what FA could bring vs what the Raps are offering in a new deal.

Maybe he starts liking Toronto, Darko, etc... and wants to be part of an up and coming team.

Could be multiple other reasons.

If the Raps decline Brown's option, it's about as clear a signal as you need that they don't want him on the team. There will be a number of competitive teams with NTMLE level offers, and he will move on. He's not choosing to stay with a rebuilding team.

With that said, Toronto is not declining his option. While it seems quite possible that he will not return a 1st, there is still a market for him out there, and it seems very likely that he will bring back useful assets. We are not going to be a cap space team - there is more flexibility and opportunity for acquiring draft capital and young talent by operating over the cap.

If they decline his option they would have someone they want to pick up in free agency if not, they'll keep him and try to trade him for some assets

If they are keeping capholds on eveyrone else, and re-signing most players (Trent etc.) then they very likely pick up his option, because why wouldn't you. His salary is still trade ballast up to the tax. The only way the wouldn't pick it up is they are letting all cap holds go to use cap space (unlikely now, but maybe they could grab Grayson Allen with under 30 mil), or the salaries of the MLE and re-signed players (IQ, Trent, etc.) add up to more than the tax minus his salary.