Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[YogurtProducer]

You inserted your head into a discussion you werent part of, didnt understand it and then tried to change the discussion.

If you dont want others responding, take your conversation to a private message

The Pacers at the time of the Siakam trade were in a much better situation cap wise and team wise than the Raptors at the time of the Poeltl trade. There is no argument to be had here.

And I am saying they really aren't. They are going to have $100M locked into like 2 guys 2 months from now. Their "good cap situation" isn't going to be able to be used for anything, so it really does not matter.

Just like at the time of the Poeltl trade if we retained FVV we would have been completely capped out. That is where IND is heading this summer or next.

No rational person would bet on any individual pick that the Raptors acquired in the Siakam trade to be worth more than the pick they gave up for Poeltl.

Well good thing that we did not only get 1 asset back for Siakam but rather a package

The funniest thing is - there is still a chance we keep our pick this year and end up conveying a later pick in 2025. If that were to happen, I wonder how much goalpost shifting will happen then.

[brownbobcat]

And the conversation wasn't about whether we're satisfied with the current situation. That is shifting the goalposts.

The conversation is whether they are atrocious finding players amongst the fringes. And to evaluate atrocious you have see how other teams are doing. That's the way comparative statements work. Sorry not sorry.

So a non-atrocious team spends the last few years making non-atrocious pickups in the fringes, non-atrocious MLE signings, non-atrocious trades of its vets, non-atrocious trades of its picks and plays at a non-atrocious 31-win pace before it tanks on its way to a non-atrocious 25th place finish and a 54% chance of losing its lottery draft pick.

It was all going so non-atrociously, it's a total mystery how things went off the rails.

[YogurtProducer]

And the conversation wasn't about whether we're satisfied with the current situation. That is shifting the goalposts.

The conversation is whether they are atrocious finding players amongst the fringes. And to evaluate atrocious you have see how other teams are doing. That's the way comparative statements work. Sorry not sorry.

So a non-atrocious team spends the last few years making non-atrocious pickups in the fringes, non-atrocious MLE signings, non-atrocious trades of its vets, non-atrocious trades of its picks and plays at a non-atrocious 31-win pace before it tanks on its way to a non-atrocious 25th place finish and a 54% chance of losing its lottery draft pick.

It was all going so non-atrociously, it's a total mystery how things went off the rails.

Atrocious would be missing the playoffs with no young talent and no picks (see - mid teens Brooklyn Nets).

The fact you cannot figure out why we have not had any late 1st round gems since OG means this conversation is just literally going nowhere. If you cannot even accept the facts of the situation, how is anyone supposed to take your opinions seriously?

Like for real - everything you post is so full of ridiculous hyperbole and borderline misinformation it is insane

[YogurtProducer]

Not that I was a fan of the Jak trade, because I wasn't. But again this argument is disingenious as the Jak for FRP was pretty much 1:1 (a few seconds that could be attributed to him or Khem).

The Pascal trade is more than just the single FRP.

Fair enough, I dont think anyone ever expects to get exactly back the same quality, but this just goes to show how bad the trade has been. The likelihood of getting a player better than Jak with the 7th OA pick is way higher than whatever crap we got from the Siakam trade.

With the Siakam trade return, we'd be lucky to even get a role player at this point. Both were bad trades, but for different reasons.

When you make trades like this, there are probabilities attached to the picks. If we pick a better player at 21 than the Spurs get at say 7, does that mean our trade was better?

Poeltl cost 1 top 6 protected pick 1 year removed. Siakam cost 2 top 4 protected picks along with Ochai and Kelly. It’s clear that Siakam got the much better package.

I don’t like the package but I thought we should have re-signed Siakam. If you were in the trade bandwagon, this is as good as it’s gonna get. People here were hype about that garbage Atlanta package in the off season for crying out loud.

Yeah people seem to dont understand is that we did not think we would be conveying the #7 pick when we made that trade. No one in their right mind though this team would be a 25-win team less than 2 years after upgrading the roster for Poeltl. Odds are we thought .500 was about the floor of the team, and if that happened they would convey in 2024 and then likely made wholesale changes in 2025. FVV getting 40M and the **** this season became just meant out tank started one year earlier than I think the FO actually planned.

These same guys were the ones saying FVV leaving would be addition by subtraction, so they certainly cant say they foresaw this.

[Duffman100]

And the conversation wasn't about whether we're satisfied with the current situation. That is shifting the goalposts.

The conversation is whether they are atrocious finding players amongst the fringes. And to evaluate atrocious you have see how other teams are doing. That's the way comparative statements work. Sorry not sorry.

So a non-atrocious team spends the last few years making non-atrocious pickups in the fringes, non-atrocious MLE signings, non-atrocious trades of its vets, non-atrocious trades of its picks and plays at a non-atrocious 31-win pace before it tanks on its way to a non-atrocious 25th place finish and a 54% chance of losing its lottery draft pick.

It was all going so non-atrociously, it's a total mystery how things went off the rails.

Are we talking fringes now or talking a bunch of other moves and switching the goalposts again?

Even by your own admission, the fringe moves included 30 players of 30 teams in 6 years. That isn't moving the needle much and thus wouldn't really be explaining the circumstances you're describing.

[brownbobcat]

Are we talking fringes now or talking a bunch of other moves and switching the goalposts again?

Even by your own admission, the fringe moves included 30 players of 30 teams in 6 years. That isn't moving the needle much and thus wouldn't really be explaining the circumstances you're describing.

According to you, none of the moves made at any of those levels qualified as atrocious - so how is it that the team finds itself in its current position?

[Duffman100]

Are we talking fringes now or talking a bunch of other moves and switching the goalposts again?

Even by your own admission, the fringe moves included 30 players of 30 teams in 6 years. That isn't moving the needle much and thus wouldn't really be explaining the circumstances you're describing.

According to you, none of the moves made at any of those levels qualified as atrocious - so how is it that the team finds itself in its current position?

When did I say that?

[YogurtProducer]

When everything is atrocious, suddenly nothing is anymore.

Ever read "the boy who called wolf"?

[KrazyP]

Post championship, this board has gone to complete shite.

A line in the sand had been drawn.

One one side you have posters that are constantly negative in all contexts.....whining and complaining about everything like 3 year old toddlers about even the most marginal things. On the other side, you have a subset of posters who are constantly positive in all contexts, always supporting management decisions even in situations where they clearly goofed.

The more crazy one side gets, the more locked into their positions the other side gets and vice versa. Its almost reminiscent of modern day politics or dare I say it, Leaf fans for like the last 30 years.

I see very few posters left who can call a spade a spade without personal biases or agendas getting in the way. Perhaps I'm guilty of this myself sometimes...I dont know but I feel lost on island alone in thinking this management is still strong with most of their decisions being rational but also thinking the return they got for Siakam was poor and largely due to taking too long to pick a direction/make decisions. Patience in some circumstances is a virtue but in others it can be a handicap.

[MiamiSPX]

Post championship, this board has gone to complete shite.

A line in the sand had been drawn.

One one side you have posters that are constantly negative in all contexts.....whining and complaining about everything like 3 year old toddlers about even the most marginal things. On the other side, you have a subset of posters who are constantly positive in all contexts, always supporting management decisions even in situations where they clearly goofed.

The more crazy one side gets, the more locked into their positions the other side gets and vice versa. Its almost reminiscent of modern day politics or dare I say it, Leaf fans for like the last 30 years.

I see very few posters left who can call a spade a spade without personal biases or agendas getting in the way. Perhaps I'm guilty of this myself sometimes...I dont know but I feel lost on island alone in thinking this management is still strong with most of their decisions being rational but also thinking the return they got for Siakam was poor and largely due to taking too long to pick a direction/make decisions. Patience in some circumstances is a virtue but in others it can be a handicap.

I'd love to go one day without reading about how bad the Poeltl trade was (and I despised it, and still do). Let it go already.

On the flipside, there are a couple of posters who will never, ever criticize the FO. Every move is amazing, every player is good, etc....

Meh, I still love our fanbase.

[MiamiSPX]

The issue was never that Siakam wasn't a really good player and the expectations should never have been that by trading him you'd likely get a player as good back for him. Most of the time, when you trade away the best player in the deal, you aren't getting a player back that is his equal unless you fluke out with a draft pick.

This deal was about about not paying him 50 mill a year for his 30-35 years when you aren't a contender and it's better to reset with cheaper, younger, more flexible assets.

Oak dropping succinct facts, as usual.

I am sure there is a small fraction of fans here that have outright said he is not good, but that is not most fans. Lots of strawmen being built last night and today. I'm still not sure what last night's game "proved" other than Siakam is a really damn good player, something I have always agreed with despite not wanting to max him. Dropping 73 points on the road in 2 games is no joke.

I still don't see how that invalidates the sentiment that he cannot be a true #1 on a contender. I would hope a guy that is about to be handed a quarter of a billion dollars can win you a 1st round game (and he absolutely won them that game). I see we are also glossing over the fact that MIL is missing a player that is 10x better than anyone else in this series, and garnered MVP votes for an 8th season in a row. I'm going to go out on a limb and say his presence would make a small difference in this series.

The best returns on Siakam's 5-year deal will be in years 1-2, maybe 3, which also coincides with the years Boston is going to own the East. It's obvious many here are prisoners of the moment so it's natural to watch these exciting games and try and convince yourself that Team X can go toe-to-toe with the Celtics, but they can't and that will be apparent in short order. I'm not saying teams should just throw their hands up in the air and concede but in our case we were so far away from contending, even with PS and OG, that the retool/rebuild/tear-down/whatever does make sense.

I am not the biggest fan lately of this FO but even I didn't mind the return. I believe Lowe when he says the return in the summer would have only been marginally better. I still think they should have made the move at that time rather than telling your best player you won't max him, that he's selfish, and then you oddly hang onto him for another 6 months. Not really sure what the benefit was there and if anything, we arguably have evidence that it harmed the team. I already thought Siakam was as classy as they come but he earned even more respect from me by how he's taken the high road through it all. Truly a good hearted dude.

[SpezNc]

There is something that annoy me with pundit that blast the Siakam trade in the past few days because Siakam is having very good playoffs so far .

They complete forget that the reason the Raptors trade Siakam was to reset timeline around Scottie Barnes and avoid to max long term a borderline max player . The fear with Siakam was staying a “mid team”, play-in / first round exit ceiling with limited ways to improve the team . Also let’s face it the relation was not good since Raptors refuse to considers super max him should he become eligible.

The goal of the trade and we can’t disagree with that route, was never to get back a player as good as Siakam . In fact , that would be a home run if that was the case . Masai would be a genie .

Now in term of the return we got , we can debate about the timing of the trade and if moving him sooner would have fetch a better return . Maybe it is maybe not . Let’s assume it is. Still , unlikely we get a player as good as Siakam .

Obviously a pundit can disagree with the direction we took . That pundit may feel that we should have kept Siakam and that we were close to being a contender with Barnes, RJ, Quick, Jakob and Gradey.

But comparing any player we get from the Siakam trade to Siakam is pointless IMO. Of course Siakam will be better . If not, this means Siakam is falling off a cliff.

Siakam is a very good player . In the 20 to 40 range in the NBA depending of the metric/ranking or how much you value that type of player. Can we please not be surprise each time he is having a good game ?

At the end of the day, what he do with Indiana is irrelevant to how this move will play out for the Raptors long term . And moving Siakam will have a bigger impact that the return itself .



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My issue with the Siakam trade is that I think that the argument that Siakam doesn't fit the Scottie timeline is simply not true. We definitely couldn't have afforded to keep both OG and Siakam, but we could have easily kept one of them.

It’s definitely up to debate. It’s all depend what is the ceiling of Siakam/ Barnes / RJ/ Quick / Jakub /Gradey .it’s not black and white .

For right or wrong , the reason the trade was made was to reset the timeline around Scottie .

It’s through that lens that the trade should be evaluated

We can debate the alternative but it’s not the route the FO choose .

[Duffman100]

Post championship, this board has gone to complete shite.

A line in the sand had been drawn.

One one side you have posters that are constantly negative in all contexts.....whining and complaining about everything like 3 year old toddlers about even the most marginal things. On the other side, you have a subset of posters who are constantly positive in all contexts, always supporting management decisions even in situations where they clearly goofed.

The more crazy one side gets, the more locked into their positions the other side gets and vice versa. Its almost reminiscent of modern day politics or dare I say it, Leaf fans for like the last 30 years.

I see very few posters left who can call a spade a spade without personal biases or agendas getting in the way. Perhaps I'm guilty of this myself sometimes...I dont know but I feel lost on island alone in thinking this management is still strong with most of their decisions being rational but also thinking the return they got for Siakam was poor and largely due to taking too long to pick a direction/make decisions. Patience in some circumstances is a virtue but in others it can be a handicap.

I think the problem is that those who are viewed as toxic positive aren't actually being listened to.

There are few posters (like 2-3) that who will NEVER criticize the FO.

I'm labelled as such and I've criticized them plenty.

[ForeverTFC]

Fair enough, I dont think anyone ever expects to get exactly back the same quality, but this just goes to show how bad the trade has been. The likelihood of getting a player better than Jak with the 7th OA pick is way higher than whatever crap we got from the Siakam trade.

With the Siakam trade return, we'd be lucky to even get a role player at this point. Both were bad trades, but for different reasons.

When you make trades like this, there are probabilities attached to the picks. If we pick a better player at 21 than the Spurs get at say 7, does that mean our trade was better?

Poeltl cost 1 top 6 protected pick 1 year removed. Siakam cost 2 top 4 protected picks along with Ochai and Kelly. It’s clear that Siakam got the much better package.

I don’t like the package but I thought we should have re-signed Siakam. If you were in the trade bandwagon, this is as good as it’s gonna get. People here were hype about that garbage Atlanta package in the off season for crying out loud.

In short, no.

In long, still no, but reasons

I've made this argument before, but the player that is ultimately picked, is absolutely irrelevant to the "quality" of the trade.

Trading prime Lebron for a SRP would be a horrible trade even if that SRP was the 2014 41st OA pick. Picks have inherent value that is unrelated to who ultimately gets selected with said pick.

A 1st is more valuable than a 2nd, than a 3rd, and so on. A 7th can be packaged to move up into the top 5 without too much more in additional assets. Trading up from 21 to top 5 is virtually impossible.

It's precisely why everyone was so upset that we had such weak protections on the pick for Jak. Because a top 10 pick is more valuable, than say an 11-15th. The inherent value of the pick is what the "quality" of the trade is based off of, not the far flung future of what a pick might become, teams are buying lotto tickets here, and you sell them on the "what if". The higher the chance of that "what if" paying out, the higher the cost.

So then we're in agreement. You said "The likelihood of getting a player better than Jak with the 7th OA pick is way higher than whatever crap we got from the Siakam trade." How do you know this? The Pacers '26 pick could be 5th overall pick. The players picked at either of the Pacers pick could be better than anything the Spurs get at 7th if the pick conveys.

The comparison is that a bubble playoff team traded a top 6 protected pick and a bottom of the playoffs team traded 2 top 4 protected picks + change. Clearly, what we got for Pascal is more valuable - this is the objective truth. So no, the Siakam return isn't worse than the Poeltl return. What you're doing is ascribing a new valuation to the Jakob trade and comparing it to a trade that still has a higher variance outcome attached to it.

[ForeverTFC]

Post championship, this board has gone to complete shite.

A line in the sand had been drawn.

One one side you have posters that are constantly negative in all contexts.....whining and complaining about everything like 3 year old toddlers about even the most marginal things. On the other side, you have a subset of posters who are constantly positive in all contexts, always supporting management decisions even in situations where they clearly goofed.

The more crazy one side gets, the more locked into their positions the other side gets and vice versa. Its almost reminiscent of modern day politics or dare I say it, Leaf fans for like the last 30 years.

I see very few posters left who can call a spade a spade without personal biases or agendas getting in the way. Perhaps I'm guilty of this myself sometimes...I dont know but I feel lost on island alone in thinking this management is still strong with most of their decisions being rational but also thinking the return they got for Siakam was poor and largely due to taking too long to pick a direction/make decisions. Patience in some circumstances is a virtue but in others it can be a handicap.

Agreed. Though the problem, just like in politics, is that one side wants to see everything burn to the ground to be proven right. We have a poster here who has clearly communicated that he would like to see us lose the 7th pick this year so that "the fanbase can become hysterical and Ujiri to finally get fired". That type of stuff doesn't sit right with me at all.

The Poeltl trade turned out to be a disaster but was rational. FVV walking for nothing was the big disaster and somehow it was the widely celebrated. It led to the Poeltl trade becoming a disaster, led to us being forced to move on from Pascal with limited leverage leading to subpar packages and ultimately an underwhelming return, and resulted in us having to go into the tank in a year where we don't fully control our pick.

[disoblige]

Post championship, this board has gone to complete shite.

A line in the sand had been drawn.

One one side you have posters that are constantly negative in all contexts.....whining and complaining about everything like 3 year old toddlers about even the most marginal things. On the other side, you have a subset of posters who are constantly positive in all contexts, always supporting management decisions even in situations where they clearly goofed.

The more crazy one side gets, the more locked into their positions the other side gets and vice versa. Its almost reminiscent of modern day politics or dare I say it, Leaf fans for like the last 30 years.

I see very few posters left who can call a spade a spade without personal biases or agendas getting in the way. Perhaps I'm guilty of this myself sometimes...I dont know but I feel lost on island alone in thinking this management is still strong with most of their decisions being rational but also thinking the return they got for Siakam was poor and largely due to taking too long to pick a direction/make decisions. Patience in some circumstances is a virtue but in others it can be a handicap.

They probably spent tons of money on the team, from seats to gambling. Their faulty expectations are to blame. Moment we lost our superstar on Kawhi, not sure why people had high expectations. Trading Poeltl or not, we still aint a great team.

[DreamTeam09]

Post championship, this board has gone to complete shite.

A line in the sand had been drawn.

One one side you have posters that are constantly negative in all contexts.....whining and complaining about everything like 3 year old toddlers about even the most marginal things. On the other side, you have a subset of posters who are constantly positive in all contexts, always supporting management decisions even in situations where they clearly goofed.

The more crazy one side gets, the more locked into their positions the other side gets and vice versa. Its almost reminiscent of modern day politics or dare I say it, Leaf fans for like the last 30 years.

I see very few posters left who can call a spade a spade without personal biases or agendas getting in the way. Perhaps I'm guilty of this myself sometimes...I dont know but I feel lost on island alone in thinking this management is still strong with most of their decisions being rational but also thinking the return they got for Siakam was poor and largely due to taking too long to pick a direction/make decisions. Patience in some circumstances is a virtue but in others it can be a handicap.

I'm with you brother, you're not on an island. A lot of ppl are just bored, some self-righteous right to be correct without even seeing the other side of the coin, a lot of ppl lack nuance, a lot of ppl aren't even really thinking for themselves, and have some preconceived notion as there's only one way to skin a cat, ect ect ect....

[brownbobcat]

Atrocious would be missing the playoffs with no young talent and no picks (see - mid teens Brooklyn Nets).

Or, you know, both teams made atrocious decisions but only 1 of those teams was literal inches away from beating the eventual champs in 2021 and is owed 4 unprotected future FRPs. But keep talking about misinformation.

The fact you cannot figure out why we have not had any late 1st round gems since OG means this conversation is just literally going nowhere. If you cannot even accept the facts of the situation, how is anyone supposed to take your opinions seriously?

Like for real - everything you post is so full of ridiculous hyperbole and borderline misinformation it is insane

Firstly, the Raptors would have had better opportunity to draft gems if they didn't trade away picks - excuse me, trade down - in 2022 and 2023.

Secondly, who said it was limited to late 1st gems? The list of players Toronto could've signed or drafted with their actual picks:

Dort, Reaves, Bane, Vincent, Strus, Duncan Robinson, Martin, Caruso, Tate, Alvarado, GP2, Melton, Aaron Wiggins, Dean Wade, KJ Martin, Tre Jones, Tillman, Isaiah Joe, Paul Reed, Naz Reid, Hauser, Konchar, Coffey.

They're not all not all starters or needle-movers but they get minutes.

[YogurtProducer]

Atrocious would be missing the playoffs with no young talent and no picks (see - mid teens Brooklyn Nets).

Or, you know, both teams made atrocious decisions but only 1 of those teams was literal inches away from beating the eventual champs in 2021 and is owed 4 unprotected future FRPs. But keep talking about misinformation.

The fact you cannot figure out why we have not had any late 1st round gems since OG means this conversation is just literally going nowhere. If you cannot even accept the facts of the situation, how is anyone supposed to take your opinions seriously?

Like for real - everything you post is so full of ridiculous hyperbole and borderline misinformation it is insane

Firstly, the Raptors would have had better opportunity to draft gems if they didn't trade away picks - excuse me, trade down - in 2022 and 2023.

Secondly, who said it was limited to late 1st gems? The list of players Toronto could've signed or drafted with their actual picks:

Dort, Reaves, Bane, Vincent, Strus, Duncan Robinson, Martin, Caruso, Tate, Alvarado, GP2, Melton, Aaron Wiggins, Dean Wade, KJ Martin, Tre Jones, Tillman, Isaiah Joe, Paul Reed, Naz Reid, Hauser, Konchar, Coffey.

They're not all not all starters or needle-movers but they get minutes.

Brooklyn in the mid teens weren’t an inch from the finals my guy.

Also, we made a pick in both 2022 AND 2023. Koloko had an unexpected illness, and Dick looks like he could be a solid player.

Come on man. We’re now at you bitching at the one first rounder in a decade that Masai missed on.

Like i am sorry, but trying to suggest our FO is anything less than great at finding talent is just so far from reality.

[disoblige]

Atrocious would be missing the playoffs with no young talent and no picks (see - mid teens Brooklyn Nets).

Or, you know, both teams made atrocious decisions but only 1 of those teams was literal inches away from beating the eventual champs in 2021 and is owed 4 unprotected future FRPs. But keep talking about misinformation.

The fact you cannot figure out why we have not had any late 1st round gems since OG means this conversation is just literally going nowhere. If you cannot even accept the facts of the situation, how is anyone supposed to take your opinions seriously?

Like for real - everything you post is so full of ridiculous hyperbole and borderline misinformation it is insane

Firstly, the Raptors would have had better opportunity to draft gems if they didn't trade away picks - excuse me, trade down - in 2022 and 2023.

Secondly, who said it was limited to late 1st gems? The list of players Toronto could've signed or drafted with their actual picks:

Dort, Reaves, Bane, Vincent, Strus, Duncan Robinson, Martin, Caruso, Tate, Alvarado, GP2, Melton, Aaron Wiggins, Dean Wade, KJ Martin, Tre Jones, Tillman, Isaiah Joe, Paul Reed, Naz Reid, Hauser, Konchar, Coffey.

They're not all not all starters or needle-movers but they get minutes.

Brooklyn in the mid teens weren’t an inch from the finals my guy.

Also, we made a pick in both 2022 AND 2023. Koloko had an unexpected illness, and Dick looks like he could be a solid player.

Come on man. We’re now at you bitching at the one first rounder in a decade that Masai missed on.

Like i am sorry, but trying to suggest our FO is anything less than great at finding talent is just so far from reality.

+1
https://www.sportsgamblingpodcast.com/2023/06/17/nba-draft-franchise-rankings-who-is-best-at-drafting/
https://towardsdatascience.com/which-nba-teams-are-best-at-drafting-20070ccd1702