Jack Armstrong on Barnes (Video)

[Scase]

Yeah the whole #1 option narrative is for talking heads like Bobcat (with all due respect; still a fan). Different scenarios will emphasize different skillsets.

Nobody would that argue Jokic is easily the best and most valuable player on the Nuggets, but his most dangerous role in crunch time on offence is to quarterback the final play and make an optimal read (which may result in him calling his own number).

There is only one Joker, but I think Barnes' real superpower is in the same mold. Read the play, and see which weakness in the D gets exposed. Whether RJ gets an angle for a perfect cut, they sag too far off Gradey in response to an action, they double him and IQ gets some space to create, or Scottie gets a mismatch he can bully-drive or back down - he's the hub.

I think when people say "#1 option" they generally think of just somebody who's gonna create something out of a live dribble in the middle of chaos or when things break down. IQ is probably the closest we have to that currently.

Yes, with a star like Barnes leading the team, the construction of the team probably would follow the Duncan Spurs model, where winning appears as more of a team effort. This team won't have a guy considered the #1 go to option, like say a Luka or Curry.

Sure as if we worked out with Siakam (both salary and win rate wise), the fact that we are not keeping Siakam showed this assumption with Barnes compare to Jokic is a bit immature.

Barnes is a better player at 22 than current Siakam, period. Siakam is a better scorer, that's it. While I think saying Scottie is a younger Jokic is a stupid comparison and absolutely premature. Using Siakam as a yard stick to measure Barnes is equally as bad.

I couldn't care less about the whole #1 option conversation, it's ultimately pointless, what we need is a team where we can guarantee a go to scorer can perform. Jamal Murray wouldn't be a #1 scoring option, but with Jokic he absolutely can be.

I've said this before, I think Scottie/Gradey (originally i thought GTJ might be able to be that "Murray", but dude has not developed at all) have the potential to have a similar style to Jokic/Murray. Gradey has shown he has quick the scoring knack, way more than he showed initially, but he needs that guy with the gravity to open him up, and vice versa. Scottie has shown to have a lot of gravity and he's not even a good scorer, maybe that duo doesn't work out, but people need to move past this #1 option mentality. That stuff only matters when you have a player like Luka/Shai/Durant etc.

[TheGeneral99]

This is why I say there are only six superstars in the league. Embiid, SGA, Tatum, Ant…they’re not there yet.

I think guys like Embiid and Doncic are superstars as well...maybe they don't have the title yet, but these guys are just crazy dominant. Doncic in particular is an absolute monster in the playoffs who nearly beat a healthy Kawhi/George Clippers team in 2021 at the age of 22 and was easily the best player in that series. Then in 2022 he led an underwhelming Mavs team to the conference finals and humiliated a stacked Suns team that had just made the finals. The dude is a beast.

Embiid's issue is health, but when healthy he's a top 2-3 player in the league every year.

After that I agree with you...SGA, Tatum, Edwards etc. are 1 tier below but still fantastic players who may reach that superstar level.

Isn't the greatest ability, availability? If Embiid can't make it through 4 rounds of playoffs, how can he be considered a superstar, even with how he has performed during the season, for like 60 games per season.

In terms of Doncic, it will be interesting to see if his career can be more than Harden's. Would you consider Harden a superstar? Hard to give that label, when the teams they are leading never make it to the finals. Luka is still very young, and the Mavs are building a better team around him, so there is a chance he can lead a team to the finals.

Maybe we need a new classification > regular season superstar

Fair enough with Embiid but I'll disagree on Doncic.

Harden was one of those guys couldn't elevate his play in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

Doncic, on the other hand, has been an absolute MONSTER in the playoffs. Look at this:

2020 (just 20 years old) - 31ppg, 10rpg, 9apg on 50%fg and 36%3fg.
2021 (just 21 years old) - 36ppg, 8rpg, 10apg on 49%fg and 41%3fg
2022 (just 22 years old) - 32ppg, 9rpg, 10apg on 46%fg and 35%3fg.

Really, just unbelievable. Taking the Kawhi+George Clippers in 2021 to a game 7 at just 21 years old while outplaying both of them...and then the year after just demolishing the Suns who had just made the finals the year before and were the #1 seed. The dude is an absolute stud.

Harden has never got close to that level of production in the playoffs. His efficiency plummets compared to the regular season.

[Indeed]

Yes, with a star like Barnes leading the team, the construction of the team probably would follow the Duncan Spurs model, where winning appears as more of a team effort. This team won't have a guy considered the #1 go to option, like say a Luka or Curry.

Sure as if we worked out with Siakam (both salary and win rate wise), the fact that we are not keeping Siakam showed this assumption with Barnes compare to Jokic is a bit immature.

Barnes is a better player at 22 than current Siakam, period. Siakam is a better scorer, that's it. While I think saying Scottie is a younger Jokic is a stupid comparison and absolutely premature. Using Siakam as a yard stick to measure Barnes is equally as bad.

I couldn't care less about the whole #1 option conversation, it's ultimately pointless, what we need is a team where we can guarantee a go to scorer can perform. Jamal Murray wouldn't be a #1 scoring option, but with Jokic he absolutely can be.

I've said this before, I think Scottie/Gradey (originally i thought GTJ might be able to be that "Murray", but dude has not developed at all) have the potential to have a similar style to Jokic/Murray. Gradey has shown he has quick the scoring knack, way more than he showed initially, but he needs that guy with the gravity to open him up, and vice versa. Scottie has shown to have a lot of gravity and he's not even a good scorer, maybe that duo doesn't work out, but people need to move past this #1 option mentality. That stuff only matters when you have a player like Luka/Shai/Durant etc.

If you have no idea what we are talking about, maybe you should not reply.
Your reply has nothing to do with our conversation. There was nothing about Siakam vs Barnes, but some how you can come up with it. Speechless...

[Scase]

Sure as if we worked out with Siakam (both salary and win rate wise), the fact that we are not keeping Siakam showed this assumption with Barnes compare to Jokic is a bit immature.

Barnes is a better player at 22 than current Siakam, period. Siakam is a better scorer, that's it. While I think saying Scottie is a younger Jokic is a stupid comparison and absolutely premature. Using Siakam as a yard stick to measure Barnes is equally as bad.

I couldn't care less about the whole #1 option conversation, it's ultimately pointless, what we need is a team where we can guarantee a go to scorer can perform. Jamal Murray wouldn't be a #1 scoring option, but with Jokic he absolutely can be.

I've said this before, I think Scottie/Gradey (originally i thought GTJ might be able to be that "Murray", but dude has not developed at all) have the potential to have a similar style to Jokic/Murray. Gradey has shown he has quick the scoring knack, way more than he showed initially, but he needs that guy with the gravity to open him up, and vice versa. Scottie has shown to have a lot of gravity and he's not even a good scorer, maybe that duo doesn't work out, but people need to move past this #1 option mentality. That stuff only matters when you have a player like Luka/Shai/Durant etc.

If you have no idea what we are talking about, maybe you should not reply.
Your reply has nothing to do with our conversation. There was nothing about Siakam vs Barnes, but some how you can come up with it. Speechless...

I don't know to tell you then, make your point more clear?

What exactly does this mean then?

Sure as if we worked out with Siakam (both salary and win rate wise), the fact that we are not keeping Siakam showed this assumption

Cause what it sounds like is "we tried this with Siakam, and didn't keep him".

[dkb964]

Which is why I'm not saying Scottie Barnes is as good as Lamar Odom...

aka Lamar Odom is a poor man's Scottie Barnes

Ppl are getting too defensive about this comparison

Ppl see the drama and headlines and forget how talented Lamar Odom was esp his first few seasons.

I still think Barnes is a better version of boris diaw and draymond green which is good defensively but not as offensively talented Lamar was.

That's fair. Honestly no comparison is ever going to really work because Scottie Barnes is.. Scottie.

Lamar was insanely talented just ... lazy? high? If Lamar had Scottie's brain, he probably is closer to 22, 12 and 6 on decent efficiency.

There is no doubt that Odom was a very unique player, but it was not like he was dropping 30 points per game left and right here. His career high in points was 34. To say that Barnes is not as talented offensively is just plain wrong. Odom has a career high of 17PPG on 43% shooting. I understand that the game is different now and scoring is up. Odom was not a shooter or scorer by any means and was not a defender. He was a very good role player and that is it. I do not mean to be rude but I wonder if people posting about Odom are old enough to have watched his career. The man is getting way overhyped on here. For his career he put up 13ppg/6rpg/3apg/1bpg/1spg on 46/31/69 shooting splits.

[binjumper]

I rather him focus on basketball than talking to media.

Being confident and organize thoughts + communicating effectively to others is a universal skill. No reason he can't be aware that he actually sound kinda dumb right now and get a few pointers from masai. It's kinda harsh but the reality.

Barnes has a bit of a "beautiful mind" when it comes to basketball, but he seems to be socially awkward off the court. It's not just a matter of media training, but verbal communication in general. This is something that's really difficult to change in a person. He is who he is.

Some people like being who they are. He a multimillionaire he can be what he wants.

[Chandan]

Being confident and organize thoughts + communicating effectively to others is a universal skill. No reason he can't be aware that he actually sound kinda dumb right now and get a few pointers from masai. It's kinda harsh but the reality.

Barnes has a bit of a "beautiful mind" when it comes to basketball, but he seems to be socially awkward off the court. It's not just a matter of media training, but verbal communication in general. This is something that's really difficult to change in a person. He is who he is.

Some people like being who they are. He a multimillionaire he can be what he wants.

you literally wrote "I rather him focus on basketball than talking to media" in your first reply.
So it's not like you really think he can be what he wants. You just want him to be the version of you want.

[binjumper]

Barnes has a bit of a "beautiful mind" when it comes to basketball, but he seems to be socially awkward off the court. It's not just a matter of media training, but verbal communication in general. This is something that's really difficult to change in a person. He is who he is.

Some people like being who they are. He a multimillionaire he can be what he wants.

you literally wrote "I rather him focus on basketball than talking to media" in your first reply.
So it's not like you really think he can be what he wants. You just want him to be the version of you want.

cool whatever you say guy.

[anotherhomer]

I rather him focus on basketball than talking to media.

Being confident and organize thoughts + communicating effectively to others is a universal skill. No reason he can't be aware that he actually sound kinda dumb right now and get a few pointers from masai. It's kinda harsh but the reality.

Barnes has a bit of a "beautiful mind" when it comes to basketball, but he seems to be socially awkward off the court. It's not just a matter of media training, but verbal communication in general. This is something that's really difficult to change in a person. He is who he is.

I sense where this is going but as someone who's actually diagnosed myseld myself, I was initially very hesitant to say it but after my wife mention she sees it, I'm going to say
He may not meet the dsm-5 criteria of that specific condition but for ppl like him, it doesn't make sense to make him into something he's not

It's best organization give him support but not turn him into something he's not

[ArthurVandelay]

This is wild stuff

Scottie is who he is and who he is seems to be a very genuine person who loves basketball

Why does he need to be anything else?

[rarefind]

Barnes is at 20 ppg while being a facilitator at 22 years old. To suggest he can't get to 25 ppg is borderline ridiculous. Can he do it efficiently as a number 1 option? Time will tell.

[lolwut]

Being confident and organize thoughts + communicating effectively to others is a universal skill. No reason he can't be aware that he actually sound kinda dumb right now and get a few pointers from masai. It's kinda harsh but the reality.

Barnes has a bit of a "beautiful mind" when it comes to basketball, but he seems to be socially awkward off the court. It's not just a matter of media training, but verbal communication in general. This is something that's really difficult to change in a person. He is who he is.

I sense where this is going but as someone who's actually diagnosed myseld myself, I was initially very hesitant to say it but after my wife mention she sees it, I'm going to say
He may not meet the dsm-5 criteria of that specific condition but for ppl like him, it doesn't make sense to make him into something he's not

It's best organization give him support but not turn him into something he's not

Where is this going? All I said was he's socially awkward. Many people are socially awkward.

[PerfectJab]

Also Barnes is incredible. More and more he looks like a super charged Lamar Odom, which is totally great.

Lamar Odom was a flake as a basketball player and did not defend well. I hate this comparison. It is almost as bad as the Barnes/ Aaron Gordan comparison fans of other teams throw around. I know you said "super charged" but jeez man Odom was a really good role player. I have much higher hopes for Scottie. Odom never even sniffed All-Star consideration.

All depends on your definition of super charged I guess lol.

IMO a super charged VC is basically MJ, and that is definitely not a shot at MJ lol.

I find it difficult to see the comparison even with 'super charged.' MJ could actually play at a high level consistently at both ends of the floor and was actually a superstar. VC was hyped up due to his dunking (perhaps the athleticism is where the comparison comes from) and never even cracked top 5 MVP once in in his career let alone an All NBA 1st team. Such an insult to the GOAT lol

I do see what you mean when it comes to Odom and Barnes. They both posses high basketball IQ and can play on both ends of the floor (have no idea what DKB964 is referring to saying that he couldn't defend). Given the way basketball is played now and the situation Barnes is in in terms of usage, it's actually a really good comparison!

Watch on YouTube

[/youtube]

[Drakeem]

Lamar Odom was a flake as a basketball player and did not defend well. I hate this comparison. It is almost as bad as the Barnes/ Aaron Gordan comparison fans of other teams throw around. I know you said "super charged" but jeez man Odom was a really good role player. I have much higher hopes for Scottie. Odom never even sniffed All-Star consideration.

All depends on your definition of super charged I guess lol.

IMO a super charged VC is basically MJ, and that is definitely not a shot at MJ lol.

VC was a superstar at some point in his career and may end up being a hall of fame player when it is all said and done. Odom was a solid starter or an elite 6th man. To be fair to the poster "super charged" could mean anything. I imagine he may just overvalue Odom and it was not a shot at Barnes or how much better of a player he is now then Odom ever was.

By popularity maybe, but VC was never a superstar by play, even at his peak. I don't think there was ever a season where he was high in MVP consideration, and I don't even think he managed to get himself an All-NBA first team either. Lets reserve that title for the Jokic/Giannis/Bron/Curry/Kobe/Shaq type players.

[JB7]

I think guys like Embiid and Doncic are superstars as well...maybe they don't have the title yet, but these guys are just crazy dominant. Doncic in particular is an absolute monster in the playoffs who nearly beat a healthy Kawhi/George Clippers team in 2021 at the age of 22 and was easily the best player in that series. Then in 2022 he led an underwhelming Mavs team to the conference finals and humiliated a stacked Suns team that had just made the finals. The dude is a beast.

Embiid's issue is health, but when healthy he's a top 2-3 player in the league every year.

After that I agree with you...SGA, Tatum, Edwards etc. are 1 tier below but still fantastic players who may reach that superstar level.

Isn't the greatest ability, availability? If Embiid can't make it through 4 rounds of playoffs, how can he be considered a superstar, even with how he has performed during the season, for like 60 games per season.

In terms of Doncic, it will be interesting to see if his career can be more than Harden's. Would you consider Harden a superstar? Hard to give that label, when the teams they are leading never make it to the finals. Luka is still very young, and the Mavs are building a better team around him, so there is a chance he can lead a team to the finals.

Maybe we need a new classification > regular season superstar

Fair enough with Embiid but I'll disagree on Doncic.

Harden was one of those guys couldn't elevate his play in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

Doncic, on the other hand, has been an absolute MONSTER in the playoffs. Look at this:

2020 (just 20 years old) - 31ppg, 10rpg, 9apg on 50%fg and 36%3fg.
2021 (just 21 years old) - 36ppg, 8rpg, 10apg on 49%fg and 41%3fg
2022 (just 22 years old) - 32ppg, 9rpg, 10apg on 46%fg and 35%3fg.

Really, just unbelievable. Taking the Kawhi+George Clippers in 2021 to a game 7 at just 21 years old while outplaying both of them...and then the year after just demolishing the Suns who had just made the finals the year before and were the #1 seed. The dude is an absolute stud.

Harden has never got close to that level of production in the playoffs. His efficiency plummets compared to the regular season.

Fair point on Luka. As I had mentioned previously, he is still young and has plenty of time to lead a team to the finals. I just don't know that he can be anointed a superstar if he has not done that yet.

The comparison to Harden was also about how both the Rockets teams and Mavs teams are so reliant on the one star to carry them, and whether that structure of a team can actually be successful in the playoffs. You are correct though in that Harden folded in the playoffs, which was why those Houston teams could never reach the finals. Let's see if Luka is able to lead the Mavs to the finals.

[Scase]

Lamar Odom was a flake as a basketball player and did not defend well. I hate this comparison. It is almost as bad as the Barnes/ Aaron Gordan comparison fans of other teams throw around. I know you said "super charged" but jeez man Odom was a really good role player. I have much higher hopes for Scottie. Odom never even sniffed All-Star consideration.

All depends on your definition of super charged I guess lol.

IMO a super charged VC is basically MJ, and that is definitely not a shot at MJ lol.

I find it difficult to see the comparison even with 'super charged.' MJ could actually play at a high level consistently at both ends of the floor and was actually a superstar. VC was hyped up due to his dunking (perhaps the athleticism is where the comparison comes from) and never even cracked top 5 MVP once in in his career let alone an All NBA 1st team. Such an insult to the GOAT lol

I do see what you mean when it comes to Odom and Barnes. They both posses high basketball IQ and can play on both ends of the floor (have no idea what DKB964 is referring to saying that he couldn't defend). Given the way basketball is played now and the situation Barnes is in in terms of usage, it's actually a really good comparison!

Watch on YouTube

[/youtube]

I just picked VC since the difference between him and the GOAT was mentality. They both have similarly insane athleticism and tools. Vince just didn't have the mindset, that's not an insult to MJ. The argument Duff was making is that Lamar Odom was like a dumber version of Barnes, Vince wasn't stupid, he just didn't care enough. You give VC Kobe's mentality, he's up there in the GOAT convo.

Tons of players come in with insane physical skills and lack the mental side of it, same deal with Odom vs Scottie.

[MiamiSPX]

This is wild stuff

Scottie is who he is and who he is seems to be a very genuine person who loves basketball

Why does he need to be anything else?

I mentioned more than once in the Scottie Barnes thread (much earlier versions) that I know people don't like him simply because he's not articulate and well spoken. I stand by that. I do think the Raps will approach him soon about some training on this, but I couldn't care less if he refuses or doesn't get better at it. He plays basketball for a living, it's not that serious.

[Chandan]

This is wild stuff

Scottie is who he is and who he is seems to be a very genuine person who loves basketball

Why does he need to be anything else?

I mentioned more than once in the Scottie Barnes thread (much earlier versions) that I know people don't like him simply because he's not articulate and well spoken. I stand by that. I do think the Raps will approach him soon about some training on this, but I couldn't care less if he refuses or doesn't get better at it. He plays basketball for a living, it's not that serious.

I pointed it out because there's a simple fix. Tell him once he's said all he needed to say, just stop talking and let the reporter handle the silence. It's clear as day now he feels compelled to give a lengthier answer but his mind draws blanks.
It's not that the contents of what he says is dumb. (he's programmed to give those generic sports answers anyways) he can very easily improve the way he deal with others. maybe it will teach him a thing or two with dealing with the refs on court.

He's 22. the time to soak all this in is now.

[PerfectJab]

All depends on your definition of super charged I guess lol.

IMO a super charged VC is basically MJ, and that is definitely not a shot at MJ lol.

I find it difficult to see the comparison even with 'super charged.' MJ could actually play at a high level consistently at both ends of the floor and was actually a superstar. VC was hyped up due to his dunking (perhaps the athleticism is where the comparison comes from) and never even cracked top 5 MVP once in in his career let alone an All NBA 1st team. Such an insult to the GOAT lol

I do see what you mean when it comes to Odom and Barnes. They both posses high basketball IQ and can play on both ends of the floor (have no idea what DKB964 is referring to saying that he couldn't defend). Given the way basketball is played now and the situation Barnes is in in terms of usage, it's actually a really good comparison!

Watch on YouTube

[/youtube]

I just picked VC since the difference between him and the GOAT was mentality. They both have similarly insane athleticism and tools. Vince just didn't have the mindset, that's not an insult to MJ. The argument Duff was making is that Lamar Odom was like a dumber version of Barnes, Vince wasn't stupid, he just didn't care enough. You give VC Kobe's mentality, he's up there in the GOAT convo.

Tons of players come in with insane physical skills and lack the mental side of it, same deal with Odom vs Scottie.

You give VC Kobe's mentality and he is no longer VC and as such I don't think it's fair to compare someone who is with someone who isn't especially when it's mental. As you mentioned there are plenty of people in this world with the athleticism and the body to be successful in the NBA if put in the right situation but they would need to have the mentality and luck to be in that situation to start.

VC does not have the ability to be a GOAT because he doesn't have the mind for it. MJ is the GOAT due to his mentality. You can't just take it away and say they would be the same if it weren't for it. They're such different players.

[Scase]

I find it difficult to see the comparison even with 'super charged.' MJ could actually play at a high level consistently at both ends of the floor and was actually a superstar. VC was hyped up due to his dunking (perhaps the athleticism is where the comparison comes from) and never even cracked top 5 MVP once in in his career let alone an All NBA 1st team. Such an insult to the GOAT lol

I do see what you mean when it comes to Odom and Barnes. They both posses high basketball IQ and can play on both ends of the floor (have no idea what DKB964 is referring to saying that he couldn't defend). Given the way basketball is played now and the situation Barnes is in in terms of usage, it's actually a really good comparison!

Watch on YouTube

[/youtube]

I just picked VC since the difference between him and the GOAT was mentality. They both have similarly insane athleticism and tools. Vince just didn't have the mindset, that's not an insult to MJ. The argument Duff was making is that Lamar Odom was like a dumber version of Barnes, Vince wasn't stupid, he just didn't care enough. You give VC Kobe's mentality, he's up there in the GOAT convo.

Tons of players come in with insane physical skills and lack the mental side of it, same deal with Odom vs Scottie.

You give VC Kobe's mentality and he is no longer VC and as such I don't think it's fair to compare someone who is with someone who isn't especially when it's mental. As you mentioned there are plenty of people in this world with the athleticism and the body to be successful in the NBA if put in the right situation but they would need to have the mentality and luck to be in that situation to start.

VC does not have the ability to be a GOAT because he doesn't have the mind for it. MJ is the GOAT due to his mentality. You can't just take it away and say they would be the same if it weren't for it. They're such different players.

Ok and you can't give Odom the brain of Barnes, yet here we are discussing it lol. I think you are taking this all too literally for something that is absolutely a hypothetical.