Did we give up on Banton too soon?

[brownbobcat]

I think like 99% of us (outside of maybe YP) are saying that he CAN. We just don't know until games actually start to matter again, people are slotted into their regular roles and winning matters again. That these stretches can and have regularly been false positives in terms of players.

None of Portland's games have mattered this season - and that's arguably true for 90% of the Raptors' season too. I just find it way too convenient that some think Banton's stats mean absolutely nothing but it's worthwhile talking about Gradey's 1 good month. Maybe (probably) Banton isn't 16 PPG good, but he's showing something here. I just think this blind adherence to certain archetypes is bunk, especially when you can make a very good case that the BBQ core is equally non-conventional in their own right.

Because Gradey is 20 years old, top pick in the draft and in his rookie season vs a 24 year old drafted in the late 2nd who is on his 3rd team.

The reason why people are trying to stir up this argument is to use it as fodder in their never ending anti Masai arguments.

When in reality, we just wait a year and it'll be answered. Much like Kessler is no longer a topic of never ending conversation on this board.

Former Raptors will always be discussed, I don't see how this is any different.

For the record, I don't think this is a Masai mistake because it seems probable there was some behind-the-scenes stuff and Dalano wanted to go elsewhere. Ultimately, could be the best thing for his career to get out of his hometown. The fact that he was signed and let go by a championship contender like Boston shouldn't be viewed as some huge negative.

If anything, it reveals the blinders that some people still have about this FO. Like I said earlier, it's understandable if someone's not high on Banton stat-padding on a trash team, but don't hype up Agbaji in the same breath when he's been trash on a trash team.

As for Kessler, I'd still rather have him than Thad or Poeltl.

[Duffman100]

None of Portland's games have mattered this season - and that's arguably true for 90% of the Raptors' season too. I just find it way too convenient that some think Banton's stats mean absolutely nothing but it's worthwhile talking about Gradey's 1 good month. Maybe (probably) Banton isn't 16 PPG good, but he's showing something here. I just think this blind adherence to certain archetypes is bunk, especially when you can make a very good case that the BBQ core is equally non-conventional in their own right.

Because Gradey is 20 years old, top pick in the draft and in his rookie season vs a 24 year old drafted in the late 2nd who is on his 3rd team.

The reason why people are trying to stir up this argument is to use it as fodder in their never ending anti Masai arguments.

When in reality, we just wait a year and it'll be answered. Much like Kessler is no longer a topic of never ending conversation on this board.

Former Raptors will always be discussed, I don't see how this is any different.

For the record, I don't think this is a Masai mistake because it seems probable there was some behind-the-scenes stuff and Dalano wanted to go elsewhere. Ultimately, could be the best thing for his career to get out of his hometown. The fact that he was signed and let go by a championship contender like Boston shouldn't be viewed as some huge negative.

If anything, it reveals the blinders that some people still have about this FO. Like I said earlier, it's understandable if someone's not high on Banton stat-padding on a trash team, but don't hype up Agbaji in the same breath when he's been trash on a trash team.

As for Kessler, I'd still rather have him than Thad or Poeltl.

So we shouldn’t be hopeful about the players on our team. But always long about the players we gave away.

Like when we talked Brisset at length, or Yuta, or Dowtin or.insert guy who was a flash in the pan and hasn’t done anything since.

Can we create a team of all former raptors meh prospects so people can be a fan of that team?

I don’t know if Ochai is going to be anything. But he’s got an interesting skill set. It’s not about blinders, it’s being hopeful for the team I’m a fan of.

But guess what we should before making a knee jerk reaction either way.

You guessed it. Wait.

[YogurtProducer]

Yes, he has flaws but tell me why he can't be a backup PG if he keeps improving?

I think like 99% of us (outside of maybe YP) are saying that he CAN. We just don't know until games actually start to matter again, people are slotted into their regular roles and winning matters again. That these stretches can and have regularly been false positives in terms of players.

None of Portland's games have mattered this season - and that's arguably true for 90% of the Raptors' season too. I just find it way too convenient that some think Banton's stats mean absolutely nothing but it's worthwhile talking about Gradey's 1 good month. Maybe (probably) Banton isn't 16 PPG good, but he's showing something here. I just think this blind adherence to certain archetypes is bunk, especially when you can make a very good case that the BBQ core is equally non-conventional in their own right.

Because Dick has been good at the things he is going to be asked to do in the NBA. Namely - hit 3's and cut.

Banton has been below average at things he is never going to be asked to do (be a main option) so what exactly is there to be hyped about again? You don't watch Banton and think man, he is going to be an awesome complimentary player. He doesn't do any star things good nor any complimentary things good either.

[YogurtProducer]

As for Kessler, I'd still rather have him than Thad or Poeltl.

Which is funny, because Kessler's best case is a Poeltl caliber player. I would argue if he ends up as good as Poeltl is his ceiling.

Honestly, some of you guys quote stats with an agenda without watching the game at all. There are anywhere between 250-300 rotation players in the NBA, since when is someone either a top scoring option or else 3&D?

There are a lot of different players in the NBA.

Top scoring options, playmakers, 3+d guys, rim runners, defensive specialists, rim protectors, etc.

The problem is Banton does not do any of these things good. He is a putrid playmaker and turns the ball over far to often to be a point guard (4-3 AST/TO ratio is horrible). So that takes him into being an off-ball type player. Generally an off-ball player needs to do something at a high level - defend (nope), shoot (nope), score (nope).

So really - what is Bantons role here?

[canada_dry]

Why cant we just enjoy him playing decently in a way that would not have been possible here by all accounts?

The answer to the thread is an astounding no. Its just a covert attempt at trashing the FO.

But theres also no need to trash Dalano or pray for his failure so the FO doesnt look bad. ... we should be rooting for the kid regardless of if he plays for the Raptors or not. The FO already doesn't look bad to begin with given that he needed to get out of the city. (People i know with some knowledge of the situation say that's a very safe assumption to make. Take that for what it is)

Being 6'9 with his handles is enticing. If the shots real thats a big step. If he can carve out a long career as a combo guard off the bench with that size, handles, decent shot and SOME type of playmaking and scoring ability...thats great for him. He doesn't need to be a plus minus darling to fill in that role capably. What's necessary to become that guy is reps and experience and he's getting that in Portland. If he gets really good at all those secondary skills people are mentioning hes not a rotation player in the league...hes damn near all star/all nba level. Rotation players in this league dont need to be great at any 1 thing. My ppint being Theres enough there to be hopeful about.

Im rooting for him. The silly back and forth is very real gm

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[canada_dry]

Even if banton becomes MJ it's not Masai's fault for giving up on him too early, because there is no way he would have done it here in Toronto.

Masai seriously have the easiest job in the world.

How did that end up with you criticizing him?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[brownbobcat]

Which is funny, because Kessler's best case is a Poeltl caliber player. I would argue if he ends up as good as Poeltl is his ceiling.

And on this team, I I take the 22 yr old Poeltl who is on a rookie contract and didn't cost me a lotto pick all day long.

There are a lot of different players in the NBA.

Top scoring options, playmakers, 3+d guys, rim runners, defensive specialists, rim protectors, etc.

The problem is Banton does not do any of these things good. He is a putrid playmaker and turns the ball over far to often to be a point guard (4-3 AST/TO ratio is horrible). So that takes him into being an off-ball type player. Generally an off-ball player needs to do something at a high level - defend (nope), shoot (nope), score (nope).

So really - what is Bantons role here?

Assists are not the only measure of a guard. His overall TOV% (12.5%) and TOV/USG ratio (0.5) are actually not bad. Do I think he profiles as a starter or lead guard? No, and I don't see anyone dying on that hill. I definitely see potential as a backup guard, he does actually use his length well on defense and getting better with it on offense. There's room in this league for mobile 6'9" guy who can create some mismatches and not be totally out of place on D.

Spot-up shooting is not his strength, but it's also among the easier skills to improve upon if you work at it. You're going to tell me RJ did any of those things at a high level before he got here? Please.

[Los_29]

If anyone doesn’t yet realize what goes on at the end of an NBA regular season, Malachi Flynn just scored 50 points.

Great to see Banton getting minutes but you have to make some kind of impact while on the floor. And if you’re not making an impact then you better have a skill that can allow you to stick in the league. Unfortunately Banton doesn’t have that…yet. His size and ball handling were always intriguing but it’s less intriguing at the end of his 3rd year because no improvements have been made.

52.9% TS% with zero playmaking and bad defense isn’t going to sit well with teams.

[MoneyBall]

Banton>Scoot

[Johnny Bball]

Walker Kessler is a stiff, and only starting ANY games because he's on a crap team. What are some of you even talking about. Move on to something real.

[refshateRaps]

Banton should have been developed long term.

[YogurtProducer]

Which is funny, because Kessler's best case is a Poeltl caliber player. I would argue if he ends up as good as Poeltl is his ceiling.

And on this team, I I take the 22 yr old Poeltl who is on a rookie contract and didn't cost me a lotto pick all day long.

There are a lot of different players in the NBA.

Top scoring options, playmakers, 3+d guys, rim runners, defensive specialists, rim protectors, etc.

The problem is Banton does not do any of these things good. He is a putrid playmaker and turns the ball over far to often to be a point guard (4-3 AST/TO ratio is horrible). So that takes him into being an off-ball type player. Generally an off-ball player needs to do something at a high level - defend (nope), shoot (nope), score (nope).

So really - what is Bantons role here?

Assists are not the only measure of a guard. His overall TOV% (12.5%) and TOV/USG ratio (0.5) are actually not bad. Do I think he profiles as a starter or lead guard? No, and I don't see anyone dying on that hill. I definitely see potential as a backup guard, he does actually use his length well on defense and getting better with it on offense. There's room in this league for mobile 6'9" guy who can create some mismatches and not be totally out of place on D.

Spot-up shooting is not his strength, but it's also among the easier skills to improve upon if you work at it. You're going to tell me RJ did any of those things at a high level before he got here? Please.

He isn’t a 22 year old Poeltl. He’s a 22 year old where I’d absolutely everything goes right he MIGHT be Poeltl. But I don’t see him ever being as mobile, nor as useful as a hub offensively.


He can create mismatches all he wants, he isn’t a threat to hurt teams because he has no ability to score.

Like I want Banton to be good as he would be good for our national team, but he has done nothing to suggest he will be.

RJ was 2 time the shooter Banton was before this year. RJ was shooting 34% against starters all year and always had an above average game at the rim. His issue was always shot selection.

Banton has a skill issue. Mentally he isn’t strong enough to make it for the black of skil either.

[Los_29]

Kessler doesn’t move his feet well on the perimeter and can’t do anything offensively. He just lacks IQ on the offensive end. Excellent rim protector though and that will allow him to have a career in this league. Solid situational big. It is kind of funny how much some people overhyped him last year. Dude is averaging 7 points a game. lol.

[brownbobcat]

He isn’t a 22 year old Poeltl. He’s a 22 year old where I’d absolutely everything goes right he MIGHT be Poeltl. But I don’t see him ever being as mobile, nor as useful as a hub offensively.

I'm saying I'd rather have Poeltl as he was at 22-yrs old - e.g. a lesser player, but much cheaper and better trade value.

Poeltl at 28 is undoubtedly a better player, but the wrong fit at the wrong price for this team.

He can create mismatches all he wants, he isn’t a threat to hurt teams because he has no ability to score.

Like I want Banton to be good as he would be good for our national team, but he has done nothing to suggest he will be.

RJ was 2 time the shooter Banton was before this year. RJ was shooting 34% against starters all year and always had an above average game at the rim. His issue was always shot selection.

Banton has a skill issue. Mentally he isn’t strong enough to make it for the black of skil either.

First of all, or course RJ is a better player - but let's not pretend he did very much at an elite level up until now. Before joining Toronto, he was sub 35% jump shooter for his career, definitely NOT an above-average finisher at the rim (below 60%) nor from beyond the arc.

Banton needs a lot of work, I'm not going to pretend he doesn't. But opportunity and fit matter, just like it did for RJ. Getting physically stronger and becoming a better shooter are very achievable goals if Banton works hard. If you actually watch him, you can see a lot of positives there. He's getting to the rim in half court (over 11 drives/game), his finishing is better, he doesn't get bumped as easily as before. Again, I'm not saying he's anything special, but he's right on the cusp of becoming a rotation bench player.

[brownbobcat]

Kessler doesn’t move his feet well on the perimeter and can’t do anything offensively. He just lacks IQ on the offensive end. Excellent rim protector though and that will allow him to have a career in this league. Solid situational big. It is kind of funny how much some people overhyped him last year. Dude is averaging 7 points a game. lol.

Are we comparing him to Jokic or Poeltl? The latter didn't break double-digit PPG until he was 26.

[YogurtProducer]

First of all, or course RJ is a better player - but let's not pretend he did very much at an elite level up until now. Before joining Toronto, he was sub 35% jump shooter for his career, definitely NOT an above-average finisher at the rim (below 60%) nor from beyond the arc.

Banton needs a lot of work, I'm not going to pretend he doesn't. But opportunity and fit matter, just like it did for RJ. Getting physically stronger and becoming a better shooter are very achievable goals if Banton works hard. If you actually watch him, you can see a lot of positives there. He's getting to the rim in half court (over 11 drives/game), his finishing is better, he doesn't get bumped as easily as before. Again, I'm not saying he's anything special, but he's right on the cusp of becoming a rotation bench player.

He can get to the rim all he wants - he is shooting 62% at the rim (which among qualified players, would be 201/239 - aka really bad) so no his finishing is not better (actually, the lowest of his career, which makes sense with the additional workload).

There is literally nothing suggesting he is on the cusp of becoming a rotational player. He does NOTHING at an above average level, and it honestly is debatable if he even does anything on an average level.

He is tall. That is it.

Regarding RJ - sure, but he also finished 64% at the rim last year and is at 72% in Toronto (which again, makes sense due to his role change). Not to mention, RJ is two years younger than Banton so it is entirely different to expect growth from a 23 year old who does enough to warrant starting 324 of his 325 career games, than it is from a 25 year old who can barely stay on a roster and has played next to no meaningful minutes in his career.

[Raps in 4]

At this rate, you're going to be able to make a full team of All-Stars that the Raptors gave up on too soon. Banton, Flynn, Precious. Who's next?

[brownbobcat]

First of all, or course RJ is a better player - but let's not pretend he did very much at an elite level up until now. Before joining Toronto, he was sub 35% jump shooter for his career, definitely NOT an above-average finisher at the rim (below 60%) nor from beyond the arc.

Banton needs a lot of work, I'm not going to pretend he doesn't. But opportunity and fit matter, just like it did for RJ. Getting physically stronger and becoming a better shooter are very achievable goals if Banton works hard. If you actually watch him, you can see a lot of positives there. He's getting to the rim in half court (over 11 drives/game), his finishing is better, he doesn't get bumped as easily as before. Again, I'm not saying he's anything special, but he's right on the cusp of becoming a rotation bench player.

He can get to the rim all he wants - he is shooting 62% at the rim (which among qualified players, would be 201/239 - aka really bad) so no his finishing is not better (actually, the lowest of his career, which makes sense with the additional workload).

There is literally nothing suggesting he is on the cusp of becoming a rotational player. He does NOTHING at an above average level, and it honestly is debatable if he even does anything on an average level.

He is tall. That is it.

Regarding RJ - sure, but he also finished 64% at the rim last year and is at 72% in Toronto (which again, makes sense due to his role change). Not to mention, RJ is two years younger than Banton so it is entirely different to expect growth from a 23 year old who does enough to warrant starting 324 of his 325 career games, than it is from a 25 year old who can barely stay on a roster and has played next to no meaningful minutes in his career.

What are you even talking about? Banton is 7 months older than RJ, when did he magically turn 25? If anything, the guy that gets limited minutes has gotten less opportunity to grow compared to a guy who was force-fed minutes from day 1. RJ should be miles ahead in terms of development. You like to rag on Banton's 53 TS%, but guess what RJ"s career average TS% is?

RJ was 62% at the rim this year with NYK (why aren't you calling that "really bad", hmm?) and looks like a very different player with Toronto. Banton has been shooting 65% at the rim since getting more minutes in Portland. What seems to have completely gone over your head is that I'm using RJ as an example about how fit and role matter tremendously. And if it makes a difference for a more talented player like RJ, then it makes an even bigger difference for a guy like Banton who's trying to find a place in the rotation.

[YogurtProducer]

What are you even talking about? Banton is 7 months older than RJ, when did he magically turn 25? If anything, the guy that gets limited minutes has gotten less opportunity to grow compared to a guy who was force-fed minutes from day 1. RJ should be miles ahead in terms of development. You like to rag on Banton's 53 TS%, but guess what RJ"s career average TS% is?

My bad - somehow I read his birthday as 1998, not 1999. Thats on me. Fact of the matter is he is still older than RJ.

You do realize that Barrett pre-Toronto was viewed as a negative asset and he was harped on by everyone for his lack of efficiency (including by me). He has completely changed the way he has played here (aka - to his strengths) that he always had. He completely cut out the mid range, got more off the ball (because he has that ability to), and stopped shooting as much.

Banton simply isn't able to do that. He has no where near the skill that RJ has or the feel for the game, and those are things RJ is still lacking in to. The fact Banton is another tier (or 7) below him is a bad sign.

RJ was 62% at the rim this year with NYK (why aren't you calling that "really bad", hmm?) and looks like a very different player with Toronto.

Because it was a 26 game sample, and he shot 64% the year prior, and is north of 70% now and 68% on the season. Again, I would have called that prior number bad because it was. Again, pre-Toronto RJ was not playing like he is now, which really is all that is relevant here.

Banton has been shooting 65% at the rim since getting more minutes in Portland. What seems to have completely gone over your head is that I'm using RJ as an example about how fit and role matter tremendously. And if it makes a difference for a more talented player like RJ, then it makes an even bigger difference for a guy like Banton who's trying to find a place in the rotation.

Sure - but what fit and role does Banton have is my entire point. RJ has the skills to play a backseat, but does Banton? How much of RJs success right now is due to unsustainable 3 point shooting (probably some).

The fact of the matter is that in Bantons absolute best time of his career is right now. A time in which he is playing better in all aspects and shooting from 3 at a likely unsustainable rate. Despite that - he still is near the bottom of the league in efficiency and does nothing else good.

Like seriously - what does he do good that you can actually support? Nothing?

[brownbobcat]

My bad - somehow I read his birthday as 1998, not 1999. Thats on me. Fact of the matter is he is still older than RJ.

OK, and that 7 months makes all the difference regarding potential and room for improvement? How convenient.

You do realize that Barrett pre-Toronto was viewed as a negative asset and he was harped on by everyone for his lack of efficiency (including by me). He has completely changed the way he has played here (aka - to his strengths) that he always had. He completely cut out the mid range, got more off the ball (because he has that ability to), and stopped shooting as much.

Banton simply isn't able to do that. He has no where near the skill that RJ has or the feel for the game, and those are things RJ is still lacking in to. The fact Banton is another tier (or 7) below him is a bad sign.

All of which goes to show that players can adjust in the right conditions. Banton doesn't have nearly the upside of RJ, but he can similarly improve as a bench player. If anything, it's much harder for a starter to adjust because there's nowhere to hide - you're playing against the best every night.

Because it was a 26 game sample, and he shot 64% the year prior, and is north of 70% now and 68% on the season. Again, I would have called that prior number bad because it was. Again, pre-Toronto RJ was not playing like he is now, which really is all that is relevant here.

RJ has 297 games with NYK shooting under 61% at the rim and 28 games with Toronto shooting 72% at the rim. But OK, go on about sample size.

Sure - but what fit and role does Banton have is my entire point. RJ has the skills to play a backseat, but does Banton? How much of RJs success right now is due to unsustainable 3 point shooting (probably some).

The fact of the matter is that in Bantons absolute best time of his career is right now. A time in which he is playing better in all aspects and shooting from 3 at a likely unsustainable rate. Despite that - he still is near the bottom of the league in efficiency and does nothing else good.

Like seriously - what does he do good that you can actually support? Nothing?

Every single thing you say about Banton in a backup role can be said about RJ in a starting role. RJ didn't have a single stand-out elite level skill, except maybe size at the 2.

Is he an elite shooter? Elite athlete? Handle? Finisher? Passer? Defender? No, no, no, no, no and no. RJ's 28 games with Toronto is by far the absolute best stretch of his career. A time in which he is playing better in all aspects and shooting from 3 at a likely unsustainable rate.

Again, the bar for Banton isn't being a starter.