GT#69 - Kings @ Raps - Wed Mar 20, 2024 - 7:30 PM EDT - TSN/1050AM

[billy_hoyle]

How is Fred not a winner? Look at his plus minus and on/off plus minus for his entire career.

Did I just not explain why the +/- made Fred and Poeltl look more important than they actually are? Building teams where the team only has 1 PG and 1 C creates an overreliance on them. Both are good players but look better using on/off splits because of the above.

This has gone done an almost conspiratorial rabbit hole. How could you compare one of the lowest usage, most efficient players in the whole league to Fred? Built around Poeltl? What is going on?

Well defense at the 5 spot is pretty darn important. Not having any alternative 5 would absolutely bias his + -.

[Tor_Raps]

How is Fred not a winner? Look at his plus minus and on/off plus minus for his entire career.

Did I just not explain why the +/- made Fred and Poeltl look more important than they actually are? Building teams where the team only has 1 PG and 1 C creates an overreliance on them. Both are good players but look better using on/off splits because of the above.

This has gone done an almost conspiratorial rabbit hole. How could you compare one of the lowest usage, most efficient players in the whole league to Fred? Built around Poeltl? What is going on?

LOL this is what the current iteration of the Raptors is doing to me. My whole messaging in the game thread was one big rabbit hole lol.

Back to the point, it was just to show that on/off stats can make a player look better than they truly are if the roster construction is flawed. I've spent too much time here for this team today. Thanks for saving me, Gnite lol

[Tor_Raps]

Did I just not explain why the +/- made Fred and Poeltl look more important than they actually are? Building teams where the team only has 1 PG and 1 C creates an overreliance on them. Both are good players but look better using on/off splits because of the above.

This has gone done an almost conspiratorial rabbit hole. How could you compare one of the lowest usage, most efficient players in the whole league to Fred? Built around Poeltl? What is going on?

Well defense at the 5 spot is pretty darn important. Not having any alternative 5 would absolutely bias his + -.

Ya... thats all my point was. It turned into a whole bigger thing for no reason lol.

[PushDaRock]

Who else on Houston is a real PG? The Raptors had a great bench mob where he also played with Siakam/Poeltl.

Again, I actually like Poeltl and also like Fred when he's used correctly. Fred took a lot of heat last year when the reality was we were overly reliant on him to a fault. That's all I'm trying to say here. My comment shouldn't have talked to him about not being a winner, instead he wasn't as good as his on/off splits suggested.

I mean what you're saying isn't supported by numbers so it's really an opinion that is unsupported.

Ok rank Poeltl and Fred at their respective positions. Clearly you think both are very good players. My point was simply that the on/off numbers would make both guys look better than they truly are because of the teams deficiencies overall.

That's kind of the point to those on/off metrics is that they're better than what those players would rank individually.

Again, the numbers say otherwise because he has a track record of excellent on/off splits and he's done it in multiple types of situations where he's played with an excellent PG and also in situations where he hasn't so your opinion is just not based on stats.

You say the bench mob inflated his numbers, but one comparison to make is to Delon's on/off splits. They both played with the bench mob so if Fred's numbers are inflated, they should have similar on/off splits right? Yeah, not the case at all. In the 17/18 season, Fred was a +7.0 and Delon +0.5 in on/off. In the 18/19 season, Fred was +4.1 and Delon -11.8.